Utah And Marital Affairs

[Kenngo1969]

... All things being equal, Utah's prominence in this ranking is probably overstated.

 

 

Ya think?

 

Of course this doesn't fit the narrative of those who like to attack Mormons or tribal Mormons who like to point out they are better than "Utah Mormons."

 

And something else occurs to me: Often, we're told how cliquish and clannish and all up in everybody's business Mormons (especially Utah Mormons) are.  How is the sort of schadenfreude being engaged in here, at least some of which is being indulged in by non-Utah Mormons, any different, just because of quasi-anonymity and the fact that it's an electronic medium?  "Oh, but it's okay when I do it!  It's just those D*** Utah Mormons that are the problem!"

 

[rockpond]

I agree with that. I have no problem with exposing such hypocrisy as Josh Duggar's. If you're going to make a living accusing other people of destroying marriage, you ought to be called on the carpet if you're doing stuff like this. I don't know that it tells us a lot about Utah or Mormons, really.

 

And I agree with HJW. It's a despicable and sad site. 

 

It's a horrible site.  Shocking to me that someone can create such a site and still sleep at night.

[ALarson]

It's a horrible site.  Shocking to me that someone can create such a site and still sleep at night.

At least this is something we can all agree on here.  I'd imagine they'll be out of business now?  Who would join them after this???

[KevinG]

At least this is something we can all agree on here.  I'd imagine they'll be out of business now?  Who would join them after this???

 

They have had scandals before and survived them.  These people sleep well at night on piles and piles of Canadian Dollars.

 

I have no desire to even look at their site and give them more clicks.  As many people will join them as will leave them over this I would guess.

[jkwilliams]

And the #1 lesson here is keep your family off of reality TV.  

 

I would say the lesson is more that you shouldn't hold yourself up as a defender of morality if you're not actually a moral person. It would be like condemning the use of marijuana while you're buying prescription drugs off a street dealer.

[jkwilliams]

It's a horrible site.  Shocking to me that someone can create such a site and still sleep at night.

 

Just the phrase "guaranteed affair" turns my stomach. 

[rockpond]

So we are discussing.  Would you care to share what you think the data means?  What did your "smell of hypocrisy" statement refer to if not the highly LDS represented Utah citizenry?

 

(Some people use statistics like a drunk uses a lightpost - more for support than illumination).

 

I do find the stats in the article illuminating.

 

And I think I've made comments about what they could possibly indicate and why they are upsetting to me.

[KevinG]

I would say the lesson is more that you shouldn't hold yourself up as a defender of morality if you're not actually a moral person. It would be like condemning the use of marijuana while you're buying prescription drugs off a street dealer.

 

Good point.  I'm just content to keep my family anonymous and let my actions preach louder than my words.  Its easier to repent of my own hypocrisy if I haven't been shooting my mouth off in public about how great I am.

[Calm]

It doesn't say anything about any individual. It says something about the state.

Do they post use by location?

There could be parts of the state where use is heavy (I would in fact expect this as friends share info with each other) and areas where it is nonexistent.

Also does it require proof one is married?**** Does it show usage by age? And is it purely hetersexual singling pairing (provides only one to one male female relationships) or open to all kinds?

Not making any suggestions here, just wondering the range of information it supplies.

from BD's site:

"Some said they had signed up when single looking for a no-strings-attached fling or just out of curiosity."

Edited August 21, 2015 by calmoriah

[BlueDreams]

Way to go Utah! Outspoken protectors of the sanctity of marriage.  You have the eighth highest rate of paid users on the (recently hacked) website Ashley Madison.  (A site that helps married people find other married people to have affairs with.)

 

Here's the article & data:  http://fusion.net/story/185853/the-united-states-of-ashley-madison/

According to the article, the percentage of users to the overarching population for Jersey is .82%....ie less than 1% of the adult population of jersey are subscribers. In Utah, it's about .66%....needless to say the range is is also pretty measly between states. . Minus the obvious factors of disposable income and some of their problems with the easy stats....I don't think .66% of a population using these sites equal some form of rampant duplicity within the overarching population. That percentage is so small, there's statistically more people with schizophrenia running around UT than Ashley Madison paid subscribers.

 

Also you could easily assume a narrative that does not assert hypocrisy (minus the cheaters, if they profess to condone fidelity and marital sanctity (I've met Utahn's who don't). My guess is that because of the culture/state that places a high value on fidelity and can have some severe repercussions if you are found cheating (religious, social, etc), those who decide to cheat in a way that AM targets are going to exhibit some hiding behaviors. Ironically, it could be because the general populace values fidelity and the "sanctity of marriage" that a small incongruent subset are driven to anonymous websites.

 

One last thing, that stats don't give a reason or look into why they chose to subscribe in the first place, whether they were still actively using the site (or cheating), etc. See here for examples of just how varied users are in their actual backstory..

 

With luv,

BD

[KevinG]

I do find the stats in the article illuminating.

 

And I think I've made comments about what they could possibly indicate and why they are upsetting to me.

 

Please elucidate...  why does this one number about an affair website subscription rate in Utah upset you?  You have given me the impression that you blame Utah citizens who support heterosexual monogamy with hypocrisy over this issue.  I'm not sure that is a safe conclusion given the paucity of data.  And instead of continuing to say "answered" could you actually answer one of my questions about your statement?

[ttribe]

Meh, too many variables.  I don't know that there are any meaningful inferences to draw from this information.

[bluebell]

It's a horrible site. Shocking to me that someone can create such a site and still sleep at night.

Have you ever seen their commercials? Their whole angle is that having an affair can actually help your marriage.

It's amazing how good humans are at justifying evil.

[KevinG]

Here is my list of unanswered questions on this thread just to keep things simple.

 

• Just what conclusions can you draw from the number of pay for adultery website members of any given state?
• Can you verify that the rate among faithful Latter-day Saints is higher or lower than the average population?
• Can you verify that those who are "outspoken protectors of the sanctity of marriage" (Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims...) are among those raising the rates so high?
• Is there any correlation between those advocating for a one man/one woman marriage definition and the Ashley Madison list?
• What percentage of Mormons are saying gays are destroying marriage?
• What did your (Rockponds) "smell of hypocrisy" statement refer to if not the highly LDS represented Utah citizenry?

[jkwilliams]

Have you ever seen their commercials? Their whole angle is that having an affair can actually help your marriage.

It's amazing how good humans are at justifying evil.

 

I don't see how having an affair helps with anything. If you're that unhappy in your marriage, going elsewhere for sex would just magnify the problems. Yeah, it's just an excuse for people to do what they want. 

[BlueDreams]

I don't see how having an affair helps with anything. If you're that unhappy in your marriage, going elsewhere for sex would just magnify the problems. Yeah, it's just an excuse for people to do what they want. 

 

Oddly enough, I have seen couples where an affair helped....not so oddly, I would not suggest doing so in any marriage and these marriages that it "helped" were often pretty shoddy to begin with....the affair acted as a wake up call that things need to change for them to last. 

[Calm]

"Ashley Madison did not validate account email addresses. It is quite possible someone else accidentally or deliberately registered using your email address rather than their own."

I wonder how many of the unpaid names were used by someone else. I wonder if you could be a paid member with someone else's email...do they just need a valid credit card for payment, do they send any info to the email account?

I cannot imagine why anyone would not create a unique and random email for this purpose at least.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I bring it up because I am tired of Mormons who blame gays for "destroying marriage".  I think we should be working on our own marriages rather than telling other loving couples that they shouldn't be allowed the privilege.  Does this Ashley Madison info tell us a whole lot?  No.  But it is one data point.

This is a straw man Gays are only part of the issue. And it is not gays per se that is the issue. IT is the degradation of marriage as an institution that is the real issue. This website is one of the symptoms. You really think accepting gay marriage is going to help win the battle?

[Walden]

Its always fun to judge a religion/culture/people by those who fail to uphold their standards.

 

So what is the recommendation?

 

Do away with standards of behavior or encourage people to adhere to them more faithfully?

 

I predict an uptick in those who are excommunicated because the church is out to get them.

 

Here's a recommendation....instead of demanding all members give all of their time, talent and efforts to fighting things like gay marriage rights, because of it's supposed threat to family values and the very fabric of the nuclear family, why doesn't the church instead focus that all time, talent and efforts getting their own houses in order with regard to family values.

 

Looks like instead of spending time organizing to rally against other's people's marriage rights, in the effort to "preserve the family," members might be better served attending some couples counseling or marriage therapy to work on their own marriages.

[jkwilliams]

Oddly enough, I have seen couples where an affair helped....not so oddly, I would not suggest doing so in any marriage and these marriages that it "helped" were often pretty shoddy to begin with....the affair acted as a wake up call that things need to change for them to last. 

 

OK, I can see that, but it's not something you would do deliberately to improve your marriage. That's a lot of BS.

[Calm]

"Having seen a lot of this data first hand, I would not say this is the cleanest data set in the world. We know a few sources of error. One, we de-duped on a state-by-state basis, so there are probably some users who paid from different states, and therefore are showing up on two states’ counts here. Two, many people paid with gift cards, and so their addresses could be completely false. Three, there are clearly a lot of made-up addresses in the data."

It would be interesting to rate the states chosen to be used for made up addresses as well as finding the percentage of made up addresses per state and which states used more made up addresses.

I think it would be more relevant to break stuff down by county rather than state. There is a huge variation among Californians depending on where one lives...or used to be when I was growing up there. It seems unfair to tarnish or approve an entire state when it is only a limited part of it demonstrating the actual behaviour, good or bad.

[Kenngo1969]

... (I)nstead of continuing to say "answered" could you actually answer one of my questions about your statement?

"Objection, Your Honor!  He's badgering the witness!"

 

What?

 

Oh, sorry.  

 

I guess you can keep the law graduate out of the law, but you can't keep the law out of the graduate!

 

Carry on!

[KevinG]

Here's a recommendation....instead of demanding all members give all of their time, talent and efforts to fighting things like gay marriage rights, because of it's supposed threat to family values and the very fabric of the nuclear family, why doesn't the church instead focus that all time, talent and efforts getting their own houses in order with regard to family values.

 

Looks like instead of spending time organizing to rally against other's people's marriage rights, in the effort to "preserve the family," members might be better served attending some couples counseling or marriage therapy to work on their own marriages.

 

Speaking as a faithful husband and someone who disagreed with the Churches political stance on Proposition 8...

 

You are deflecting.

 

But I will answer.  First the church did not "demand" we spent time fighting gay rights.  They requested members stand up for traditional marriage during the Prop 8 debate.  A political stance I was uncomfortable with, and voluntarily chose not to take sides on.

 

Second, The amount of time the LDS Church authorities have spent on fidelity in marriage, eschewing pornography, chastity, et al. is huge compared to any time, talent and energy put into the gay marriage debate.  

 

I agree we need to clean up our own house first.  But the false equivocation and charges of hypocrisy are disproportionate and undeserved.

Edited August 21, 2015 by KevinG

[jkwilliams]

"Ashley Madison did not validate account email addresses. It is quite possible someone else accidentally or deliberately registered using your email address rather than their own."

I wonder how many of the unpaid names were used by someone else. I wonder if you could be a paid member with someone else's email...do they just need a valid credit card for payment, do they send any info to the email account?

I cannot imagine why anyone would not create a unique and random email for this purpose at least.

 

I have a little experience with this in that someone signed up for a couple of rather unpleasant "hookup" type sites using the email address associated with my blog, which I, unsurprisingly, use only for communication related to my blog. I found out about it because someone apparently mentioned it in a private email conversation with a number of participants. I can only assume it was meant to smear me. Anyway, I am therefore more skeptical of email addresses that might show up on Ashley Madison that are not associated with paid users, because you have no idea if they really are that person. 

[ALarson]

I think it would be more relevant to break stuff down by county rather than state. There is a huge variation among Californians depending on where one lives...or used to be when I was growing up there. It seems unfair to tarnish or approve an entire state when it is only a limited part of it demonstrating the actual behaviour, good or bad.

It was broken down by cities (back in 2012), but I still don't know how accurate this is (given your details above):

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-popular-city-cheating-ashley-madison-2012-2#ixzz3jRGGjwfT

 

 

The 10 cities with the most Ashley Madison members per capita are:

1. Washington, D.C. 

2. San Antonio, Texas 

3. Phoenix 

4. Salt Lake City
5. Oklahoma City, Okla. 

6. Pittsburgh
7. Boston
8. Chicago 

9. Dallas
10. Orlando, Fla. 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2015 by ALarson