filovirus Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 It's really frustrating when people respond to that with "You were lazy and intransigent. You would have known about this if you had been more diligent." Lots of people are finding out the "non-simplified version" these days, and not all of them are leaving the church. It's a big mistake to assume that the difference is that those who struggle enough to leave are somehow less faithful or want to sin or were never fully converted, though I've heard all three of these excuses in the last few days. It's just not helpful.People are leaving because they are directing their faith to the wrong things and aren't self-aware enough to notice it.If this bit of history crashes someone's faith, I believe they missed out on the faith they were supposed to direct to God's omnipotence.
rockpond Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 It was enough (hopefully) to teach you the things you needed to be converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ, a which is what you were there for!!! If you were there to get history degree, you could have reason to complain. You're moving the goal post. I never asked for a history degree. I did, however, anticipate that I was being taught the full truth regarding the coming forth of the keystone of our religion. 1
Zakuska Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) You're moving the goal post. I never asked for a history degree. I did, however, anticipate that I was being taught the full truth regarding the coming forth of the keystone of our religion.So because the pictures in the book didn't fully disclose the process you get offended? Talking about making People offenders for a word. (Isaiah 29:21) Edited August 12, 2015 by Zakuska 1
HappyJackWagon Posted August 12, 2015 Author Posted August 12, 2015 You're moving the goal post. I never asked for a history degree. I did, however, anticipate that I was being taught the full truth regarding the coming forth of the keystone of our religion.Or at the very least the "full truth" as the church knew it. Rockpond, you made the mistake of trusting what the church told you. According to Danzo you should have known the church was inept at conveying accurate information. You should have known that you needed to search out additional, non-church sources to get the real story. Silly, Rockpond. 3
JulieM Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 People are leaving because they are directing their faith to the wrong things.....Like expecting to have been taught the truth? 3
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) It's not as if everyone who doesn't like the typical LDS response to issues like translating the BoM go running to you. Some might, I suppose, but even if they go to you it's not as if you are their only source. And with that all said, you're as harmless as they can get anyway. The more sources people consult the better. But certainly there will always be a number of people who will leave over something they learn in history. no one will ever stop that. I was just saying that I get contacted by people all the time who were dismissed and attacked for being lazy or stupid because they believed what the church taught them about its history. No, I am not their only source, or even a main source. I'm just saying that they wouldn't be approaching people like me if they were treated better by believers. Edited August 12, 2015 by jkwilliams 3
SteveO Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 2 weeks ago we had a gospel doctrine lesson referencing the PoGP. The instructor talked about how even the elements, rocks, water etc. were more faithful in "choosing" to obey God, than we are. Good grief. There's a good reason the church is allowing distance to grow between members and usage of the PoGP and the racist teachings are not the only reason.Mmhmm. I'll still maintain that your experience is the exception and not te rule. The fact that my beliefs are usually articulated by non Mormons include the phrase "you get your own planet right?"Tell me that isn't the result of casting pearls before swine...
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 People are leaving because they are directing their faith to the wrong things and aren't self-aware enough to notice it. If this bit of history crashes someone's faith, I believe they missed out on the faith they were supposed to direct to God's omnipotence. You'll never know why people are leaving unless you ask them and try to understand. This dismissive attitude doesn't help anyone. 3
HappyJackWagon Posted August 12, 2015 Author Posted August 12, 2015 Mmhmm. I'll still maintain that your experience is the exception and not te rule. The fact that my beliefs are usually articulated by non Mormons include the phrase "you get your own planet right?"Tell me that isn't the result of casting pearls before swine...We don't believe in getting our own planets anymore. Check out the essay. So there are no pearls to toss out to the swine on that one. 2
rockpond Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 So because the pictures in the book didn't fully disclose the process you get offended? Talking about making People offenders for a word. (Isaiah 29:21) Who said I was offended? And the pictures are only part of it. 2
filovirus Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Like expecting to have been taught the truth?The church is here to teach the truths of the Gospel. So yes.
HappyJackWagon Posted August 12, 2015 Author Posted August 12, 2015 You'll never know why people are leaving unless you ask them and try to understand. This dismissive attitude doesn't help anyone.What we see here on this site, and in the church at large, is a bunker mentality. Keep your head low so you don't lose your faith and deny, deny, deny. Well crafted denials can go far and if you don't have a well crafted one, go with anything that pops into your head. 3
Storm Rider Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Poppycock. You were taught the truth regarding the restoration of the gospel and the translation of the Book of Mormon. This quaint little diatribe of "woe is me", "I did know every jot and tittle" is all a red herring and each of you know it. The Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God; if you know that then you know the history. To say otherwise is to swallow the red herring and willfully go against the God. These like little children yammering about not getting their ice cream when they want it and exactly in their own specific bowl. The Church of Jesus Christ has a single purpose and it has tried to do that from the time of Christ to the time of the restoration until today. You might want to whine about it, complain about how things don't meet your chosen standards, but that is a personal problem. If someone wants to fall away the reasons are endless and without number. You need to decide what you want; to follow Christ or not. Make your choice then then follow through with it. All the belly aching is just tiresome.
Zakuska Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Poppycock. You were taught the truth regarding the restoration of the gospel and the translation of the Book of Mormon. This quaint little diatribe of "woe is me", "I did know every jot and tittle" is all a red herring and each of you know it. The Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God; if you know that then you know the history. To say otherwise is to swallow the red herring and willfully go against the God. These like little children yammering about not getting their ice cream when they want it and exactly in their own specific bowl. The Church of Jesus Christ has a single purpose and it has tried to do that from the time of Christ to the time of the restoration until today. You might want to whine about it, complain about how things don't meet your chosen standards, but that is a personal problem. If someone wants to fall away the reasons are endless and without number. You need to decide what you want; to follow Christ or not. Make your choice then then follow through with it. All the belly aching is just tiresome. Reminds me of what Paul had to put up with. So much so that "All in Asia turned away from him". Edited August 12, 2015 by Zakuska
Popular Post jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2015 Popular Post Posted August 12, 2015 What we see here on this site, and in the church at large, is a bunker mentality. Keep your head low so you don't lose your faith and deny, deny, deny. Well crafted denials can go far and if you don't have a well crafted one, go with anything that pops into your head. I never felt lied to or deceived, but I certainly understand why some people do. I will have to bow out of this thread, as I'm starting to get a little angry at the contempt and dismissiveness people have toward those who are really struggling and hurting. I don't understand it, but maybe part of it is what you say. I don't know. 5
HappyJackWagon Posted August 12, 2015 Author Posted August 12, 2015 Poppycock. You were taught the truth regarding the restoration of the gospel and the translation of the Book of Mormon. This quaint little diatribe of "woe is me", "I did know every jot and tittle" is all a red herring and each of you know it. The Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God; if you know that then you know the history. To say otherwise is to swallow the red herring and willfully go against the God. These like little children yammering about not getting their ice cream when they want it and exactly in their own specific bowl. The Church of Jesus Christ has a single purpose and it has tried to do that from the time of Christ to the time of the restoration until today. You might want to whine about it, complain about how things don't meet your chosen standards, but that is a personal problem. If someone wants to fall away the reasons are endless and without number. You need to decide what you want; to follow Christ or not. Make your choice then then follow through with it. All the belly aching is just tiresome. I enjoy your cockamamie usage of Poppycock. Fun words. I would suggest that if the church does not want to be held accountable for teaching a false history, they should stop teaching history. Otherwise, the history and truth claims that are a part of that history will continue to be studied and yes, I will complain when I discover they have taught me incorrectly. I expect more from my church. If they are too inept to handle that, they should stop trying. Teach the principles of the gospel only. That would work for me. 3
stemelbow Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I was just saying that I get contacted by people all the time who were dismissed and attacked for being lazy or stupid because they believed what the church taught them about its history. No, I am not their only source, or even a main source. I'm just saying that they wouldn't be approaching people like me if they were treated better by believers. I would suggest you may still be approached, though.
Danzo Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Maybe you should only speak for yourself regarding what you are or are "not completely sure of". You seem pretty sure of yourself. did you find the security camera footage that recorded the translation process?
ALarson Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I enjoy your cockamamie usage of Poppycock. Fun words. I would suggest that if the church does not want to be held accountable for teaching a false history, they should stop teaching history. Otherwise, the history and truth claims that are a part of that history will continue to be studied and yes, I will complain when I discover they have taught me incorrectly. I expect more from my church. If they are too inept to handle that, they should stop trying. Teach the principles of the gospel only. That would work for me.I agree, well stated. 1
Danzo Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 You're moving the goal post. I never asked for a history degree. I did, however, anticipate that I was being taught the full truth regarding the coming forth of the keystone of our religion. Get used to disappointment. There is no such thing as the "full truth" on any event that happened in the past. All you can get are interpretations. History is always being rewritten. 2
ALarson Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Poppycock. You were taught the truth regarding the restoration of the gospel and the translation of the Book of Mormon.No, I was not taught the truth regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon. If you were, kudos to your past Primary, Sunday School, Seminary teachers, etc., in your ward. Where and when did you learn about the seer stone and how Joseph used it to translate the Book of Mormon (head in the hat)? (Sincere question) Edited August 12, 2015 by ALarson
Danzo Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 The church is here to teach the truths of the Gospel. So yes. But they didn't teach you the color of Joseph Smith's shirt, did they? This proves the church was embarrassed by the truth and is deliberately allowing its poor members to be lead astray . . .
Storm Rider Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 No, I was not taught the truth regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon. If you were, kudos to your past Primary, Sunday School, Seminary teachers, etc., in your ward. Where and when did you learn about the seer stone and how Joseph used it to translate the Book of Mormon (head in the hat)? (Sincere question) This is the red herring. What did Joseph about how the record was translated? Exactly. That was what I was taught. If this was a sincere question, you would have your answer, but your focus is not the answer, but the red herring you are chasing. You have not yet described each and every method used by Joseph in the translation process. Why? Do any of the forms you know of deny that the record was not translated by the gift and power of God? If not, then what in heavens are you whining about? You need a reason for your unbelief; pick one, it does not matter what it is because all of them are just excuses for unbelief. I don't really know why some people hem and haw so much; just choose not to believe or choose to believe. One either has faith or one doesn't. How was the Book of Mormon translated? By the power of God. What else do you need to know? I have heard a lot of ways and not a single one of them answers it better than what I just stated.
Danzo Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 No, I was not taught the truth regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon. If you were, kudos to your past Primary, Sunday School, Seminary teachers, etc., in your ward. And you still don't know the whole truth. You wont be taught it. And you won't ever know in this life. All we have are a handful of recollections that don't always agree with each other.
HappyJackWagon Posted August 12, 2015 Author Posted August 12, 2015 But they didn't teach you the color of Joseph Smith's shirt, did they? This proves the church was embarrassed by the truth and is deliberately allowing its poor members to be lead astray . . .Such a stupid comment. I'm done with this thread. Too bad I don't have the cred to lock my own threads 2
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