Dishonesty

[jkwilliams]

I enjoy your cockamamie usage of Poppycock. Fun words.

 

I would suggest that if the church does not want to be held accountable for teaching a false history, they should stop teaching history. Otherwise, the history and truth claims that are a part of that history will continue to be studied and yes, I will complain when I discover they have taught me incorrectly. I expect more from my church. If they are too inept to handle that, they should stop trying. Teach the principles of the gospel only. That would work for me.

This is a much kinder response than I came up with. I never imagined I'd meet Mormons who are happy to push people out the door. I need to remember that the Mormons I know would not agree with the attacks on the struggling, One of my kids just read some of this thread and said, "Dad, you really need to get away from such a negative environment. It can't be helping you at all." She's probably right,

[stemelbow]

This is the red herring.  What did Joseph about how the record was translated?  Exactly.  That was what I was taught.  If this was a sincere question, you would have your answer, but your focus is not the answer, but the red herring you are chasing.  You have not yet described each and every method used by Joseph in the translation process.  Why?  Do any of the forms you know of deny that the record was not translated by the gift and power of God?  

 

If not, then what in heavens are you whining about?  You need a reason for your unbelief; pick one, it does not matter what it is because all of them are just excuses for unbelief.  I don't really know why some people hem and haw so much; just choose not to believe or choose to believe.  One either has faith or one doesn't.  

 

How was the Book of Mormon translated?  By the power of God.  What else do you need to know?  I have heard a lot of ways and not a single one of them answers it better than what I just stated.

What else do we need to know? My goodness all we have is stuff we need to know. We can start by knowing what it means to "translate" by the power of God? Does that mean the translation is perfect?

[Zakuska]

But they didn't teach you the color of Joseph Smith's shirt, did they?

 

This proves the church was embarrassed by the truth and is deliberately allowing  its poor members to be lead astray . . .

Rep points for that one.

[ALarson]

Such a stupid comment.

 

I'm done with this thread. Too bad I don't have the cred to lock my own threads

I agree with your evaluation of his comments.

 

I think you can PM a moderator and request that your thread be locked.   Does anyone know if that is correct?

[stemelbow]

And you still don't know the whole truth. You wont be taught it.  And you won't ever know in this life.  All we have are a handful of recollections that don't always agree with each other.

So are you advocating, since we can't know with certainty all things, we ought to just toss our hands up and give up? You seem to now be attacking the desire people have to learn and grow, at this point...which just seems silly, no?

[ALarson]

Rep points for that one.

Seriously?  Wow.

[jkwilliams]

Such a stupid comment.

 

I'm done with this thread. Too bad I don't have the cred to lock my own threads

Me too. I'm going to take my LDS daughter's advice.

[Storm Rider]

Reminds me of what Paul had to put up with. So much so that "All in Asia turned away from him".

 

It is just so grating.  They whine and then pat themselves on the back and fall back on stereotypes, then whine, then pat each other again, and then back to repeating stereotypes, and so it goes.  If God himself was to strike them nearly dead they would recover, stand up, and begin whining again.  They are no more interested in answers than they are in having faith.  Their eyes see, but their mind is blind.  

 

It makes me wonder how and why these individuals live. or why they want to live the way they do.  Choose!  Shut up and choose.  Then move forward, don't look back, be who you want to be and quit your whining.  Who allowed them to grow up and still whine so much.  It is hard for me to think that their parents or spouse would tolerate so much whining.   Just walking around with a chip on your shoulder and constant harping; it is just really pitiful. 

[ALarson]

This is the red herring.  What did Joseph about how the record was translated?  Exactly.  That was what I was taught.  If this was a sincere question, you would have your answer, but your focus is not the answer, but the red herring you are chasing.  You have not yet described each and every method used by Joseph in the translation process.  Why?  Do any of the forms you know of deny that the record was not translated by the gift and power of God?  

 

If not, then what in heavens are you whining about?  You need a reason for your unbelief; pick one, it does not matter what it is because all of them are just excuses for unbelief.  I don't really know why some people hem and haw so much; just choose not to believe or choose to believe.  One either has faith or one doesn't.  

 

How was the Book of Mormon translated?  By the power of God.  What else do you need to know?  I have heard a lot of ways and not a single one of them answers it better than what I just stated.  

So, you don't want to answer my question?  I understand.

 

You said you were taught the truth regarding the Book of Mormon translation.  I asked you when you learned about the seer stone and Joseph putting it in his hat.  How is that a red herring?

 

And, of course you do not need to answer my question, but I sincerely wanted to know the answer.

Edited August 12, 2015 by ALarson

[stemelbow]

It is just so grating.  They whine and then pat themselves on the back and fall back on stereotypes, then whine, then pat each other again, and then back to repeating stereotypes, and so it goes.  If God himself was to strike them nearly dead they would recover, stand up, and begin whining again.  They are no more interested in answers than they are in having faith.  Their eyes see, but their mind is blind.  

 

It makes me wonder how and why these individuals live. or why they want to live the way they do.  Choose!  Shut up and choose.  Then move forward, don't look back, be who you want to be and quit your whining.  Who allowed them to grow up and still whine so much.  It is hard for me to think that their parents or spouse would tolerate so much whining.   Just walking around with a chip on your shoulder and constant harping; it is just really pitiful.

Odd that your posts come off as childish whining, all while you whine about others supposedly whining.

It's like "they" are bad because they disagree with you and have interest in history, or something.

[Zakuska]

It is just so grating.  They whine and then pat themselves on the back and fall back on stereotypes, then whine, then pat each other again, and then back to repeating stereotypes, and so it goes.  If God himself was to strike them nearly dead they would recover, stand up, and begin whining again.  They are no more interested in answers than they are in having faith.  Their eyes see, but their mind is blind.  

 

It makes me wonder how and why these individuals live. or why they want to live the way they do.  Choose!  Shut up and choose.  Then move forward, don't look back, be who you want to be and quit your whining.  Who allowed them to grow up and still whine so much.  It is hard for me to think that their parents or spouse would tolerate so much whining.   Just walking around with a chip on your shoulder and constant harping; it is just really pitiful. 

 

It's the modern day Entitlement Generation to blame.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Zakuska

[rockpond]

Get used to disappointment.  There is no such thing as the "full truth" on any event that happened in the past. All you can get are interpretations.  History is always being rewritten.

 

Right, because what we're talking about here is just some event that happened in the past.

 

Can you at least fathom why this new acknowledgement by the Church is problematic for many members?

[Danzo]

So are you advocating, since we can't know with certainty all things, we ought to just toss our hands up and give up? You seem to now be attacking the desire people have to learn and grow, at this point...which just seems silly, no?

I am advocating a little humility when it comes to studying history. We don't need to attribute false motives to those who view it differently. 

We can accept new info and still keep in mind that others may be relying on different info.  True, some of their info may be outdated, but soon the info we have will be outdated.

I am pretty sure some of the history that I am now sure of will someday be considered unreliable, but that does not mean that I am trying to be deceitful right now.

[Storm Rider]

This is a much kinder response than I came up with. I never imagined I'd meet Mormons who are happy to push people out the door. I need to remember that the Mormons I know would not agree with the attacks on the struggling, One of my kids just read some of this thread and said, "Dad, you really need to get away from such a negative environment. It can't be helping you at all." She's probably right,

 

 

Isn't that sweet.  I am not happy to push anyone out the door, but if you are on the way out, don't let the door hit you on the way out.  However, what I am happy to do is draw a line for you.  Choose, don't whine, choose.  It is not hard, choose.  Quit whining, quit belly aching, choose.  I don't have the time nor the patience to read your incessant whining.  Choose and then be happy with your choice.  Move forward with confidence that you are doing what you want to do and others are doing the same thing.  

 

It is the whining that is so pitiful.  You can create all the stories you want as to why you choose, but just choose and be happy.  I hope you choose the right path, but it is no one else's choice but yours.  

 

Whining is not struggling; whining is what each of you are doing repeatedly, incessantly, and without any degree of reflection.  There is no searching for answers; in fact, you reject all answers.  You want it your way and because God has not given it to you your way you want to whine.  Stop whining about it and either follow God or not.  Do whatever makes you happy. 

 

This is not rocket science.  This is fundamental lessons on life.  

[Zakuska]

I am advocating a little humility when it comes to studying history. We don't need to attribute false motives to those who view it differently. 

We can accept new info and still keep in mind that others may be relying on different info.  True, some of their info may be outdated, but soon the info we have will be outdated.

I am pretty sure some of the history that I am now sure of will someday be considered unreliable, but that does not mean that I am trying to be deceitful right now.

 

AMEN to that.

 

What would Christ say?

 

Luke 3:9

Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Zakuska

[ALarson]

Isn't that sweet.  I am not happy to push anyone out the door, but if you are on the way out, don't let the door hit you on the way out. 

 

I'm sure that's exactly what Christ would say, right?    

Edited August 12, 2015 by ALarson

[Storm Rider]

Odd that your posts come off as childish whining, all while you whine about others supposedly whining.

It's like "they" are bad because they disagree with you and have interest in history, or something.

 

You are so cute when you do this; it is standard procedure.  There is no disagreement between us; at least I haven't seen anything.  What I see are people wallowing in misery and wanting to whine about being in slop, but doing nothing to get out of the pigpen.  If you want to be happy, then be happy.  If you want to have faith then seek after being a person of faith.  If you don't then don't seek after it.  If you want to be a humanist, then go for it.  Whatever you choose, go your best, give it your all. 

 

Life is too precious to waste in whining about it.  Choose.  

[filovirus]

I'm bowing out of this thread.

My personal belief is this: The church is here to teach the Gospel of Christ and the path we must be on to endure to the end. That is exactly what it is doing. The BOM was translated by the power of God in the method(s) that Joseph Smith would understand. God is all-powerful in that regard. Let's focus on the Gospel and realize that the method that Joseph Smith translated the BOM has no bearing on our eternal salvation. Christ is our center, not Joseph Smith.

In the word of Jacob, adieu.

[stemelbow]

I am advocating a little humility when it comes to studying history. We don't need to attribute false motives to those who view it differently. 

We can accept new info and still keep in mind that others may be relying on different info.  True, some of their info may be outdated, but soon the info we have will be outdated.

I am pretty sure some of the history that I am now sure of will someday be considered unreliable, but that does not mean that I am trying to be deceitful right now.

That's good. But I don't think that works well when discussing the translation process. We have eye witness testimony now, just as we did, 30 years ago and 30 years before that. The problem, of course, is the eye witness testimony was left out when discussing the matter in church materials, fo rthe most part.

But other than that, you have a point.

[stemelbow]

You are so cute when you do this; it is standard procedure.  There is no disagreement between us; at least I haven't seen anything.  What I see are people wallowing in misery and wanting to whine about being in slop, but doing nothing to get out of the pigpen.  If you want to be happy, then be happy.  If you want to have faith then seek after being a person of faith.  If you don't then don't seek after it.  If you want to be a humanist, then go for it.  Whatever you choose, go your best, give it your all. 

 

Life is too precious to waste in whining about it.  Choose.

Odd that people who want to learn more about the Church's view of translation are said to be whining and not trying their best in life. The question is, if the Church tried to teach history and failed, then why? what happened?

[hoo rider]

I have to say that the response of many on this board is disappointing.  It reminds me of children fighting more than a dialogue of thinking adults.

 

At any rate, thought I would post one way the Church (as in approved by the 15) has taught the translation method.  From Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith:

 

 

 

 

“I was [told by Moroni] where were deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgment of the records of the ancient Prophets that had existed on this continent. … These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold; each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with engravings, in Egyptian characters, and bound together in a volume as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed. The characters on the unsealed part were small, and beautifully engraved. The whole book exhibited many marks of antiquity in its construction, and much skill in the art of engraving. With the records was found a curious instrument, which the ancients called ‘Urim and Thummim,’ which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breast plate. Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift and power of God.”⁴

“By the power of God I translated the Book of Mormon from hieroglyphics, the knowledge of which was lost to the world, in which wonderful event I stood alone, an unlearned youth, to combat the worldly wisdom and multiplied ignorance of eighteen centuries, with a new revelation.”⁵

 

 

 

Available at https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-4?lang=eng

 

A couple things I noticed:

• The plates are described in detail, leading one (at least me) to think that you are getting a detailed version of the translation
• The urim and thummim is described in lesser detail, but still described
• It quotes that through the urim and thummim (not a urim and thummim) the record was translated.  The use of the word the rather than a directly references the instrument that was just described.
• It says the BofM was translated from hieroglyphics.  This (at least to me) sounds like it was translated by Joseph looking directly at the writing on the plates, probably through the urim and thummim.

Despite spending a fair amount of words on the plates and their translation, the peep stone and hat were never mentioned.

 

I know books like this one helped me feel that I correctly understood how Joseph translated the BofM, even though I had never heard of a peep stone or hat being used.

 

[Danzo]

Right, because what we're talking about here is just some event that happened in the past.

 

Can you at least fathom why this new acknowledgement by the Church is problematic for many members?

 

One story has Joseph smith looking at two rocks in a bow attached to a breastplate.

 

The other story has Joseph smith looking at one rock in a hat.

 

Some stories combine the two.

 

I don't see how one story is any more ridiculous than the other one. 

 

The only other reason people seem to be upset is the sudden epiphany that the church is not completely accurate and correct in everything they teach.

 

The way I see it, this should only surprise people who have never read the D&C, Book of Mormon or new testament, and have never been in a ward council.

 

Each of these sources talks extensively on how the church is doing things wrong.

 

That the church should teach something wrong, find out it is wrong and the make corrections is something we should expect.  Maybe it doesn't happen as fast is you want it to.  There are many corrections that I think that should happen in the church (much more important than the number of rocks used to translate the Book of Mormon) that don't happen as fast as I would like them to.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

[hoo rider]

 

 

One story has Joseph smith looking at two rocks in a bow attached to a breastplate.

 

The other story has Joseph smith looking at one rock in a hat.

 

Some stories combine the two.

 

I don't see how one story is any more ridiculous than the other one. 

 

The only other reason people seem to be upset is the sudden epiphany that the church is not completely accurate and correct in everything they teach.

 

The way I see it, this should only surprise people who have never read the D&C, Book of Mormon or new testament, and have never been in a ward council.

 

Each of these sources talks extensively on how the church is doing things wrong.

 

That the church should teach something wrong, find out it is wrong and the make corrections is something we should expect.  Maybe it doesn't happen as fast is you want it to.  There are many corrections that I think that should happen in the church (much more important than the number of rocks used to translate the Book of Mormon) that don't happen as fast as I would like them to.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

 

 

Regarding your bolded statement above, this is the crux of the question.  Why did the official manuals of the church (e.g. the one I quoted above) heavily favor one version, often never mentioning the other one?

[Kenngo1969]

Get used to disappointment. ...

 

[Gray]

Isn't that sweet.  I am not happy to push anyone out the door, but if you are on the way out, don't let the door hit you on the way out.  However, what I am happy to do is draw a line for you.  Choose, don't whine, choose.  It is not hard, choose.  Quit whining, quit belly aching, choose.  I don't have the time nor the patience to read your incessant whining.  Choose and then be happy with your choice.  Move forward with confidence that you are doing what you want to do and others are doing the same thing.  

 

It is the whining that is so pitiful.  You can create all the stories you want as to why you choose, but just choose and be happy.  I hope you choose the right path, but it is no one else's choice but yours.  

 

Whining is not struggling; whining is what each of you are doing repeatedly, incessantly, and without any degree of reflection.  There is no searching for answers; in fact, you reject all answers.  You want it your way and because God has not given it to you your way you want to whine.  Stop whining about it and either follow God or not.  Do whatever makes you happy. 

 

This is not rocket science.  This is fundamental lessons on life.  

 

While I understand what you're getting at, this is probably counter productive in several ways, IMO