Evidence And The "worldview Backfire Effect"

[Stone holm]

Well the Catholic Bishop may have gotten the Church off the hot seat by closing down all the Catholic Scouting Units in his diocese. If the Church could for once walk softly for awhile we could let the ND Catholic Church get the full backfire effect for awhile.

[jkwilliams]

Those on the this board know that I am seldom or never sarcastic.  Just sincere.

 

But, in case you think this is also sarcasm, could you point out which part seems sarcastic?

 

Nothing in particular. It's just that people so seldom agree with me here, that I have to check and make sure they're not being sarcastic.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Not sure that there is a backfire effect where when evidence of something is given that people go the opposite way. In some cases, this might be true but I think in most cases this is not. I think most people will look at the evidence and make an opinion.

 

"Everyone has that one friend who will argue a fact to death, even if what they believe is wrong. A new study from the University of Iowa has found this friend will argue their point no matter what, even if you prove them wrong and even if it ends up costing them money."

http://www.medicaldaily.com/confirmation-bias-stock-market-traders-who-forecast-changes-market-wont-adjust-362044

[Thinking]

One thing that I have learned on this board is that all evidence points to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

 

I couldn't find the conversation so I will paraphrase.

 

Critic: This contradiction in the Book of Mormon proves that Joseph Smith made it up.

Apologist: Actually, that contradiction is evidence that he didn't make it up.

Critic: Huh?

Apologist: If Joseph Smith was making it up, he would have been careful about not including any contradictions. He translated the book as it was recorded on the plates, mistakes and all.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Apologist: If Joseph Smith was making it up, he would have been careful about not including any contradictions. He translated the book as it was recorded on the plates, mistakes and all.

 

What? Rick Dyer contradicted himself so many times, it doesn't mean he has a death Bigfoot. 

[Robert F. Smith]

One thing that I have learned on this board is that all evidence points to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

 

I couldn't find the conversation so I will paraphrase.

 

Critic: This contradiction in the Book of Mormon proves that Joseph Smith made it up.

Apologist: Actually, that contradiction is evidence that he didn't make it up.

Critic: Huh?

Apologist: If Joseph Smith was making it up, he would have been careful about not including any contradictions. He translated the book as it was recorded on the plates, mistakes and all.

Not sure I get it.  Perhaps you could give a couple of examples of contradictions which are simultaneously (1) evidence that Joseph didn't make it up, and (2) are mistakes in the text which Joseph faithfully transmitted in his translation.

 

That might indicate what you are really trying to say here.  If not, and you are merely being sarcastic, I might be able to provide some examples.

[Thinking]

Not sure I get it.  Perhaps you could give a couple of examples of contradictions which are simultaneously (1) evidence that Joseph didn't make it up, and (2) are mistakes in the text which Joseph faithfully transmitted in his translation.

 

That might indicate what you are really trying to say here.  If not, and you are merely being sarcastic, I might be able to provide some examples.

 

Ether 4:1

1830 Edition: "And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Benjamin keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people."

 

Current Edition: "And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people."

 

When the Nephites obtained the Jaredite records, Benjamin had already handed over the throne to his son Mosiah.

[JLHPROF]

One thing that I have learned on this board is that all evidence points to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

 

I couldn't find the conversation so I will paraphrase.

 

Critic: This contradiction in the Book of Mormon proves that Joseph Smith made it up.

Apologist: Actually, that contradiction is evidence that he didn't make it up.

Critic: Huh?

Apologist: If Joseph Smith was making it up, he would have been careful about not including any contradictions. He translated the book as it was recorded on the plates, mistakes and all.

 

So the argument is, because the Book of Mormon contains the occasional error of man (ones that would have been removed in editing in any fictional work), that provides additional credibility to its source?

 

Hey, worked for the Bible.

[MiserereNobis]

Yes, the Roman Catholic Holy Office (Inquisition) was finally shut down in about 1834.

 

Nah, we still have it.  We've just changed the name a couple of times.  Currently it is known as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF for short).

 

Personally, I like the original name better from 1542:  Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition.  Now that's a group you don't want to mess with!

[Kaleb Webb]

 

So the argument is, because the Book of Mormon contains the occasional error of man (ones that would have been removed in editing in any fictional work), that provides additional credibility to its source?

 

Hey, worked for the Bible.

How did it work for the Bible? What contradictions are there in the Bible that prove additional credibility?

[Stone holm]

I used to think evidence was of some importance, as I have grown older (not necessarily wiser) I am not sure that it really makes a lot of difference so long as you are not trying to force your standards or beliefs on somebody else. I would call it the "shrug effect" -- you like well that is interesting, but I'll stick with my beliefs as I think what I believe in would be really cool if it turns out to be reality, whereas I am not sure that these beliefs over here, even if true, would be all that cool if they turn out to be reality. So my belief is fairly harmless, since I draw the line at doing things that hurt other people for ideology sake. So my belief may well be wrong, the evidence may actually be strong to the effect that it is wrong, but hey I don't care -- so don't get your undies in a big twist trying to save myself from myself -- I will go on with my fantasy and as long as I don't try and impose it on the rest of the world, or use it to cause mischief -- then what right do you have to jump all over me.

[Robert F. Smith]

Ether 4:1

1830 Edition: "And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Benjamin keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people."

 

Current Edition: "And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people."

 

When the Nephites obtained the Jaredite records, Benjamin had already handed over the throne to his son Mosiah.

Excellent example.

 

FairMormon deals with this question rather well at  http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Textual_changes/%22Benjamin%22_changed_to_%22Mosiah%22 .  Since the contents of the book of Mosiah are not strictly chronological, we don't know whether Ammon merely assumed that Benjamin was still alive (following the coregency ritual with his son, Mosiah II), or whether Moroni was merely following his father's same usage at Mosiah 21:28.  The only first-person account of that which we have is at Mosiah 8:13-14, which does not list a specific name, and later editors could have bollixed that by trying to put in a specific name.  We just don't know.

 

Another example, in which the original editors clearly got it wrong, and then inserted a correction (no erasures when you are engraving metal plates), is at Alma 13:12-16,

 

12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

16 Now these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord.

--------------------------- 

13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

14 Yea, humble yourselves even as the people in the days of Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken, who also took upon him the high priesthood forever.

15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.

 

Joseph and Oliver could not have made this error, and were clearly unaware of it.  It was only discovered recently, and appears to have been caused when editor Mormon mistakenly picked up the same final lines in verses 12 and 16 (by homoeoteleuton) and thus skipped several verses before seeing his mistake.