Evidence And The "worldview Backfire Effect"

[Robert F. Smith]

TheSkepticChristian has asked me to start a topic on the relevance of evidence, and to show this video on the “Worldview Backfire Effect”:

 

https://youtu.be/CtSk03efSqQ 

 

TheSkepticChristian feels that this is “proof that evidence doesn’t matter,” for example, that it doesn’t matter to young-Earth creationists, to online critics, nor to supporters of the heartland theory of Book of Mormon geography.

 

Of course, evidence pro or con seldom matters to dogmatic and narrow-minded people, but TheSkepticChristian appears to be saying that it doesn’t even matter to the well-intentioned hoi-polloi.  After all, a typical jury will easily acquit someone who looks nice and seems innocent, regardless of evidence.  Indeed, the stronger the evidence against him, the more strongly people will believe him to be innocent.  This is the “backfire effect” described in the video.

 

So, does evidence matter?

[Gray]

Evidence is probably less convincing to someone with strong personal views on any particular subject, but that does not mean that human beings are incapable of overcoming cognitive bias and being convinced by evidence. It takes some discipline and conscious effort to do so, of course. We are not naturally rational creatures. Reason is learned, not intuited. 

 

ETA: And furthermore, nothing anyone can say will change my mind on that.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Gray

[ERayR]

TheSkepticChristian has asked me to start a topic on the relevance of evidence, and to show this video on the “Worldview Backfire Effect”:

 

https://youtu.be/CtSk03efSqQ 

 

TheSkepticChristian feels that this is “proof that evidence doesn’t matter,” for example, that it doesn’t matter to young-Earth creationists, to online critics, nor to supporters of the heartland theory of Book of Mormon geography.

 

Of course, evidence pro or con seldom matters to dogmatic and narrow-minded people, but TheSkepticChristian appears to be saying that it doesn’t even matter to the well-intentioned hoi-polloi.  After all, a typical jury will easily acquit someone who looks nice and seems innocent, regardless of evidence.  Indeed, the stronger the evidence against him, the more strongly people will believe him to be innocent.  This is the “backfire effect” described in the video.

 

So, does evidence matter?

 

TheSkepticChristian's mistake is he thinks everybody sees and interprets the evidence the same way he sees it.  In his paradigm if you don't agree with him you are less than intelligent.

[TheSkepticChristian]

TheSkepticChristian's mistake is he thinks everybody sees and interprets the evidence the same way he sees it.  In his paradigm if you don't agree with him you are less than intelligent.

 

I don't have a problem with many interpretations of the evidence, the real problem is making interpretations that ignores some evidence.  

 

It is easy to interpret many stuff, but the goal is to find the best explanation that explains all the data, not just some of it. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

So, does evidence matter?

 

Not to many, that is why the number of Meldrum supporters is growing. 

The human mind is very good to look for "explanations" and patterns that are not real. 

[ERayR]

I don't have a problem with many interpretations of the evidence, the real problem is making interpretations that ignore some variables. 

 

It is easy to interpret many stuff, but the goal is to find the best explanation that explains all the data, not just some of it. 

 

Some paradigms  may not consider those variables as important as you consider them to be.

 

Again they may have data that they feel supersedes the variables you find important.  You seem to run on the assumption that you have all the data or that what you do not have is irrelevant.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

TheSkepticChristian has asked me to start a topic on the relevance of evidence, and to show this video on the “Worldview Backfire Effect”:

 

https://youtu.be/CtSk03efSqQ 

 

TheSkepticChristian feels that this is “proof that evidence doesn’t matter,” for example, that it doesn’t matter to young-Earth creationists, to online critics, nor to supporters of the heartland theory of Book of Mormon geography.

 

Of course, evidence pro or con seldom matters to dogmatic and narrow-minded people, but TheSkepticChristian appears to be saying that it doesn’t even matter to the well-intentioned hoi-polloi.  After all, a typical jury will easily acquit someone who looks nice and seems innocent, regardless of evidence.  Indeed, the stronger the evidence against him, the more strongly people will believe him to be innocent.  This is the “backfire effect” described in the video.

 

So, does evidence matter?

Not sure that there is a backfire effect where when evidence of something is given that people go the opposite way. In some cases, this might be true but I think in most cases this is not. I think most people will look at the evidence and make an opinion. Once that opinion is formed that is when it is really hard to change that opinion. And every one does get sort of an opinion bias on certain subjects.

 

I think it the real issues are how you (In a general but individual sense) weigh each piece of evidence in conjunction with what you already know or believe. Some people will put a lot of weight in to evidence X while some one else will completely shrug it off as irrelevant and they might even have a very good reason for doing so.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Some paradigms  may not consider those variables as important as you consider them to be.

 

Again they may have data that they feel supersedes the variables you find important.  You seem to run on the assumption that you have all the data or that what you do not have is irrelevant.

Exactly.

[ERayR]

Not to many, that is why the number of Meldrum supporters is growing. 

The human mind is very good to look for "explanations" and patterns that are not real. 

 

Disclaimer:  I do not support Meldrums views.

 

Evidence does matter it is just that some consider different evidence as more important than what you see as important.

[TheSkepticChristian]

 they may have data that they feel supersedes the variables you find important

 

We need to be objective, I don't find a set of data important for no reason or for a personal feeling. Meldrum supporters interpret the evidence differently, but they ignore some stuff, do you agree?

 

Young Earth creationists interpret the evidence differently, but they ignore some variables. 

 

Flat Earth theorists interpret the world differently, but it doesn't mean they have good explanations. 

 

Please see 

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

why are you talking to yourself? 

Edited July 29, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We need to be objective, I don't find a set of data important for no reason or for a personal feeling. Meldrum supporters interpret the evidence differently, but they ignore some stuff, do you agree?

 

Young Earth creationists interpret the evidence differently, but they ignore some variables. 

 

Flat Earth theorists interpret the world differently, but it doesn't mean they have good explanations. 

 

Please see 

 

 

 

 

why are you talking to yourself? 

second off, I am not. I agree with Erayer.

 

1st, you are missing the point. You cannot be "objectionable". Have you not read a single thing that MFB has posted? All we have is interpretations of evidence. I guess this sorta might go to the OP and what Robert was talking about.

[ERayR]

We need to be objective, I don't find a set of data important for no reason or for a personal feeling. Meldrum supporters interpret the evidence differently, but they ignore some stuff, do you agree?

 

Young Earth creationists interpret the evidence differently, but they ignore some variables. 

 

Flat Earth theorists interpret the world differently, but it doesn't mean they have good explanations. 

 

Please see 

 

 

 

 

why are you talking to yourself? 

 

Again your objectivity is based on your experiences and interpretation.  Others have different experiences thus different interpretation.  That does not mean you are right and they are wrong.  You have no license to impose your paradigm on them.

[thesometimesaint]

TheSkepticChristian has asked me to start a topic on the relevance of evidence, and to show this video on the “Worldview Backfire Effect”:

 

https://youtu.be/CtSk03efSqQ 

 

TheSkepticChristian feels that this is “proof that evidence doesn’t matter,” for example, that it doesn’t matter to young-Earth creationists, to online critics, nor to supporters of the heartland theory of Book of Mormon geography.

 

Of course, evidence pro or con seldom matters to dogmatic and narrow-minded people, but TheSkepticChristian appears to be saying that it doesn’t even matter to the well-intentioned hoi-polloi.  After all, a typical jury will easily acquit someone who looks nice and seems innocent, regardless of evidence.  Indeed, the stronger the evidence against him, the more strongly people will believe him to be innocent.  This is the “backfire effect” described in the video.

 

So, does evidence matter?

 

We still have 1/4 of adult Americans that believe the sun revolves around the earth. So there will always be those that proof that evidence doesn’t matter

 

The conviction rate by juries is far higher than by judges. OJ Simpson not withstanding. It's unfortunately a balancing game for the prosecutor they want enough evidence to convict, but not so much it comes across as "Dog Piling" on the accused.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Again your objectivity is based on your experiences and interpretation.  Others have different experiences thus different interpretation.  That does not mean you are right and they are wrong. 

 

Imagine if Medical doctors tell their patients "it is just an interpretation, and my peers disagree with me" 

 

Many interpretations is not good during medical surgery. 

 

It is easy to find many interpretations, but there is a best known explanation that explains all the data. 

 

Do you think the Flat Earth theory is plausible? You think the Flat Earth theory could be right? 

 

Edited July 29, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[ERayR]

We still have 1/4 of adult Americans that believe the sun revolves around the earth. So there will always be those that proof that evidence doesn’t matter

 

The conviction rate by juries is far higher than by judges. OJ Simpson not withstanding. It's unfortunately a balancing game for the prosecutor they want enough evidence to convict, but not so much it comes across as "Dog Piling" on the accused.

 

I question your statistics.  Please humor me and post the source.

[thesometimesaint]

I question your statistics.  Please humor me and post the source.

 

I am happy to.

SEE http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/14/277058739/1-in-4-americans-think-the-sun-goes-around-the-earth-survey-says

 

And

 

SEE http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/judge_v_judge/

Edited July 29, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[ERayR]

Imagine if Medical doctors tell their patients "it is just an interpretation, and my peers disagree with me" 

 

Many interpretations are not a good thing during medical surgery. 

 

It is easy to find many interpretations, but there is a best known explanation that explains all the data. 

 

Do you think the Flat Earth theory is plausible? You think the Flat Earth theory could be right? 

 

 

You obviously do not know much about the medical field.  Have you never heard of the concept of getting a second opinion for serious medical problems?

 

What do you not understand about the best available explanation is dependent on personal experience and interpretation.

 

My experiences and best available information indicates some serious problems with the Flat Earth theory.

[TheSkepticChristian]

You obviously do not know much about the medical field.  Have you never heard of the concept of getting a second opinion for serious medical problems?

 

and you do not understand my point, that is not what I am saying.

What would happen if all medical doctors disagree with each other about the basics? 

 

 

  Have you never heard of the concept of getting a second opinion for serious medical problems?

 

and that is a good thing, especially if it agrees with the first opinion. 

 

 

My experiences and best available information indicates some serious problems with the Flat Earth theory.

 

but Flat Earth Theorists disagree and have their own interpretation, you don't think there is a best explanation? 

 

Edited July 29, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[thesometimesaint]

You obviously do not know much about the medical field.  Have you never heard of the concept of getting a second opinion for serious medical problems?

 

What do you not understand about the best available explanation is dependent on personal experience and interpretation.

 

My experiences and best available information indicates some serious problems with the Flat Earth theory.

 

It's  more like going to 100 doctors for an illness and 98 of them doing all types of tests telling you that you have "X" and 2 doing no tests saying you don't have "X" but you have "Y". Whose recommendation are you going to follow?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It's  more like going to 100 doctors for an illness and 98 of them doing all types of tests telling you that you have "X" and 2 doing no tests saying you don't have "X" but you have "Y". Whose recommendation are you going to follow?

Saint, you should never appeal to the populace. That is never a good argument. That because any % of X believe Y you should believe it too. Let the evidence be presented.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Saint, you should never appeal to the populace. That is never a good argument. That because any % of X believe Y you should believe it too. Let the evidence be presented.

 

Will you understand all the complex medical data? Please translate this to English 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24480332

 

Edited July 29, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[ERayR]

I am happy to.

SEE http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/14/277058739/1-in-4-americans-think-the-sun-goes-around-the-earth-survey-says

 

And

 

SEE http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/judge_v_judge/

 

I am surprised but given the man in the street interviwes I have seen I probably shouldn't be.

[ERayR]

and you do not understand my point, that is not what I am saying.

What would happen if all medical doctors disagree with each other about the basics? 

 

 

 

and that is a good thing, especially if it agrees with the first opinion. 

 

 

 

but Flat Earth Theorists disagree and have their own interpretation, you don't think there is a best explanation? 

 

 

See post # 20.

[ERayR]

Will you understand all the complex medical data? Please translate this to English 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24480332

 

 

And what would that prove?

[TheSkepticChristian]

And what would that prove?

 

I agree there are no absolute proofs, but there are best known explanations that many amateurs don't understand. 

 

PS You are a great example for the worldview Backfire Effect

 

No personal shots please. -mods

Edited July 30, 2015 by Ares