Proof That God Exists? Maybe You'Re Asking The Wrong Person.

[HairBear]

The atheist argument seems to boil down to “show me proof that God exists”, because whether God exists isn’t really within anyone’s power to prove. I'm not God so how can I prove that God exists?

In Malachi 3:10, the Lord says, in regards to tithing, “prove me now” that He will open the windows of heaven, and pour out a blessing upon us. Shouldn’t this also be the way that God “proves” to us He exists.

Is it really mine or anyone else’s responsibility to prove to another person that God exists, or is it our own responsibility to turn to God and ask Him to prove His existence to us individually?

Hair Bear

[The Grimace]

While proofs of God exist, such as Anselm's and various other ontological proofs, these are no more than linguistic and logical turns; they rely on thought experiments to show how it's possible a God could exist.

Ultimately, belief in God is founded on a choice to acknowledge the existence of God without any incontrovertible evidence.

[blueadept]

Is it really mine or anyone else’s responsibility to prove to another person that God exists, or is it our own responsibility to turn to God and ask Him to prove His existence to us individually?

There are a few miracles that scientists cannot explain but not everyone accepts; therefore, it's the individual's responsibility to believe that God exists. In reality, that only occurs with the assistance of the Holy Ghost.

[Damien the Leper]

The atheist argument seems to boil down to “show me proof that God exists”, because whether God exists isn’t really within anyone’s power to prove. I'm not God so how can I prove that God exists?

In Malachi 3:10, the Lord says, in regards to tithing, “prove me now” that He will open the windows of heaven, and pour out a blessing upon us. Shouldn’t this also be the way that God “proves” to us He exists.

Is it really mine or anyone else’s responsibility to prove to another person that God exists, or is it our own responsibility to turn to God and ask Him to prove His existence to us individually?

Hair Bear

In the book "An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism", the claim is made that an atheist cannot say God does not exist because the burden of proof would have to reside with them.

Likewise, it could be illogical for a believer to say that they KNOW God exists because the burden of proof would reside with them. This is where certainty becomes the enemy of faith and faith becomes arrogant. Don't doubt for a minute that when the word 'KNOW' is used that the individual who used it is now responsible for demonstrating HOW they KNOW through reasonable, logical and (possibly) empirical evidences. This is exactly why Testimony Meeting drives me up the wall.

But in the defense of those who choose to believe in such a way...they have every right to do so. I would remind them of that and then refer them to my sig line in blue.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Valentinus

[blueadept]

But in the defense of those who choose to believe in such a way...they have every right to do so. I would remind them of that and then refer them to my sig line in blue.

"...for any mystery can be solved through the application of knowledge and unrelenting effort."

Overall, I would disagree with this part of your quote since scientists cannot prove everything beyond the shadow of doubt. There's some leap of faith involved. One simply hopes that the leap of faith is relatively small and it's not the size of the Grand Canyon.

[Damien the Leper]

"...for any mystery can be solved through the application of knowledge and unrelenting effort."

Overall, I would disagree with this part of your quote since scientists cannot prove everything beyond the shadow of doubt. There's some leap of faith involved. One simply hopes that the leap of faith is relatively small and it's not the size of the Grand Canyon.

You are reading the sig line too literally.

[Garden Girl]

Likewise, it could be illogical for a believer to say that they KNOW God exists because the burden of proof would reside with them. This is where certainty becomes the enemy of faith and faith becomes arrogant. Don't doubt for a minute that when the word 'KNOW' is used that the individual who used it is now responsible for demonstrating HOW they KNOW through reasonable, logical and (possibly) empirical evidences. This is exactly why Testimony Meeting drives me up the wall.

Good morning Valentinus... hope all is well with you and yours...

This is really interesting to ponder... why? because I'm a believer, and I KNOW... yes, KNOW... God exists. So now, according to you, I must present how I know by using reasonable, logical, even empirical evidences. Well, dear brother... I can't really offer anything more than my own testimony through faith (which of course drives you up the wall).

Space here will not allow me to relate the several times I've heard the "still small voice." BTW, it is a male voice, not my own, and as clear as if someone were standing next to me... and those here who have heard it for themselves understand when I say it is quiet yet fills me with an incredible peace, then sometimes a joy that has started at my navel and radiated upward until my heart beats faster and tears come to my eyes... how does one reasonably and logically explain THAT? How does one reasonably and logically explain an answer to prayer that defies "coincidence?" These are part of my faith and there is no way to satisfy someone like you.

My faith has been strengthened by viewing my physical world as I kneel in the rich earth, doing the work of my garden... seeing the interconnectiveness of the plants and creatures... such order and purpose... seeing the spring bulbs come forth each year just at the right time, particularly the tiny crocus bulbs... each year in early spring I become aware of little green shoots protruding up from the earth, and quickly within days the most beautiful blooms in bright yellow and rich purple. I sigh and my heart rejoices... Spring!...the winter is over... the crocus have bloomed... Is this reasonable or logical? Not to you... but to me it speaks volumes of a master hand that created a beautiful world for his children to inhabit... created within the natural laws; laws that through the centuries He has inspired His children to discover and unlock... the glory of God is intelligence...

Well, none of that which I have just said will be viewed as reasonable or logical proof of the existence of God... not to you at least or others holding similar views...

But for me, the spiritual witnesses and experiences... the viewing of my physical world... my FAITH and TESTIMONY are such that I know who I am... WHO I am... and how I fit within this vast beautiful world that fills me with wonder every time I walk along the shore... Reasonable? Logical? I guess that depends....

Have a good day...

from the beach... GG

edit to add: I disagree with your blue signature line...

Edited July 18, 2012 by Garden Girl

[Damien the Leper]

Good morning Valentinus... hope all is well with you and yours...

This is really interesting to ponder... why? because I'm a believer, and I KNOW... yes, KNOW... God exists. So now, according to you, I must present how I know by using reasonable, logical, even empirical evidences. Well, dear brother... I can't really offer anything more than my own testimony through faith (which of course drives you up the wall).

Space here will not allow me to relate the several times I've heard the "still small voice." BTW, it is a male voice, not my own, and as clear as if someone were standing next to me... and those here who have heard it for themselves understand when I say it is quiet yet fills me with an incredible peace, then sometimes a joy that has started at my navel and radiated upward until my heart beats faster and tears come to my eyes... how does one reasonably and logically explain THAT? How does one reasonably and logically explain an answer to prayer that defies "coincidence?" These are part of my faith and there is no way to satisfy someone like you.

My faith has been strengthened by viewing my physical world as I kneel in the rich earth, doing the work of my garden... seeing the interconnectiveness of the plants and creatures... such order and purpose... seeing the spring bulbs come forth each year just at the right time, particularly the tiny crocus bulbs... each year in early spring I become aware of little green shoots protruding up from the earth, and quickly within days the most beautiful blooms in bright yellow and rich purple. I sigh and my heart rejoices... Spring!...the winter is over... the crocus have bloomed... Is this reasonable or logical? Not to you... but to me it speaks volumes of a master hand that created a beautiful world for his children to inhabit... created within the natural laws; laws that through the centuries He has inspired His children to discover and unlock... the glory of God is intelligence...

Well, none of that which I have just said will be viewed as reasonable or logical proof of the existence of God... not to you at least or others holding similar views...

But for me, the spiritual witnesses and experiences... the viewing of my physical world... my FAITH and TESTIMONY are such that I know who I am... WHO I am... and how I fit within this vast beautiful world that fills me with wonder every time I walk along the shore... Reasonable? Logical? I guess that depends....

Have a good day...

from the beach... GG

edit to add: I disagree with your blue signature line...

Thank you for your response.

I have disagreed with religious practitioners in the past that the burden of proof solely resides with those who claim that God does not exist. It is hypocritical.

It is my belief that faith is practical, reasonable and logical. Hence one of the purpose of apologetics. It is to show that we are not disillusioned by the Great Unseen Master developed through psychosis or other psychological terms.

Do I believe that God speaks to us? Yes. But that does not make anything CERTAIN. I rather like the Geometry Philosophy: NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING.

Whether you agree with my sig line or not is of little relevance. I proposed it to make a point. That point being that not all things to be learned of the Lord, as you well know, are confined to this existence. Therefore, it is not a mystery. We have the eternities to learn through the "application of knowledge and unrelented effort" and deny the ignorance found in the phrase that the Lord "works in mysterious ways".

Perhaps I'm being a little to Gnostic...

[Damien the Leper]

Faith and testimony only serve to show that we each individually experience God but does little to nothing to prove His existence beyond those isolated experiences.

For example, my mother had pre-eclampsia while pregnant and giving birth to me. We were both expected to die during labor. What is faith inspiring is that while some missionaries at the time, who were simply doing hospital visits, happened upon us and gave my mother a blessing. My mother claims that without a doubt that she felt multiple hands resting on her shoulders as the missionaries performed the blessing. I do NOT doubt the intensely spiritual experience of my mother. I hold it as sacred to her own faith because it was peace and comfort that soothed her.

Mutually, I attribute our survival to that blessing. I have no other explanation. Does it prove God exists? No. Does it give me hope that He does? Absolutely!

This is why I choose to express my testimony by stating "I have a good idea" (passive...I know) rather than "I know".

It is poorly deduced that doubt and distrust, when concerning faith, go hand in hand. To this notion I simply smile and scoff and conclude that it is impractical.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Valentinus

[Garden Girl]

Faith and testimony only serve to show that we each individually experience God but does little to nothing to prove His existence beyond those isolated experiences.

**I agree V, and understand your point...

For example, my mother had pre-eclampsia while pregnant and giving birth to me. We were both expected to die during labor. What is faith inspiring is that while some missionaries at the time, who were simply doing hospital visits, happened upon us and gave my mother a blessing. My mother claims that without a doubt that she felt multiple hands resting on her shoulders as the missionaries performed the blessing. I do NOT doubt the intensely spiritual experience of my mother. I hold it as sacred to her own faith because it was peace and comfort that soothed her.

Mutually, I attribute our survival to that blessing. I have no other explanation. Does it prove God exists? No. Does it give me hope that He does? Absolutely!

** I love this... thank you for sharing... I too have had such a remarkable experience albeit differerent in that it was the night my mother died.

This is why I choose to express my testimony by stating "I have a good idea" (passive...I know) rather than "I know".

** I understand... I just go a step further and feel comfortable doing so...

It is poorly deduced that doubt and distrust, when concerning faith, go hand in hand. To this notion I simply smile and scoff and conclude that it is impractical.

** Me too...

And by the way, I don't think that just because I am a believer that the burden of proof falls on the non-believer... any more than it falls on me... as you have well pointed out, there is no certain way to prove the existence of God...

GG

[KevinG]

I asked and God answered. Personally enough proof for me.

Its not my business to try to prove God exists to someone else- they need to do their own searching.

[mfbukowski]

The atheist argument seems to boil down to “show me proof that God exists”, because whether God exists isn’t really within anyone’s power to prove. I'm not God so how can I prove that God exists?

In Malachi 3:10, the Lord says, in regards to tithing, “prove me now” that He will open the windows of heaven, and pour out a blessing upon us. Shouldn’t this also be the way that God “proves” to us He exists.

Is it really mine or anyone else’s responsibility to prove to another person that God exists, or is it our own responsibility to turn to God and ask Him to prove His existence to us individually?

Hair Bear

You are right on the money and don't let anyone tell you you are not.

[mfbukowski]

In the book "An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism", the claim is made that an atheist cannot say God does not exist because the burden of proof would have to reside with them.

Likewise, it could be illogical for a believer to say that they KNOW God exists because the burden of proof would reside with them. This is where certainty becomes the enemy of faith and faith becomes arrogant. Don't doubt for a minute that when the word 'KNOW' is used that the individual who used it is now responsible for demonstrating HOW they KNOW through reasonable, logical and (possibly) empirical evidences. This is exactly why Testimony Meeting drives me up the wall.

But in the defense of those who choose to believe in such a way...they have every right to do so. I would remind them of that and then refer them to my sig line in blue.

The word "know" is a declaration of certainty and does not require that the speaker prove HOW he knows, or to prove that he does.

http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/us/dewey.htm

[mfbukowski]

I asked and God answered. Personally enough proof for me.

Its not my business to try to prove God exists to someone else- they need to do their own searching.

[Damien the Leper]

The word "know" is a declaration of certainty and does not require that the speaker prove HOW he knows, or to prove that he does.

http://www.marxists....ks/us/dewey.htm

I'm good with this. So when someone says they 'know' then it is equally dismissable and of little to no relevance.

Faithful LDS Person 1: "I know God exists."

Faithful LDS Person 2: "If you say so then good for you!"

[Calm]

I'm good with this. So when someone says they 'know' then it is equally dismissable and of little to no relevance.

Faithful LDS Person 1: "I know God exists."

Faithful LDS Person 2: "If you say so then good for you!"

I think you could conclude that you can dismiss someone else's personal experience and knowledge as irrelevant to you unless you are interested in that person as another human being which you want to share your life with in some way, even if only for a few moments in passing. Edited July 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[Damien the Leper]

I think you could conclude that you can dismiss someone else's personal experience and knowledge as irrelevant to you unless you are interested in that person as another human being which you want to share your life with in some way, even if only for a few moments in passing.

Whoa! No disrespect but that is a seriously loaded long running sentence. I don't know where to start to make the sentence make sense to myself. My flaws...not yours.

[Calm]

Whoa! No disrespect but that is a seriously loaded long running sentence. I don't know where to start to make the sentence make sense to myself. My flaws...not yours.

Actually runon sentences are a flaw of mine. My mind gets going and doesn't want to stop while wandering off in a lot of different directions plus I get hyperconconcerned with saying things precisely and/or in context so I start throwing in clauses, etc.

Okay, how to say it better.....I think in an abstract way we can conclude that if someone says "I know....." we can dismiss it as irrelevant to our own personal experience. We have a choice of ignoring it or just not placing any value on it. However, in the case where we want to share our lives with others, even in very limited ways, to do so requires in my opinion at least an interest in what they value, in what they express as their knowledge and perhaps if they become important to us, their personal knowledge because of great importance and relevance to us.

Does that make better sense as three sentences rather than one?

I know (there is that word again, lol) how people feel, how I feel, when my values, my experience, my knowledge is dismissed by those I believe to care for me and it can be extremely painful and lonely. While it is one thing to discuss something in the abstract philosophically we need to remember that when it comes to personal interactions, the perceptions may be somewhat differently applied....unless of course one is a pragmatic and then it is what actually works in our lives that matters, not the abstract.....sorry is this got too run-on as well, I just had to throw in that last bit for mfb.

Edited July 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[Damien the Leper]

Actually runon sentences are a flaw of mine. My mind gets going and doesn't want to stop while wandering off in a lot of different directions plus I get hyperconconcerned with saying things precisely and/or in context so I start throwing in clauses, etc.

Okay, how to say it better.....I think in an abstract way we can conclude that if someone says "I know....." we can dismiss it as irrelevant to our own personal experience. We have a choice of ignoring it or just not placing any value on it. However, in the case where we want to share our lives with others, even in very limited ways, to do so requires in my opinion at least an interest in what they value, in what they express as their knowledge and perhaps if they become important to us, their personal knowledge because of great importance and relevance to us.

Does that make better sense as three sentences rather than one?

I know (there is that word again, lol) how people feel, how I feel, when my values, my experience, my knowledge is dismissed by those I believe to care for me and it can be extremely painful and lonely. While it is one thing to discuss something in the abstract philosophically we need to remember that when it comes to personal interactions, the perceptions may be somewhat differently applied....unless of course one is a pragmatic and then it is what actually works in our lives that matters, not the abstract.....sorry is this got too run-on as well, I just had to throw in that last bit for mfb.

Much better and I agree with you.

[mfbukowski]

I know (there is that word again, lol) how people feel, how I feel, when my values, my experience, my knowledge is dismissed by those I believe to care for me and it can be extremely painful and lonely. While it is one thing to discuss something in the abstract philosophically we need to remember that when it comes to personal interactions, the perceptions may be somewhat differently applied....unless of course one is a pragmatic and then it is what actually works in our lives that matters, not the abstract.....sorry is this got too run-on as well, I just had to throw in that last bit for mfb.

I see it like a child finding the person they want to marry and saying "Oh dad! I KNOW he is the right one for me, I can't wait to get married!"

Of course I would rejoice with her! I am definitely not about to ask for scientifically verifiable evidence that he is indeed A- the right one and B - that she knows he is the right one. How absurd would that be?

And incidentally I had no problems whatsoever with that alleged "run-on" sentence. Probably because that is the way I speak also!

[Avatar4321]

Of course it's the individuals responsibility to turn to God and find out from Him for themselves. Yet so many people dont do that for whatever reason.

[salvar774]

In the book "An Anthology of Atheism and Rationalism", the claim is made that an atheist cannot say God does not exist because the burden of proof would have to reside with them.

Likewise, it could be illogical for a believer to say that they KNOW God exists because the burden of proof would reside with them. This is where certainty becomes the enemy of faith and faith becomes arrogant. Don't doubt for a minute that when the word 'KNOW' is used that the individual who used it is now responsible for demonstrating HOW they KNOW through reasonable, logical and (possibly) empirical evidences. This is exactly why Testimony Meeting drives me up the wall.

But in the defense of those who choose to believe in such a way...they have every right to do so. I would remind them of that and then refer them to my sig line in blue.

God has been very generous all my life in providing evidence in the way of miracles .There can be no other explanation So I know with out a doubt that God lives and loves us . I am not any one special or righteous . I am very far from perfect . I can find no reason for the generosity . I post this because I am one of those you metioned that say "I know God lives" in sacrament .I say it with sincere honesty.

Some times people sounds automatic like if people, and I'm sure me too , are just repeating words . I do not know how I could say other wise .

I would not mention the actual miracles in sacrament I do not want to seem boastful. I can already see the eyes rolling .

[bu11fr0g]

People have vastly different ways of determining truth. A person who looks on the Bible as the Ultimate source of Truth will never agree with the person who views the conclusions of the majority of present day university-based scientists nor the person who relies on personal spiritual manifestations & intuition.

[kenporay]

To me "proof" only exists in mathematics and all else is evidence. An overwhelming amout of evidence does not always convict (ref OJ Simpson).

I'm known as rational and pragmatic. Some spirituals experiences I've had cause me to ask my self if I am a butterfly who dreamed he was a man, or a man who dreamt he was a butterfly.

Most of the people I've encountered have no problem accepting a textbook as true, without actually researching, experimenting or reading the published papers. As long as we can unthinkingly regurgitate the answers then we pass the class.

Those same people are as easily inclined to dismiss religon as easily as they accept textbooks.

I feel no compulsion to "prove."