stemelbow Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2015/07/can-you-spare-a-few-dollars-it-neednt-be-much-if-enough-people-kick-in.html So what happens if say, Joseph didn't father Josephine Lyon? Or what happens if she did? Does it make any difference to anyone?
jkwilliams Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 I suppose it depends on whether people can handle a prophet fathering a child with a married woman. Some people can handle a flawed prophet, and some can't.
stemelbow Posted July 29, 2015 Author Posted July 29, 2015 I suppose it depends on whether people can handle a prophet fathering a child with a married woman. Some people can handle a flawed prophet, and some can't. Sure. I think the possibility that he fathered her is enough for many to say the flaws are too much. I guess confirming it might see more people leave the Church. but if it comes back as inconclusive or even no, I don't see any interesting result from this.
KevinG Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 If Joseph is proven to have fathered a child by a woman other than Emma I think it would vindicate Brigham's Utah marriage policies. If someone bases their testimony on the History of Joseph Smith they are on less stable ground than basing it on the reality of a living Jesus Christ. Why the fascination with who will or will not endure as a Latter-day Saint, and what is likely to push some out of the church? 3
ERayR Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 It depends on wheter one has received confirmation of whether the Restored Gospel is true or not. 2
The Nehor Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Well, I have been looking to start sinning and this is as good an excuse as any. 2
HappyJackWagon Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 If Joseph is proven to have fathered a child by a woman other than Emma I think it would vindicate Brigham's Utah marriage policies. If someone bases their testimony on the History of Joseph Smith they are on less stable ground than basing it on the reality of a living Jesus Christ. Why the fascination with who will or will not endure as a Latter-day Saint, and what is likely to push some out of the church?Right. Place faith in Christ, not in the arm of the flesh ( Joseph or the church) 1
Ahab Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2015/07/can-you-spare-a-few-dollars-it-neednt-be-much-if-enough-people-kick-in.htmlSo what happens if say, Joseph didn't father Josephine Lyon?Or what happens if she did?Does it make any difference to anyone?Darn it! I didn't even know to ask about that when God told me that Joseph was one of his prophets. Oh well. 3
KevinG Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Well, I have been looking to start sinning and this is as good an excuse as any. Gluttony is the most socially acceptable these days. Or at least you can get away with it more easily. I know. I've tried.
The Nehor Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Gluttony is the most socially acceptable these days. Or at least you can get away with it more easily. I know. I've tried.Sounds kind of boring compared to an orgy.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 I suppose it depends on whether people can handle a prophet fathering a child with a married woman. Some people can handle a flawed prophet, and some can't. There are a couple of aspects to this problem: (1) This is purely hypothetical. Of the dozens of wives of Joseph, all named by Fawn Brodie, with photos of possible descendants, not one has ever been found to have descended from Joseph, and Dr. Perego has genetically tested many of them.already with negative results. Since Joseph was fathering children by Emma at that time, it is not a question of fertility on his part, and raises real questions about whether any of the plural marriages were ever even consummated. (2) In ancient Israel, prophets did odd and horrific things which never raised any eyebrows among the people, since they understood that a prophet must obey God: So both Isaiah and Micah walked around naked and barefoot for years on orders from God. Moses executed the Midianite women (even though he was married to one), Samuel executed Agag, Elisha had bears kill children, and Nephi executed Laban. 1
KevinG Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Sounds kind of boring compared to an orgy. You have obviously never eaten one of my caramel covered death by chocolate brownies.
jkwilliams Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 There are a couple of aspects to this problem: (1) This is purely hypothetical. Of the dozens of wives of Joseph, all named by Fawn Brodie, with photos of possible descendants, not one has ever been found to have descended from Joseph, and Dr. Perego has genetically tested many of them.already with negative results. Since Joseph was fathering children by Emma at that time, it is not a question of fertility on his part, and raises real questions about whether any of the plural marriages were ever even consummated. (2) In ancient Israel, prophets did odd and horrific things which never raised any eyebrows among the people, since they understood that a prophet must obey God: So both Isaiah and Micah walked around naked and barefoot for years on orders from God. Moses executed the Midianite women (even though he was married to one), Samuel executed Agag, Elisha had bears kill children, and Nephi executed Laban. Given the firsthand testimony of several wives, I'd say it's a fairly safe bet that at least some of the marriages were consummated. If Josephine Lyon is shown not to be his biological child, it doesn't raise any real questions, at least not to me. Again, you probably disagree. As to your second point, yes, scripture is full of some pretty grim stuff. As I said, if one believes that a prophet is doing God's will, one is likely to accept that prophets sometimes do some pretty grim stuff. For someone who doesn't believe they were prophets, it's just grim stuff and need not be accepted. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Given the firsthand testimony of several wives, I'd say it's a fairly safe bet that at least some of the marriages were consummated. If Josephine Lyon is shown not to be his biological child, it doesn't raise any real questions, at least not to me. Again, you probably disagree. As to your second point, yes, scripture is full of some pretty grim stuff. As I said, if one believes that a prophet is doing God's will, one is likely to accept that prophets sometimes do some pretty grim stuff. For someone who doesn't believe they were prophets, it's just grim stuff and need not be accepted.Theocratic Ethics in which anything is ok if it is believed God commanded it has led to many "grim" events such as Mountain Meadows, Catholic inquisitions, witch trials, suicide bombers etc. If I believe God told me to do something OR if I believe God told a prophet to tell me to do something then anything is possible. It's a little scary. Edited July 29, 2015 by HappyJackWagon 1
stemelbow Posted July 29, 2015 Author Posted July 29, 2015 Theocratic Ethics in which anything is ok if it is believed God commanded it has led to many "grim" events such as Mountain Meadows, Catholic inquisitions, witch trials, suicide bombers etc. If I believe God told me to do something OR if I believe God told a prophet to tell me to do something then anything is possible. It's a little scary. A little scary but also a little exciting--Can God really inspire an individual to do things for the good of mankind--and some of those things come off as so opposed to the traditional way of thinking that it may come off as crazy? Killing, raping, manipulating aside. maybe God can lead us individually into doing some pretty cool stuff--we otherwise might not consider.
HappyJackWagon Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 A little scary but also a little exciting--Can God really inspire an individual to do things for the good of mankind--and some of those things come off as so opposed to the traditional way of thinking that it may come off as crazy? Killing, raping, manipulating aside. maybe God can lead us individually into doing some pretty cool stuff--we otherwise might not consider.Yes, he can lead us to do cool stuff, but if we add strict obedience to leaders as primary value then it gets even scarier. We are relinquishing our will, reasoning, and conscience to someone else who claims to be telling us what God wants. 1
Storm Rider Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Was Joseph a Prophet? Boy now that is a great title for a Mormon discussion board. Just fills the heart with so much warmth and goodwill. I recommend to also have titles that question the reality of God or maybe just proclaiming our appreciation for atheism; or better yet, let's just support parents eating their children. Of course, that brings up the question of why some parents couldn't have started sooner. Enjoy the upliftingly spiritual day you have inspired in me. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Was Joseph a Prophet? Boy now that is a great title for a Mormon discussion board. Just fills the heart with so much warmth and goodwill. I recommend to also have titles that question the reality of God or maybe just proclaiming our appreciation for atheism; or better yet, let's just support parents eating their children. Of course, that brings up the question of why some parents couldn't have started sooner. Enjoy the upliftingly spiritual day you have inspired in me.A little over the top here, Storm Rider?It seems to me that is a standard question all Mormons and all investigators ask and considering that church leaders have pinned the validity of the church on the BoM and Joseph Smith it seems like a very reasonable question. 1
stemelbow Posted July 29, 2015 Author Posted July 29, 2015 Yes, he can lead us to do cool stuff, but if we add strict obedience to leaders as primary value then it gets even scarier. We are relinquishing our will, reasoning, and conscience to someone else who claims to be telling us what God wants. I agree. But I'd say, there's no simple solution to any of this. We're supposed to accept that people can be individually inspired. We're supposed to also accept the God has chosen leaders and teachers to help instruct. Both avenues can produce mistakes and problems though. None of this is fool proof.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2015/07/can-you-spare-a-few-dollars-it-neednt-be-much-if-enough-people-kick-in.htmlSo what happens if say, Joseph didn't father Josephine Lyon?Or what happens if she did?Does it make any difference to anyone?So, was he a prophet? Maybe you, Rock Pond, and Gray can all get together and have a discussion on it. Maybe you can share with us your thoughts on how much of a prophet you all think he is/was? Should be interesting. Doesn't matter if he had kids with any of his wives. So far the evidence is minimal that he did. It appears to be more of a hypothetical at this point. JS was a prophet called by God. I have no doubt in my mind. Edited July 29, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram 1
ERayR Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 I agree. But I'd say, there's no simple solution to any of this. We're supposed to accept that people can be individually inspired. We're supposed to also accept the God has chosen leaders and teachers to help instruct. Both avenues can produce mistakes and problems though. None of this is fool proof. If you wanted fool proof you should not have accepted mortality. 1
The Nehor Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 Yes, he can lead us to do cool stuff, but if we add strict obedience to leaders as primary value then it gets even scarier. We are relinquishing our will, reasoning, and conscience to someone else who claims to be telling us what God wants.If you are doing that then you are doing it wrong. 4
HappyJackWagon Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 So, was he a prophet? Maybe you, Rock Pond, and Gray can all get together and have a discussion on it. Maybe you can share with us your thoughts on how much of a prophet you all think he is/was? Should be interesting. Doesn't matter if he had kids with any of his wives. So far the evidence is minimal that he did. It appears to be more of a hypothetical at this point. JS was a prophet called by God. I have no doubt in my mind.Is it more damaging if offspring is confirmed or if there continues to be no evidence of offspring? Yes- Offspring: Confirms Joseph had marital relationships with his wives, even those married to other men No- Offspring: Defeats the purpose of practicing polygamy in raising a righteous seed to the Lord. We either get confirmation that JS behaved in ways we find inappropriate OR we get confirmation that the stated purpose of polygamy didn't seem to hold up for JS. 2
Guest Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) I suppose it depends on whether people can handle a prophet fathering a child with a married woman. Some people can handle a flawed prophet, and some can't.What child would that be, since according to DNA testing none have been found except through Emma. Got evidence others have not found? Or is this just a cheap shot? The Bible is filled with flawed Prophets...as all men are flawed. Just sayin Edited July 29, 2015 by Pa Pa
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