carbon dioxide Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Joseph was married to her right? People consummate marriages right. He was married, not sealed. Or sealed after.Do all people consummate marriages?
Robert F. Smith Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Given the firsthand testimony of several wives, I'd say it's a fairly safe bet that at least some of the marriages were consummated. If Josephine Lyon is shown not to be his biological child, it doesn't raise any real questions, at least not to me. Again, you probably disagree. As to your second point, yes, scripture is full of some pretty grim stuff. As I said, if one believes that a prophet is doing God's will, one is likely to accept that prophets sometimes do some pretty grim stuff. For someone who doesn't believe they were prophets, it's just grim stuff and need not be accepted.I think you miss the point on both counts: It is statistically improbable that none of the wives had children by him if the marriages were in fact consummated. First hand testimony is meaningless in the face of forensic evidence to the contrary. It is irrelevant whether prophets were in fact obeying God or merely deluded. One is more interested in whether there is a well-known pattern engaged in by prophets. Indeed, in his God Delusion, Richard Dawkins uses such horrific prophetic actions as a reason to deny the existence of God. One sees what one wants to see, but such predispositions tell us nothing about the existence of God(s).
Robert F. Smith Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Joseph was married to Sylvia right? People consummate marriages right? He was married, not sealed or sealed after. Why is this guy that is researching, so worried about it?BTW, my nephews all came from the Josephine line. Someone in their family who does genealogy has verified Josephine is the daughter of Joseph.Dr. Perego is a geneticist. He has been studying the DNA of possible descendants of Joseph Smith for a long time. He is not worried about it. He is just a scientist looking at a question which many people ask. So far he has found no descendants of Joseph, aside from those born to him by Emma. No, not all people consummate marriages. Some marriages are marriages of convenience, others are ceremonial. We know that Brigham Young married some wives of Joseph out of loyalty to the dead prophet, not because he needed additional sex partners. Sometimes harems are acquired for prestige and for political alignments -- so for King Solomon and for many a sultan in Arabia. 1
jkwilliams Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 I think you miss the point on both counts: It is statistically improbable that none of the wives had children by him if the marriages were in fact consummated. First hand testimony is meaningless in the face of forensic evidence to the contrary. It is irrelevant whether prophets were in fact obeying God or merely deluded. One is more interested in whether there is a well-known pattern engaged in by prophets. Indeed, in his God Delusion, Richard Dawkins uses such horrific prophetic actions as a reason to deny the existence of God. One sees what one wants to see, but such predispositions tell us nothing about the existence of God(s). The lack of children is not solid forensic evidence to the contrary, as there are a number of other possible reasons why someone could have sexual relations and not bear a child. Until there's a definitive answer with Josephine Lyon, all we have is firsthand testimony that the marriages were consummated. Given that sexuality is at the core of Joseph's stated question about adultery that led to the revelation of section 132, it seems a little odd to suggest that, once the revelation was given, sexuality was taken out of the equation. Also, Joseph's actions (the secrecy from the public and Emma, most notably) make little to no sense if sexuality were not involved. But, yes, I suppose we do see what we want to see. And I agree that "horrific prophetic actions" don't indicate the existence or nonexistence of God. How one views a prophet's actions seems to depend on whether one views him as a prophet.
jkwilliams Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Do all people consummate marriages? Nope, but when people tell us they consummated their marriage, it's fairly safe to believe them, unless there is good evidence to the contrary.
jkwilliams Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Joseph was married to Sylvia right? People consummate marriages right? He was married, not sealed or sealed after. Why is this guy that is researching, so worried about it?BTW, my nephews all came from the Josephine line. Someone in their family who does genealogy has verified Josephine is the daughter of Joseph. Josephine married John Fisher, who was the older brother of my great-grandfather. Anyway, I don't know that anyone is "worried" about this, but I think there is some interest among historians and others in tracking down any possible biological children Joseph Smith might have had. If nothing else, a positive DNA match would settle the question as to whether any of his marriages were consummated.
Bobbieaware Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 They're not. Of course, I don't believe section 132 represents the will or word of God.By the way you phrased this answer one could easily think though you don't believe section 132 contains the revealed will of God that other sections do. I would have expected you to say the entire book of Doctrine and Covenants is false. So then, do you believe some other sections of the D&C do contain the revealed will of God? Just curious to know.
jkwilliams Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 By the way you phrased this answer one could easily think though you don't believe section 132 contains the revealed will of God that other sections do. I would have expected you to say the entire book of Doctrine and Covenants is false. So then, do you believe some other sections of the D&C do contain the revealed will of God? Just curious to know. No, I don't believe Joseph Smith received the will or word of God.
KevinG Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Do all people consummate marriages? Heterosexuals who don't consummate marriages are about as frequent as celibate openly homosexual individuals. (ducks and runs...)
jkwilliams Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Heterosexuals who don't consummate marriages are about as frequent as celibate openly homosexual individuals. (ducks and runs...) I know a few LDS men who are openly gay but celibate. Didn't BYU do a video about such folks?
KevinG Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 I know a few LDS men who are openly gay but celibate. Didn't BYU do a video about such folks? They exist. They are just rare situations. And I was kidding about the claims in the BSA/SSA threads. (Tasteless humor is a talent of mine). I've seen a few videos and even a pitch for a TV show about gay men who decided to have a heterosexual marriage. I'm always wary of the reality show peeks into peoples lives because they often end in disaster when the inevitable temptation and stumbling happens, but hardly ever follow up on stories of repentance or endurance. I predicted the demise of the John and Kate +8 clan a year before it happened. Same with the Duggar's fairy tale story. Same with the polygamous arrangement in Hugh Hefner's mansion. I despise that kind of voyeuristic entertainment but I don't always control the remote in my home. Exposing a relationship that is inherently delicate to the full glare of a TV production crew and editors is not my idea of a good idea. 1
stemelbow Posted July 30, 2015 Author Posted July 30, 2015 I know a few LDS men who are openly gay but celibate. Didn't BYU do a video about such folks? I know a number too. I also know plenty who, say, after their children are grown decide, being gay is who they are and can't stay in such marriages. I guess the rate of divorce gets quite high when one is gay (who'd a thunk it?). It seems the Church's newerish advice to gay people is to stay celibate instead of the old "just get them married and everything will be alright" advice. I suspect someday the advice will change again, but for that suspecting I got someone round here who put me on a clock and has promised if I'm wrong when the time runs out he'll rub it in my face. I think that's plain adorable.
Kenngo1969 Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2015/07/can-you-spare-a-few-dollars-it-neednt-be-much-if-enough-people-kick-in.htmlSo what happens if say, Joseph didn't father Josephine Lyon?Or what happens if she did?Does it make any difference to anyone? Maury!"Joseph, you are the father ..."
Gray Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) If you want to say Joseph Smith never consummated these marriages, you need to call into question the integrity of many of his wives who said they did. As I understand it, most of the DNA testing done to date has not been on the most likely of candidates, although I can't remember where I read that. In any case, my wife and I didn't have a child for the first five years of our marriage. This does not constitute evidence of lack of consummation. Edited July 30, 2015 by Gray 1
Nevo Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 As I understand it, most of the DNA testing done to date has not been on the most likely of candidates, although I can't remember where I read that. This is what Don Bradley had to say about it in 2013: "Of the several alleged descendants tested and disconfirmed, most never had much chance of being Joseph's anyway. There is only one of them that I believed there was any substantive evidence for as his descendant. And the DNA evidence for another likely child (Josephine) is still pending. However, the historical evidence for her being Joseph's child is extremely strong. I believe I know of five such children--Josephine, two who died in infancy, and two I have identified in my own research and whose descendants are potentially testable."http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/60966-wrestling-with-polyandry/?p=1209265207 I think there is a good chance that Joseph Smith fathered children with Fanny Alger, Sylvia Lyon, and Olive Frost. Esther Dutcher is another possibility. 2
ERayR Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Whether Joseph consummated any or all of his marriages is or should be a concern only for those who have a problem with polygamy. That is what married people do. Now if you want to question whether (in your opinion) any or all of these marriages are/were valid marriages then that is another discussion but it seems obvious (to me) that those who participated considered them to be valid marriages. That then leaves us to make up our minds as to whether or not we can accept polygamy as part of a valid belief structure that adds value and meaning to our lives.
Gray Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 This is what Don Bradley had to say about it in 2013: "Of the several alleged descendants tested and disconfirmed, most never had much chance of being Joseph's anyway. There is only one of them that I believed there was any substantive evidence for as his descendant. And the DNA evidence for another likely child (Josephine) is still pending. However, the historical evidence for her being Joseph's child is extremely strong. I believe I know of five such children--Josephine, two who died in infancy, and two I have identified in my own research and whose descendants are potentially testable."http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/60966-wrestling-with-polyandry/?p=1209265207 I think there is a good chance that Joseph Smith fathered children with Fanny Alger, Sylvia Lyon, and Olive Frost. Esther Dutcher is another possibility. Thanks! Yes, the historical evidence for consummation is quite strong.
Gray Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Whether Joseph consummated any or all of his marriages is or should be a concern only for those who have a problem with polygamy. That is what married people do. Now if you want to question whether (in your opinion) any or all of these marriages are/were valid marriages then that is another discussion but it seems obvious (to me) that those who participated considered them to be valid marriages. That then leaves us to make up our minds as to whether or not we can accept polygamy as part of a valid belief structure that adds value and meaning to our lives. Indeed. There doesn't seem to be any controversy that Brigham Young's marriages were marriages indeed. I'm not sure why the insistence that Joseph's marriages must have been different.
ERayR Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Indeed. There doesn't seem to be any controversy that Brigham Young's marriages were marriages indeed. I'm not sure why the insistence that Joseph's marriages must have been different. Nor that if they were it would disqualify him from being a Prophet.
Gray Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Nor that if they were it would disqualify him from being a Prophet. I agree. A prophet is a spiritual teacher. What they do in their personal life doesn't change that.
Brian 2.0 Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Whether Joseph consummated any or all of his marriages is or should be a concern only for those who have a problem with polygamy. That is what married people do. Now if you want to question whether (in your opinion) any or all of these marriages are/were valid marriages then that is another discussion but it seems obvious (to me) that those who participated considered them to be valid marriages. That then leaves us to make up our minds as to whether or not we can accept polygamy as part of a valid belief structure that adds value and meaning to our lives. Agreed. It seems the "no children" argument only serves to bolster the claim that Joseph never consummated any of the polygamist marriages, or never had any polygamist marriages period. I get the impression that neither of those claims are trotted out too often as there is plenty or evidence to support he did. Proof of children only adds to the evidence that he did so a finding that he did in fact father a child doesn't change much in my mind if you know all the evidence.
jkwilliams Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Indeed. There doesn't seem to be any controversy that Brigham Young's marriages were marriages indeed. I'm not sure why the insistence that Joseph's marriages must have been different. In my experience, the difference is that Brigham was open about his marriages. Joseph concealed his marriages from the public, from his followers, and from Emma. That bothers some people a lot, and the lack of proven offspring allows them to believe that he wasn't concealing sexual relationships, just sealings. But I agree with the general sentiment: a prophet's behavior doesn't necessarily invalidate his prophetic calling.
ERayR Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 I agree. A prophet is a spiritual teacher. What they do in their personal life doesn't change that. That I can not agree with. What matters is if his actions are consistent with What God has revealed. Now we are back to personal confirmations and that is another discussion. 1
Gray Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 That I can not agree with. What matters is if his actions are consistent with What God has revealed. Now we are back to personal confirmations and that is another discussion. Well, we're operating on two very different paradigms in several respects there, but it's not terribly relevant to the topic. 1
why me Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 The question is: Was Joseph a prophet? When one considers what this young man accomplished in his life, in terms of bringing forth new religious books, such as the book of mormon and the pearl of great price, plus his revelations, plus, how he organized a new religion, plus, a builder of cities, and a builder of temples, plus, a wonderful father, plus, organizing a priesthood that was quite original considering how young boys were ordained etc, and claims of visions to do so among other things, and being persecuted for the religion that he organized, and not giving up, and facing death on a couple of ocasions and eventually dying for the faith, etc, it is hard to not see him as a prophet. Either he had an extremely high IQ to do such things above or he was a prophet or both. How else can we see him to be? 1
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