Robert F. Smith Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 I'm just saying that members of the Church tend to be unable to treat people who do not believe as they do with a proper level of respect when that person's personal beliefs are in conflict with the Church's position. Due to this, non-LDS tend to have hard feelings towards the Church because of the members. To further the Church's agenda of proselytizing those who do not believe, the members of the Church should do what they can to improve the general view of non-LDS of the LDS Church. Baking a cake for a SSM does not imply that the person baking the cake supports SSM, it implies that the member is willing to interact in an acceptably friendly and congenial manner with someone whose beliefs conflict with their own, showing love and compassion.I think that you are very wrong about ordinary LDS members and how they treat others. The same applies to the LDS Church as an organization: However, what do you make of the LDS Church contribution to the SLC Utah Pride Center, which provides a lot of help to LGBT youth? http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865631810/LDS-Church-donates-to-Utah-Pride-Centers-efforts-to-feed-homeless-youths.html?s_cid=Email-1 . 1
rpn Posted July 2, 2015 Author Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Sorry guys, the poll question is what should have been the title. I'm not asking about people's individual choices. I'm asking if anyone sees LDS doctrine as compelling refusal to bake a cake, sell flowers for or photograph a same sex marriage, and if so what is there. The counsel prohibiting any participation in abortions, includes helping someone get one (money, transportation to (I don't think transportation from is in the same category: it wouldn't have helped in having the abortion), encouraging, consenting, performing). But I don't see the accoutrements of the celebration to have anything to do with helping ss marriage happen. And whether or not one felt compelled to do it for other than LDS doctrinal reasons is also not the question. I'm interested in whether anyone thinks LDS doctrine compels refusal, and if so what doctrine or policy. Edited July 2, 2015 by rpn
KevinG Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 Sorry guys, the poll question is what should have been the title. I'm not asking about people's individual choices. I'm asking if anyone sees LDS doctrine as compelling refusal to bake a cake, sell flowers for or photograph a same sex marriage, and if so what is there. The counsel prohibiting any participation in abortions, includes helping someone get one (money, transportation, encouraging). But I don't see the accoutrements of the celebration to have anything to do with helping ss marriage happen. And whether or not one felt compelled to do it for other than LDS doctrinal reasons is also not the question. I'm interested in whether anyone thinks LDS doctrine compels refusal, and if so what doctrine or policy. I think LDS Doctrine (and Christian Doctrine in general) argue heavily that we should bake cakes for Same Sex Marriage receptions if asked. We are talking about providing a treat within the bounds of the word of wisdom, not solemnizing a marriage in the Temple. Just a short list of principles involved: CharityRespecting other's agencyChrist dining with lawyers and other of ill reputeLoveService 2
KevinG Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 P.S. Who knew that Marie Antoinette was a GBLTIQ ally? That was a women ahead of her time.
Zakuska Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 your post appears to bind all Church members to one course of action, baking the cake. I can't accept that any more than I can accept assertions that you can't be a good Mormon while being a Democrat. You can't. j/k (Could not resist)
Ahab Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 Sorry guys, the poll question is what should have been the title. I'm not asking about people's individual choices. I'm asking if anyone sees LDS doctrine as compelling refusal to bake a cake, sell flowers for or photograph a same sex marriage, and if so what is there.The counsel prohibiting any participation in abortions, includes helping someone get one (money, transportation to (I don't think transportation from is in the same category: it wouldn't have helped in having the abortion), encouraging, consenting, performing). But I don't see the accoutrements of the celebration to have anything to do with helping ss marriage happen.And whether or not one felt compelled to do it for other than LDS doctrinal reasons is also not the question.I'm interested in whether anyone thinks LDS doctrine compels refusal, and if so what doctrine or policy.The doctrines of free agency and not violating our own conscience compel refusal to any person who feels and thinks their cooperation would essentially be in support of what they deem to be a sinful act.Nobody has the right to force or compel anyone else to do what that person feels and thinks is wrong. Any such law is an unrighteous law of unrighteous dominion. 1
bluebell Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 And yet the LDS Church has officially supported legislation in Utah which prohibits anti-gay discrimination in housing, employment, etc. So, would a good LDS member feel comfortable renting to, or employing a homosexual? Or a Samaritan? Or an African-American? Or a polygynist? Should we allow them to live among us? Who is "us," and who is "them." I'm not exactly sure what your post had to do with mine. The church has also supported religious freedom laws. And church members all the time refuse to provide services or products that they disagree with (i know some who won't sell cigarettes or alcohol in their stores, for example). I wouldn't personally refuse to make a SSM wedding cake, but i don't think that those who do are secretly members of the kkk and are just looking for an excuse to get rid of "them". They don't want to support an action that they believe to be sinful. If they can legally refuse (which is the bigger question) then they should be able to. 2
KevinG Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 P.S. Who knew that Marie Antoinette was a GBLTIQ ally? That was a women ahead of her time. Did no one get this? Or was it just that bad of a pun?
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) I wouldn't bake a SSM celebration cake. that is called discrimination, many evangelicals probably won't bake a Mormon (temple) cake. It is a business, not a church. If you are an employer, would you hire a SSM husband? Edited July 2, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
Jacob Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 I'm not exactly sure what your post had to do with mine. The church has also supported religious freedom laws. And church members all the time refuse to provide services or products that they disagree with (i know some who won't sell cigarettes or alcohol in their stores, for example). I wouldn't personally refuse to make a SSM wedding cake, but i don't think that those who do are secretly members of the kkk and are just looking for an excuse to get rid of "them". They don't want to support an action that they believe to be sinful. If they can legally refuse (which is the bigger question) then they should be able to. I think the question turns from whether it is supporting a practice or supporting a "Brother/Sister". Where is the line between not supporting something that you disagree with to treating someone in a manner that is contrary to loving one's neighbor?
rodheadlee Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 If I stopped doing business with customers because I didn't like their lifestyle or considered them a sinner (aren't we all?) I soon wouldn't have any customers. I also think I should have the right of refusal without giving a reason. 3
Ahab Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 I think the question turns from whether it is supporting a practice or supporting a "Brother/Sister". Where is the line between not supporting something that you disagree with to treating someone in a manner that is contrary to loving one's neighbor?You should support all of your brothers and sisters by doing only what is good for them, weighing the needs/desires of the many against the needs/desires of the few or the one.Just because some brothers or sisters want you to cooperate with their sinful desire doesn't mean you should support their sinful desire. With love, say No, and explain to them the reason why if you think they want to understand your reasons for not wanting to support sinful desires.
Jacob Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 Also, is it just to deny a SSM the cake? It seems that another implication is whether you are punishing them for their "sin", isn't it God's purview to judge them and mete the punishment accordingly? If they are punished by members here, are members robbing God of His right to punish His child? As a father I have issue when one of my children decides to take it upon themselves to punish another child for something they have done wrong because doing something is not their right.
Jacob Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 You should support all of your brothers and sisters by doing only what is good for them, weighing the needs/desires of the many against the needs/desires of the few or the one.Just because some brothers or sisters want you to cooperate with their sinful desire doesn't mean you should support their sinful desire. With love, say No, and explain to them the reason why if you think they want to understand your reasons for not wanting to support sinful desires. What is the impact of baking a cake or not baking a cake for a SSM? What is the effect of such actions? Does it promote SSM to bake the cake then?
Ahab Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 Also, is it just to deny a SSM the cake? It seems that another implication is whether you are punishing them for their "sin", isn't it God's purview to judge them and mete the punishment accordingly? If they are punished by members here, are members robbing God of His right to punish His child? As a father I have issue when one of my children decides to take it upon themselves to punish another child for something they have done wrong because doing something is not their right.All I was talking about was lack of cooperation. If you don't want to support what someone else wants you to do, that is your right, and if what someone wants you to do is sinful, then it is not only your right but also your Christian duty, and good, to not do something sinful that someone wants you to do.
Jacob Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 All I was talking about was lack of cooperation. If you don't want to support what someone else wants you to do, that is your right, and if what someone wants you to do is sinful, then it is not only your right but also your Christian duty, and good, to not do something sinful that someone wants you to do.I understand, I did not mean to impugn your statement. I believe that members, and people in general that are against the Equal Rights movement, are wrong. I believe that the treatment that the LGBT community has received, in general, is not in keeping with a Christian position. I serve on the leadership committee for the Pride Festival in SLC every year. I have witnessed a lot of the bigotry and discrimination first hand. I don't agree with homosexuality, but I love the people and some of the most loving people I know are active in Pride and most are LGBT. I have not experienced the selfless love that many of these individuals display in any other setting, including when I was actively LDS. Even if I were actively LDS still, I would continue my support there. I hope that, by presenting various questions and positions that I hold, others will treat these people with more of a Christian attitude than they currently do. The behavior of too many makes me question their own position with regards to the commandment to love thy neighbor, regardless of their position on LGBT practices. 1
JLHPROF Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 Being LDS doesn't "Compel" anything. That's the great thing about agency. 3
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) I wouldn't bake a SSM celebration cake. that is called discrimination, many evangelicals probably won't bake a Mormon (temple) cake. If you are an employer, would you hire a SSM husband? Nor a cake promoting white supremacy If you had a business, you shouldn't discriminate a racist couple, there is no need to get down to their level. PS it is not a good idea to compare gay marriage to white supremacy, just like it is not nice when someone compares our religion to white supremacy. Edited July 2, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
Calm Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 Nobody has the right to force or compel anyone else to do what that person feels and thinks is wrong. Any such law is an unrighteous law of unrighteous dominion.Perhaps not, but they have the power to force and compel at times and just because some law is unrighteous doesn't mean someone isn't going to go to jail, pay fines, lose tax exempt status or whatever if they refuse to comply with it.
Calm Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 P.S. Who knew that Marie Antoinette was a GBLTIQ ally? That was a women ahead of her time.I was looking for a 'off with her head' emoticon, but they were all too gory for the board, I fear. Sorry.
KevinG Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 I was looking for a 'off with her head' emoticon, but they were all too gory for the board, I fear. Sorry.
Ahab Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 Perhaps not, but they have the power to force and compel at times and just because some law is unrighteous doesn't mean someone isn't going to go to jail, pay fines, lose tax exempt status or whatever if they refuse to comply with it.Yep. It's usually referred to as persecution. As a follower of Christ I expect to be treated unrighteously by the masses. It is worth it.
thatjimguy Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) As far as serving someone, we consider alcohol a sin, but plenty of people serve to non-members. Edited July 2, 2015 by thatjimguy
Calm Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 we consider alcohol a sin Only for those who covenant not to drink it. Drinking alcohol in itself is not a sin...or Christ sinned and intends to sin again. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 2, 2015 Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Only for those who covenant not to drink it It is also a sin for non-members. "repent of your sins in all sincerity, then go forth and be baptized, and have hands laid upon you for the gift of the Holy Ghost" Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, (2011), 59–66 "Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God" Moses 8:24 Edited July 2, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
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