Jacob Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 But the real stickler is deciding who gets to define what is arbitrary and what isn't.Which is where the debate exists.
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Which is where the debate exists. And must ultimately reside in the choice of the individual.
Jacob Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 And must ultimately reside in the choice of the individual.I agree, but at the same time, one should make an attempt at persuasion imo.
Ahab Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 I agree, but at the same time, one should make an attempt at persuasion imo.Okay. Everybody, please don't do anything that could reasonably be interpreted as an expression of supporting a sinful act.A cake is usually used to celebrate an event.Please do not celebrate when people commit a sin.How was that for an attempt at persuasion?
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) I agree, but at the same time, one should make an attempt at persuasion imo. Only if it is relevant or you just want to argue. Edited July 6, 2015 by ERayR
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Okay. Everybody, please don't do anything that could reasonably be interpreted as an expression of supporting a sinful act.A cake is usually used to celebrate an event.Please do not celebrate when people commit a sin.How was that for an attempt at persuasion? I am only interested in my limiting my own sins . I definitely will not eat any cake.
Ahab Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 I am only interested in my limiting my own sins . I definitely will not eat any cake.Heh, no, I'm sure you'd be interested in helping me and some other people limit our own sins too if you could and would do whatever you could to help us.And cakes can be used to celebrate good things, too. 1
Jacob Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Only if it is relevant or you just want to argue.Yeah, I agree.
ERayR Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Heh, no, I'm sure you'd be interested in helping me and some other people limit our own sins too if you could and would do whatever you could to help us.And cakes can be used to celebrate good things, too. I don't know what I can do. Nobody pays any attention to me or else they only want to argue. I thought we were talking about wedding cakes for SSM.
rpn Posted July 6, 2015 Author Posted July 6, 2015 Are you saying that someone who refused to buy and use a same gender couple cake topper is discriminating?
Stargazer Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 I wonder how many LDS employers will not hire a man just for being in a SSM. Are you in favor of Employment discrimination? I am LDS. TBM, in fact. I like to discriminate in employment based upon the ability to do the job, and work ethic. I know, I know, I'm a bigot, but there we are. I can tell you that although my business does not yet have employees (and may never do so), I can tell you in advance that if I can find a person who can do the job I need done in a competent and teamworthy manner, then that person will be hired, regardless of the form of sexual union he or she may be in. 1
Stargazer Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 I think a 100 years from now 99% of the population will look back at LDS who refused to do such things as baking a cake as bigoted and prejudiced and with sadness. They might have to look back with a darned powerful microscope, because to date I haven't heard of any LDS who have refused to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding. If we are in the Millennium a hundred years from now, though, what do you suppose the population is going to think about this?
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 I can tell you that although my business does not yet have employees (and may never do so), I can tell you in advance that if I can find a person who can do the job I need done in a competent and teamworthy manner, then that person will be hired, regardless of the form of sexual union he or she may be in. Good They might have to look back with a darned powerful microscope, because to date I haven't heard of any LDS who have refused to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding. Five voted yes It says what it says. Just giving you a chance to go back and study and perhaps get a bit of understanding of what it is really all about. Matthew 5:9
Stargazer Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Like I said, I don't believe I would refuse to bake a wedding cake for a same sex marriage. That being said, what about these other situations, how do you think the baker should roll? David Duke comes into your bakery and orders a cake with a KKK theme. The saying on the cake is: "Congratulations New Grand Dragon!" You are not black, nor Jewish, but you despise the KKK and David Duke. Do you bake the cake?A man you know to be a local Mormon bishop comes into your bakery and orders a cake for his daughter who is being married in the Temple. The bishop provides a plastic model of the Salt Lake Temple to top the cake with. He asks for "Together Forever" to be decorated into the cake. You are a devout Southern Baptist and believe that the Mormon Church is the spawn of Satan. Do you bake the cake?The First Secretary of the local Communist Party presidium comes into your bakery to order a cake to help celebrate the CP's Mayday celebration. The cake will feature images of Marx and Lenin. Your wife's parents were both taken captive as civilians at the end of WW2 and were taken into the Soviet Union for slave labor, leaving your then 4-year-old wife and her sisters abandoned in a burnt-out village. Your father-in-law died, your mother-in-law barely survived to tell her tale. You hate Communism and all its works. Do you bake the cake?Are any of the customers in these vignettes protected under anti-discrimination laws? The third case has personal ramifications for me, and the story is my wife's family's story. I would tell the dirty Commie to get out of my shop and shove his cake where the sun doesn't shine. If he came into my shop for a simple birthday cake, however, I would be happy to provide it for him, regardless of what political party he belonged to. Yes and before some nitwit context-switcher asks me in mock horror if I am comparing SSM with Communism, the answer is No. And watch this: someone is going to tell me that I MUST bake the communist cake, regardless of my personal convictions about it being celebrating evil. And if a Southern Baptist baker refused to bake my daughter's temple wedding cake because he hates the Mormon Church, I would thank him politely and go find someone who would bake the cake. And I'd make sure all my friends knew about his feelings -- I wouldn't want him inconvenienced by evil Mormonites walking into his shop, after all. Edited July 8, 2015 by Stargazer 1
Stargazer Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Five voted yes Any of those five bakers, to your knowledge? Since a large majority here would bake the cake, this suggests to my mind that LDS bakers, by and large, would bake the cake.
Calm Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Are any of the five actually LDS? Did anyone match themselves to a yes vote?
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Are any of the five actually LDS? Did anyone match themselves to a yes vote? Alan did say yes, see his comment in post 3. I hope the other four are not LDS.
Tacenda Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 So, you have an overpowering urge to add habanero peppers to all your cakes?Stargazer, you crack me up sometimes!
Tacenda Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Any of those five bakers, to your knowledge? Since a large majority here would bake the cake, this suggests to my mind that LDS bakers, by and large, would bake the cake.I totally picture LDS baking the cake for a SSM couple! Unless it has something vulgar or inappropriate requested to be shown on it, that would cover all couples, gay or not. LDS people I know anyway.
Maedros Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Those who don't bake the cake won't be in business for long. (1) making money is the fundamental purpose of a business so why reject the money and (2) they will protest against you and make a big who-hah until you have no customers and are forced to close down or start baking those cakes. The only way to win against the LGBT community is to accept and tolerate - its their time now, for centuries they were ridiculed and restricted and now they are fighting back and winning. Not in Russia though - people there have the right view on the matter.
ERayR Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Alan did say yes, see his comment in post 3. I hope the other four are not LDS. Why? Don't LDS have a right to have a differing opinion, right or wrong? Their opinion has no effect on you.
ERayR Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 Those who don't bake the cake won't be in business for long. (1) making money is the fundamental purpose of a business so why reject the money and (2) they will protest against you and make a big who-hah until you have no customers and are forced to close down or start baking those cakes. The only way to win against the LGBT community is to accept and tolerate - its their time now, for centuries they were ridiculed and restricted and now they are fighting back and winning. Not in Russia though - people there have the right view on the matter. So the only way to fight evil is to embrace it? I do not get that message from my gospel study.
ERayR Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 I totally picture LDS baking the cake for a SSM couple! Unless it has something vulgar or inappropriate requested to be shown on it, that would cover all couples, gay or not. LDS people I know anyway. I agree with you but still hold that each should have the right to reach a different conclusion.
Calm Posted July 8, 2015 Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Not in Russia though - people there have the right view on the matter. You mean these views? In 2013, 16% of Russians surveyed said that gay people should be isolated from society, 22% said they should be forced to undergo treatment, and 5% said homosexuals should be "liquidated". I am thinking probably not. You should probably identify what you agree with rather than just a blanket statement given the level of violence against homosexuals in Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia Edited July 8, 2015 by calmoriah
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Why? Don't LDS have a right to have a differing opinion, right or wrong? They have the right to think what ever they want, but why do you ask? Don't I have the right to hope? Why do you always try to paint me as intolerant and authoritarian? That is the same strategy the Fox News people are using. I am simply someone that takes the researchers seriously because they do their homework, doesn't mean I think they are superior. Edited July 9, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
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