Defending The Faith: Why Some Are Convinced And Others Aren't

[Mystery Meat]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865630923/Why-some-are-convinced-and-others-arent.html?pg=2

 

Dan Peterson wrote an interesting piece with many good thoughts from the Book of Mormon. Most interesting to me was this line at the end:

 

 

 

But our circles of friends, our social networks and our desire for their approval also impact our judgments: Fellowship with those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints tends to nurture and preserve faith. On the other hand, close association with critics and cynics, in person or online, will, over time, likely weaken faith and may even destroy it.

 

I have very much seen this to be true. 

 

[carbon dioxide]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865630923/Why-some-are-convinced-and-others-arent.html?pg=2

 

Dan Peterson wrote an interesting piece with many good thoughts from the Book of Mormon. Most interesting to me was this line at the end:

 

 

I have very much seen this to be true. 

 

It is true in life.  Better to have your kid grow up around with good friends than bad friends.  Nothing wrong with associating with negative people as long as we keep some distance between us and them. 

[Storm Rider]

I find the significant factor in relationships is the toxicity quotient - what works and what does not work.  I am basically a hedonist in my personal time; I enjoy things that are fun.  If you are not fun, I don't have a lot of time to share with you.  When I am in the process of serving others then I have all the time in the world to serve you regardless of where you come from or your current attitude.  When I am in a service mode then I am not seeking social friends, but there is an objective that is being sought.  

 

It is highly enjoyable to find friends that inspire and uplift while still able to accept my current state of being.  

 

Being around a "critic", the kind that is like a walking porcupine that seeks opportunities to be offended or to attack my belief systems is not someone I need or want to be around.  

 

Dan has this right and we need to be more conscious of our motivations for being around others.  The more we are in a service mode the easier it is to be completely tolerant while remaining insulated from the barbs and attacks of others.  

[Robert F. Smith]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865630923/Why-some-are-convinced-and-others-arent.html?pg=2

 

Dan Peterson wrote an interesting piece with many good thoughts from the Book of Mormon. Most interesting to me was this line at the end:

 

 

I have very much seen this to be true. 

 

Is Peterson suggesting some sort of contagion among the anti-Mormon crowd, and that we can "catch" it if we hang out with them?

[theplains]

Is Peterson suggesting some sort of contagion among the anti-Mormon crowd, and that we can "catch" it if we hang out with them?

 

I find that Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists are nice people too, but I would

not consider it contagion to hang around with them despite our theological differences.

 

Regards,

Jim

[mfbukowski]

Is Peterson suggesting some sort of contagion among the anti-Mormon crowd, and that we can "catch" it if we hang out with them?

It sounds like that.  If that is what he is saying, to me, it becomes a tacit admission that they have the ability to make a good and valid case against the church if we hear it often enough

 

The other side of that is that we all believe Mormonism because we hang around with Mormons and no other valid reason.  We just are all little robots who accept whatever we hear and cannot think for ourselves.

 

If that is what he is saying, I think he is very wrong.

[mfbukowski]

On the other hand, the article is very short and is just kind of a feel-good, "hang out with positive people and they will help you remain positive" piece.

 

It's hard to take such a short piece too seriously!   He probably knocked it out in 15 minutes without thinking much about it.

[Kenngo1969]

If I find myself in what could be a negative situation because of the attitudes of the people involved, I try (though I'm more successful sometimes at this than other times) to light their candles rather than allowing them to extinguish mine.  It's important to consider our objective in any given interaction with people like that, and to stay realistic about the chances for achieving such an objective.

[Duncan]

I think it's good to know why people are leaving like as we learn in Luke 15 with the lady with the lost coin, is there anything we are doing to  cause it?

[mfbukowski]

I think it's good to know why people are leaving like as we learn in Luke 15 with the lady with the lost coin, is there anything we are doing to  cause it?

Some are leaving because we cannot deal with those who understand only secularism.  They find meaning in their lives without God and do not know they could have much more WITH God.  Besides that, they do not believe in vague gods that do not make sense.

 

We are positioned to help these people and we are not doing it because we are too busy trying to be traditional christians instead of Mormons.

 

We need fewer essays on how we are like Evangelicals or Catholics and more on how we are different as materialists who worship a human Christ and his human Father.

 

Aren't you glad you asked?

[Robert F. Smith]

Some are leaving because we cannot deal with those who understand only secularism.  They find meaning in their lives without God and do not know they could have much more WITH God.  Besides that, they do not believe in vague gods that do not make sense.

 

We are positioned to help these people and we are not doing it because we are too busy trying to be traditional christians instead of Mormons.

 

We need fewer essays on how we are like Evangelicals or Catholics and more on how we are different as materialists who worship a human Christ and his human Father.

.....................................................................

I agree, Mark, so what do you make of the conversation on this board at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65527-baptist-scholar-claims-shift-in-mormon-doctrine/ , in which a Baylor University professor's opinions are discussed?  He says that Mormon beliefs are shifting inexorably toward traditional Christianity.  Is this the inevitable result of hanging out with, and seeking the approval of mainstream Christians?

[mfbukowski]

It sounds like that.  If that is what he is saying, to me, it becomes a tacit admission that they have the ability to make a good and valid case against the church if we hear it often enough

 

The other side of that is that we all believe Mormonism because we hang around with Mormons and no other valid reason.  We just are all little robots who accept whatever we hear and cannot think for ourselves.

 

If that is what he is saying, I think he is very wrong.

No Bukowski, you idiot!  Just today this came out-which is the direct opposite of what you are saying.

 

Get it together there Bukowski!   http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/questioning-the-divine-plan/

[mfbukowski]

I agree, Mark, so what do you make of the conversation on this board at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65527-baptist-scholar-claims-shift-in-mormon-doctrine/ , in which a Baylor University professor's opinions are discussed?  He says that Mormon beliefs are shifting inexorably toward traditional Christianity.  Is this the inevitable result of hanging out with, and seeking the approval of mainstream Christians?

Yes, I saw that.

 

I don't know the answer Bob except to prove to people that that is not the direction we want to go, unless we want to go the way that Evangelicals and Catholics are going.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/the-decline-of-evangelical-america.html?_r=0

 

On the other hand, secular "religions" are growing and taking over Christianity.  http://www.the-american-interest.com/2014/03/17/the-rise-of-secular-religion/

 

We are perfectly poised to bridge the gap if we only understand that.

Edited June 20, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Trying to prove we are just like "The Christians" is like trying to get ON the Titanic after it was headed under.

 

I have never understood it.

[The Nehor]

It sounds like that.  If that is what he is saying, to me, it becomes a tacit admission that they have the ability to make a good and valid case against the church if we hear it often enough

 

The other side of that is that we all believe Mormonism because we hang around with Mormons and no other valid reason.  We just are all little robots who accept whatever we hear and cannot think for ourselves.

I think you are assuming reason plays a much larger role in our lives then it actually does.

[canard78]

If the sustainability of Mormon faith is dependent on hiding in the "long grass" of fellow believers and is undermined by associating with people who are sceptical or cynical about it then surely there is an issue with the faith in the first place?

Out of interest, given I have, at times, expressed both criticism and scepticism about LDS history and doctrine, do any of you who have interacted extensively with me find your faith troubled?

FWIW it was never my intention to undermine someone else's and instead my objective was to explore and evaluate my own.

[Bobbieaware]

It sounds like that. If that is what he is saying, to me, it becomes a tacit admission that they have the ability to make a good and valid case against the church if we hear it often enough

The other side of that is that we all believe Mormonism because we hang around with Mormons and no other valid reason. We just are all little robots who accept whatever we hear and cannot think for ourselves.

If that is what he is saying, I think he is very wrong.

It seems to me Peterson is simply restating the same warning and wise counsel Paul gave the saints nearly two millennia ago:

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? (2 Corinthinans 6)

and...

33 Be not deceived: evil companions corrupt good character. (1Corinthinans 15)

Edited June 20, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Storm Rider]

Is Peterson suggesting some sort of contagion among the anti-Mormon crowd, and that we can "catch" it if we hang out with them?

 

No, I don't think he is and attempting to classify being around negative things a contagion seems more like belittling a position without addressing it.  My mom used to say that "you cannot go down a chimney without getting any soot on you".  This simple logic supports Dan's position.  

 

To juxtapose his position is to say that we can hang around negative, contrary people all day every day without any impact on oneself.  I think that is naive because it proposes that we as individuals are superhuman and incapable of being influenced by the actions and words of others indefinitely.  Who are friends are has an impact on us.  Friends are not acquaintances or people we see infrequently.  

 

It seems as if simple logic and counsel given for centuries is to be discounted in the exaggeration of personal invincibility and individuality.  

[mfbukowski]

I think you are assuming reason plays a much larger role in our lives then it actually does.

I concede that I am weird. It took me ten years as an atheist to figure out why it is rational to believe in God, and another ten to figure out that a bunch of Utah farmers actually had "the true humanist church".

I tried Arkansas and Louisiana, but they dint have nuthin

Edited June 20, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

What do the words "A pitcher of water" mean?

In Utah it might mean "a painting of the ocean"

Just giving you a hard time- love you all, and ducking for cover.

[ERayR]

Is Peterson suggesting some sort of contagion among the anti-Mormon crowd, and that we can "catch" it if we hang out with them?

 

I don't know what DP is suggesting but it has been my experience that it certainly works that way.

[ERayR]

It sounds like that.  If that is what he is saying, to me, it becomes a tacit admission that they have the ability to make a good and valid case against the church if we hear it often enough

 

The other side of that is that we all believe Mormonism because we hang around with Mormons and no other valid reason.  We just are all little robots who accept whatever we hear and cannot think for ourselves.

 

If that is what he is saying, I think he is very wrong.

Or if one primarily listens to them long enough it begins to sound reasonable.

[rodheadlee]

What do the words "A pitcher of water" mean?

In Utah it might mean "a painting of the ocean"

Just giving you a hard time- love you all, and ducking for cover.

Someone who throws water balloons?

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't know what DP is suggesting but it has been my experience that it certainly works that way.

 

Or if one primarily listens to them long enough it begins to sound reasonable.

I spent many years in the company of anti-Mormons (including Wes Walters), heard all they had to say, and took lots of notes.  I was never close to being convinced by them, but I did understand and appreciate them (they were very sincere).  However, I brought with me a good background in ancient Near Eastern and biblical studies (Hebrew, archeology, etc.), and with a good understanding of Mormon theology and history.

 

Wes Walters, who also knew some Hebrew, would be lecturing the congregation, come to a biblical name, Lo-ammi, and he would say:  "What does that mean, Bob?"  I'd reply "Not-My-People," and then he would go on.

[ERayR]

I spent many years in the company of anti-Mormons (including Wes Walters), heard all they had to say, and took lots of notes.  I was never close to being convinced by them, but I did understand and appreciate them (they were very sincere).  However, I brought with me a good background in ancient Near Eastern and biblical studies (Hebrew, archeology, etc.), and with a good understanding of Mormon theology and history.

 

Wes Walters, who also knew some Hebrew, would be lecturing the congregation, come to a biblical name, Lo-ammi, and he would say:  "What does that mean, Bob?"  I'd reply "Not-My-People," and then he would go on.

 

Now I can say I know one person who it did not harm that way.  At least until I review your posts.