hope_for_things Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 I had no idea that worshipping God being arequirement for Celestial glory would be controversial in LDS teachings. It seems more like the 101 class.Its the statement that I have a problem with Who can pretend to know whether someone can make it into the Celestial kingdom or not. It's a silly statement to make, so I'm wondering if he's joking or trying to provoke someone to respond, in which case I guess you can say I took the bate. ugh... sometimes its hard to resist
mfbukowski Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 John 4:23 is a good example of the command but it's only one of many verses that essentially say the same thing- "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." I want to understand better why God seeks our worship. In any other aspect of life, someone who wanted others to worship them would be considered self-centered and prideful-the opposite of humble in every way. Even if the person was worthy of worship, their desire for it or requirement of it would be interpreted as them having a major character flaw. After all, the greatest among us is a Servant (and servants aren't worshipped), as Christ taught. So again, why does God want us to worship Him? What is worship and why is it required?It is required to get us out of our own Egos, and truly understand that there is someone greater than ourselves. One could argue even as an atheist that God is within ourselves and IS our "best self" with whom we need to "communicate" Worship brings out the best in ourselves. I am not an atheist- for me there is clearly a being "out there" with whom I communicate. Others argue that I am talking to myself. I disagree with that opinion, but for me it doesn't really matter. If I know for certain (impossible) that there was no God, I would still worship the concept of the Ideal Man and try to become one. I would submit myself the The Ideal and do what was necessary for me to become the best human I could be, judged by the standard I set for myself, as my concept of The Ideal Being. But the spirit has told me that there is an intelligence out there it is apart from me, who is teaching me principles in my life to make me a better human being. 1
strappinglad Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) I'm trying to think why I would bow down and grovel before anyone. Fear of destruction of myself or my loved ones tops the list. Now, bowing in gratitude does make sense and that would be a willing posture but only upon the realization that whatever blessing I have received was great and impossible to achieve on my own. I prefer to think of worship as an extension of the commandment to" honor thy father and mother " . It is a respect thing and is given from my free will , not forced by fear, even though the ancients carried the enforcement of that commandment to extremes. And in our time, the pendulum has swung WAY too far the other direction ! Edited May 21, 2015 by strappinglad 2
mfbukowski Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 One cannot become an Ideal Human without doing all that one can to become such, and that includes holding that Ideal above oneself, and contemplating that Ideal fervently. ("One must worship God to achieve the celestial kingdom") 2
mfbukowski Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 I do agree and have said as much.But that topic doesn't have anything to do with the OP. I'm not wondering whether or not we should worship God, I'm wondering why He commands that worship.One must contemplate to Ideal in order to emulate it. Without the Ideal concept one cannot become like it. It is a law of nature ("commandment") That is just how the world works, like a law of physics. It has been called "Natural Law"
mfbukowski Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Don't let the models get in the way- look for the truth behind the model 1
Stargazer Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Back in High School an acquaintance of mine said he rejected the concept of "worship." I wondered what he meant, exactly, but at the time I thought he probably meant the idea of coming to church, singing hymns and suchlike. I wish I had asked him what he meant. It might have resulted in a good conversation. As has been said, God desires worshippers, but He cannot desire them for his own sake, except for the fact that it is his purpose to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And to achieve this, we must worship Him. It is because the process of worship is essential to God's purpose. Worship is service. Come to church and teach a lesson, or participate as a class member in the lesson. That's worship. Visit the widows and the sick in their affliction. That's worship. Pray privately in your own closet. Worship again. Pray publicly as the invocation at the start of a meeting. Again. I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. 2
mfbukowski Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Read and digest D&C 93 and you will have the answer to your question.Absolutely!
mfbukowski Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Absolutely!Read that as if it were talking about how to become the Perfect Man (Christ) Apply it to each of our individual journeys at becoming like Christ Each of us is Christ in embryo Edited May 21, 2015 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) I think that Gray is right: It is for our benefit. God himself is selfless and generous. Indeed, his whole purpose is our advancement as his children. "this is my work and my glory -- to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Moses 1:39 Moreover, worship is liturgical ritual, which is essential to bridging the gap between worlds, and to allowing priesthood power to have the desired effect throughout eternity. We perform actions and say words (even if figurative) which are required to move that power through the vast cosmos. Magic and religion share that common thread.Ritual frees the mind from mundane things and opens us up to symbolic thinking which is the gateway to truth. It is another language just like, in many ways "body language" which communicates almost on an unconscious level. Regardless or words, one can tell if the other person is confident, or frightened or lying, or being forthright. I sometimes have taught temple newbies that the temple rituals are like ASL in that there are consistent symbolic meanings for the gestures. Imagine a sacred space where people are speaking sign language but no one ever taught you the signs, because they are sacred and speaking their meanings is prohibited, and to do so would profane their meanings, precisely because they are meant to convey MORE than mere words. One symbol can convey volumes, and many symbols conjoined truly opens the mind to infinity. One could take a lifetime to decipher all that is there, but many don't even know it is there, and leave saying "Is that all there is?" So terribly sad! Imagine seeing an ASL interpreter and not knowing what was happening. "Why is that crazy person waving their arms?? How ridiculous!!" Edited May 21, 2015 by mfbukowski 2
mfbukowski Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Well, I don't believe God needs us to worship him though I can understand why he might want us to only because the proper exercise of worship reflects more exactly the individual's state of mind - a state that approximates us to our God and better allows us to maximize our potential here in this temporality. The bigger issue as I see it is whether we worship reluctantly or even out of obligation. Worship comes naturally as we get to know our Father in Heaven. It doesn't come because we were told we needed to in our Sunday School class. The finest principles naturally result from intimacy with our God and not from a checklist. Oh I remember you! Good to see you back!
The Nehor Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Its the statement that I have a problem with Who can pretend to know whether someone can make it into the Celestial kingdom or not. It's a silly statement to make, so I'm wondering if he's joking or trying to provoke someone to respond, in which case I guess you can say I took the bate. ugh... sometimes its hard to resist God can not only pretend to do that but He can actually do it. If God says something like only those who worship him shall have eternal life then we kind of have to go with it.
janderich Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) On this matter of worship Bruce R. McConkie said, "And he has planted in our hearts an instinctive desire to worship, to seek salvation, to love and serve a power or being greater than ourselves. Worship is implicit in existence itself" ("How to Worship", Ensign Dec. 1971). Or as C.S. Lewis put it, "All enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless . . . shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it" (“A Word About Praising” in Reflections on the Psalms). To me this is the crux of the matter. Does enjoyment of a thing inevitably spill into worship? For example, if I hear a piece of music and it is absolutely beautiful do I not want to say how wonderful it is? In other words, to gain the full enjoyment I must express it in some way. I claim that this is worship. It has nothing to do with a selfish God who needs man to give him honor.Because worship is the complete expression of respect, honor, and enjoyment in man, the heavens are filled with it. That is why the celestial hosts could not be restrained when Christ came to earth (Luke 2:12-14). And also why Lehi saw numberless concourses of angels praising God (1 Ne 1:8 ). Our weak expressions of respect given to God are a pittance of what we will feel when God is revealed to us in all his glory, and I think we will not wonder at all why we worship Him. Edited May 21, 2015 by janderich
CV75 Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 So again, why does God want us to worship Him? What is worship and why is it required?I think it is because we cannot enjoy what He does and what He wants to share with us without loving Him for who He is and doing the things He does (to the degree that we can in good faith) out of love. 2
JLHPROF Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Are you being serious when you make a comment like that, about not making it into the Celestial Kingdom, or are you just goofing around and or trying to be edgy to see if someone will reply to your statement? I had no idea that worshipping God being arequirement for Celestial glory would be controversial in LDS teachings. It seems more like the 101 class. Its the statement that I have a problem with Who can pretend to know whether someone can make it into the Celestial kingdom or not. It's a silly statement to make, so I'm wondering if he's joking or trying to provoke someone to respond, in which case I guess you can say I took the bate. ugh... sometimes its hard to resist I wasn't joking and fail to understand your irritation.The scriptures are clear what is required to enter the Celestial Kingdom and what is required to be exalted in that kingdom. It's not silly at all to include worship (through ordinances, prayer, temple work etc) in the requirements for these. I am judging no individual. But the requirements for the Celestial Kingdom are very well spelled out and don't get adjusted for individuals. 1
hope_for_things Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 God can not only pretend to do that but He can actually do it. If God says something like only those who worship him shall have eternal life then we kind of have to go with it. Yes, but when did God ever say those words? We have words in the scriptures, written by men, not by God. I believe worship is important too, but I think it’s important to keep in perspective what the scriptures are, and not claim that the words of the scriptures are verbatim recordings of a God speaking in English. They often represent the views and biases of the writers and redactors and can frequently be antithetical to the actual will of God. I guess I’m just less confident that God actually wants us to worship him in order to earn salvation; I don’t think it’s a requirement.
bluebell Posted May 21, 2015 Author Posted May 21, 2015 This is what I'm referring to. Is it not a commandment to worship God? Can one make it to the Celestial Kingdom if they never worship God? I think it probably depends on how someone defines worship. Can someone who has spent their life trying to do the will of God as they understand it but has never 'sung His praises' make it to the Celestial Kingdom? I think so. 1
JLHPROF Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Yes, but when did God ever say those words? We have words in the scriptures, written by men, not by God. Oh save us from that progressive nonsense. The Word of God means the Word of God. Thus saith the Lord, means the Lord saith it.
bluebell Posted May 21, 2015 Author Posted May 21, 2015 Back in High School an acquaintance of mine said he rejected the concept of "worship." I wondered what he meant, exactly, but at the time I thought he probably meant the idea of coming to church, singing hymns and suchlike. I wish I had asked him what he meant. It might have resulted in a good conversation. As has been said, God desires worshippers, but He cannot desire them for his own sake, except for the fact that it is his purpose to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And to achieve this, we must worship Him. It is because the process of worship is essential to God's purpose. Worship is service. Come to church and teach a lesson, or participate as a class member in the lesson. That's worship. Visit the widows and the sick in their affliction. That's worship. Pray privately in your own closet. Worship again. Pray publicly as the invocation at the start of a meeting. Again. I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. So everything we do, that's focused on obeying God, is worship? I'm wondering if that definition of worship works with the way the word is sometimes used in scriptures, such as when satan told Christ that he would give Him the kingdoms of the world if He would bow down and worship him? Was satan asking Christ to simply obey him, or was there something that satan wanted from Christ in the moment that constituted worship?
The Nehor Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Yes, but when did God ever say those words? We have words in the scriptures, written by men, not by God. I believe worship is important too, but I think it’s important to keep in perspective what the scriptures are, and not claim that the words of the scriptures are verbatim recordings of a God speaking in English. They often represent the views and biases of the writers and redactors and can frequently be antithetical to the actual will of God. I guess I’m just less confident that God actually wants us to worship him in order to earn salvation; I don’t think it’s a requirement.If God wants to condemn me for it he has to explain why he used idiots to convey his views. I think it more likely that God, knowing the end for the beginning, got the important stuff conveyed correctly and kept the people who would confuse their own thoughts for divine insight on vital spiritual matters to musing on message boards. 2
bluebell Posted May 21, 2015 Author Posted May 21, 2015 Our weak expressions of respect given to God are a pittance of what we will feel when God is revealed to us in all his glory, and I think we will not wonder at all why we worship Him. Just to clarify, I'm not wondering why we worship God. My question more focuses on why He commands that worship. For example, i love my mother, and that love is a natural expression of our relationship. She has never commanded that love though because there is no reason to. That love is a natural consequence. Likewise, the existence of worship and love for God is, as you said, a natural expression of a relationship with Him. It naturally develops when someone is following Him. Which makes me wonder, if that's true and if the only reason that God wants us to worship Him is because it means we have a good relationship with Him, then why does He even need to command it? Why command the existence of a feeling that develops on it's own without command? It seems kind of redundant. 1
hope_for_things Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 I wasn't joking and fail to understand your irritation.The scriptures are clear what is required to enter the Celestial Kingdom and what is required to be exalted in that kingdom. It's not silly at all to include worship (through ordinances, prayer, temple work etc) in the requirements for these. I am judging no individual. But the requirements for the Celestial Kingdom are very well spelled out and don't get adjusted for individuals.Thanks for elaborating on your position. I found it difficult to take you seriously because I don’t think the scriptures are clear about what it takes to qualify for the Celestial Kingdom, I think the scriptures are rich with all kinds of possible interpretations, but clarity is not a feature of the scriptures. I frequently hear people claim that the scriptures are clear, but they are just pontificating about how their view of scripture is the correct view. This perspective has no bearing on reality. Within and outside of the church there are as many different interpretations of scripture as there are humans existing on this great earth.
Nofear Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Which makes me wonder, if that's true and if the only reason that God wants us to worship Him is because it means we have a good relationship with Him, then why does He even need to command it? Why command the existence of a feeling that develops on it's own without command?What do you mean by worship? The rites and liturgies associated with religious activities (like swinging a smoking censer as one walks down the isle) or something different? For my part, I have a very different view of worship as a term that means external behaviors (excepting ordinances).
Gray Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Oh save us from that progressive nonsense. The Word of God means the Word of God. Thus saith the Lord, means the Lord saith it. Everyone knows that God Himself came down and wrote the Bible. 1
hope_for_things Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 If God wants to condemn me for it he has to explain why he used idiots to convey his views. I think it more likely that God, knowing the end for the beginning, got the important stuff conveyed correctly and kept the people who would confuse their own thoughts for divine insight on vital spiritual matters to musing on message boards.I fail to understand your comment about condemnation. I don’t even believe in a condemning God and I’m grateful for the wonderful concept in Mormonism of natural laws having natural consequences. I also think it’s incredibly simplistic to view the scriptures as a rule book or some kind of map or instruction book on how to live life. The scriptures are so much more than that and we can learn so by engaging in them, not viewing passages as simple instructions from God to humans, that isn’t the point. I’m not a very articulate advocate for these ideas yet, I’m still learning these concepts myself, and trying to express them is a new adventure for me. I see scriptures as opening windows of understanding into the complexities of the human condition and our interactions with deity over the Millennia. You have to dig deep and ask important questions to find nuggets of truth. I’m sure you’ve experienced that as well. I just am saying that the surface reading and proof texting that it taught in Sunday school leads us to believe in false ideas that hinder our growth and don’t help us to become more like God.
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