An Lds Perspective On War

[Stargazer]

Would you stand and fight on behalf of the State of Israel?  Are you aware that many Americans have done so?  Not all of them Jews.

 

After I read Leon Uris's books "Mila 18" and "Exodus" I felt inspired to move to Israel and join the IDF.  The fact that I was only 14 at the time kind of prevented this.  I remember that during the 1967 Six-Day War I followed the progress of the IDF as closely as I could, and had a map of Palestine where I marked the progress of the war.  I was seriously disappointed that I couldn't be there on the front lines.

 

But by the time I was old enough to actually move to Israel I was a member  of the Church and wanted to serve a mission.  So I did that instead.  It was certainly the better thing to do. 

[Stargazer]

I know. Built mostly with our money. Israel takes out money and then does not do what we tell them to do.

 

WORST CLIENT STATE EVER!

 

Actually, I do believe that our federal aid to Israel is funds for military purchases which they must then spend on what we have to sell.  I don't think we send them gobs of freebie cash like we do to Egypt and other REALLY bad client states.

 

And they are a great ally, even if you don't think so.  One really cool thing is that the US is going to be able to take advantage of the Iron Dome system which was developed by Israel -- thousands of rockets fired by Hezbollah, and virtually all of them heading towards populated area were shot down by Iron Dome.  I want one in my backyard to prevent North Korea from rocketing my house.  (That's a joke, btw, even if I am serious about Iron Dome).

[Robert F. Smith]

The modern secular nation-state of Israel has nothing in common with the ancient religious state of Israel other than the name. ..............................

.................................

Yes, but the ancient nation of Israel had nothing in common with the religious entity known as "Israel" -- at least if one is to judge by the harsh condemnation brought to bear by the prophets.

 

The other problem is that Elder Orson Hyde was quite specific in his dedicatory prayer opening Palestine to the final gathering of the Jews.  There have been ultra-Orthodox Jews who have not recognized the secular Israeli State as the official entity representing the Chosen People of God.  One may adopt such a position, but it sounds very much like the insistence of some that the settlement at Qumran was not Essene.  A difference without any meaning.

[Robert F. Smith]

After I read Leon Uris's books "Mila 18" and "Exodus" I felt inspired to move to Israel and join the IDF.  The fact that I was only 14 at the time kind of prevented this.  I remember that during the 1967 Six-Day War I followed the progress of the IDF as closely as I could, and had a map of Palestine where I marked the progress of the war.  I was seriously disappointed that I couldn't be there on the front lines.

 

But by the time I was old enough to actually move to Israel I was a member  of the Church and wanted to serve a mission.  So I did that instead.  It was certainly the better thing to do.

You are undoubtedly right to think so.  However, I was on the front lines in Israel in the Six-Day War, and it had a profound effect on my thinking about the events of the last days, and about what it means to be a Mormon.  Like many others, at mid-week of that War, I cried when it was announced on the radio that Israel had taken the Old City of Jerusalem.  I remember a secular Israeli saying to me that day, in Hebrew, "We thought there was no God.  Maybe we were wrong."

[thesometimesaint]

Men attributing their evil actions to God is nothing new.

[Stargazer]

Men attributing their evil actions to God is nothing new.

 

And what was this in answer to?

[thesometimesaint]

And what was this in answer to?

 

Post #53

 

Some Jews said God died in Auschwitz because of what man did there.

[Calm]

Post #53

 

Some Jews said God died in Auschwitz because of what man did there.

Doesn't seem to be connected at all to what Robert was saying.  Not following your reasoning here.

[thesometimesaint]

Doesn't seem to be connected at all to what Robert was saying.  Not following your reasoning here.

 

Maybe it's just my weird way of looking at things.  "I remember a secular Israeli saying to me that day, in Hebrew, "We thought there was no God.  Maybe we were wrong." But attributing things men do to God or lack of God does not prove God either way.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Here is the Catholic Perspective on War 

 

Published March 12, 2003 (8 days before the war) 

 

Pope John Paul II and top Vatican officials are unleashing a barrage of condemnations of a possible U.S. military strike on Iraq, calling it immoral, risky and a "crime against peace."

 

John Paul has insisted that war is a "defeat for humanity" and that a preventive strike against Iraq is neither legally nor morally justified.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2003/03/12/vatican-strongly-opposes-iraq-war.html

 

I am sad that my church did not release a similar statement  As for me, I was only a kid in 2003. 

Edited May 27, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Stargazer]

There were many instances in which LDS soldiers and sailors fought on both sides in WW II, and several books and articles are out about it:  See R. C. Freeman & D. A. Wright, Saints at War (American Fork, UT: Covenant Communications, 2001).  Of particular interest are the instances in which LDS soldiers were captured by other LDS soldiers.

In one of those books I read the story of one American LDS soldier who killed a German soldier, and found while he was checking the body for documents that he was also LDS. He was with another American LDS soldier when this happened, and it was the second one who reported in the book. He said that his friend was disconsolate for days over having killed a fellow Mormon. The other man had to go on a special assignment for awhile, but when he returned found that his friend was back in good spirits. Upon inquiry, his friend told him that he had been visited by the soldier he had killed, and was told that he shouldn't be downcast, that he was glad to be where he was and he had done him a favor. The first soldier wasn't sure if it had been a dream or a real visit, but he took heart over what was clearly true.

[hagoth7]

...I don't believe I have heard any statements from Church leaders discouraging LDS participation in a particular engagement , so should we conclude that , from the First Presidency and the Twelve's perspective, all fighting so far has been justified?...

I think that conclusion would be quite the stretch.

 

President Hinckley simply said we should publish peace.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2003/04/war-and-peace?lang=eng

 

The relative sparsity of comment/criticism from the brethren on any given nation's conflict may have something to do with such things as a certain article of faith.

Edited August 28, 2015 by hagoth7

[strappinglad]

Maybe it is wise for the Church to stay away from commenting on geopolitical conflicts. Poking a hornet nest rarely ends well.

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[halconero]

Whatever else the church might say about war, it definitely isn't a pacifistic religion. There are precedents in church history and Mormon-specific scripture for Ecclesiastical military force.

Edited August 29, 2015 by halconero

[Alan]

We may not be a pacifist church, but we probably should be.

War is very rarely justified and the scriptures instruct us to "denounce war and proclaim peace".

I recently spent time trying to persuade a recent RM not to join the Royal Marines. I used the BoM example by pointing out that the Nephites were only justified in taking up arms in defence of their homes, families and faith. Marines are an offensive military regiment whose remit is to take war to the enemy.

He decided to do something else.

[halconero]

It depends on what you mean by pacifism.

If you are of the absolutist bent, I would have to disagree, but I don't think that's what you're saying. I agree that the mission of the church is to denounce war and proclaim peace. It should be noted though that a more permanent peace in some instances can only be achieved through conflict. The same God who gave this revelation in one instances, is referred to as a "Man of War" in another.

D&C makes provisions and guidelines for violent retaliation against an aggressor. At the same time, I agree that we have many examples where the Lord condemns military adventurism.

[strappinglad]

There are few conflicts that America has been involved with in the last 100 years that would be justified based strictly on the D&C rules or the BoM ones. Direct attacks on American soil have been rare, on its assets world wide yes. Alliances have caused the US to go to war also, so has subterfuge . The world of the truck bomb has ,however, changed war forever.

[morgan.deane]

There are few conflicts that America has been involved with in the last 100 years that would be justified based strictly on the D&C rules or the BoM ones. Direct attacks on American soil have been rare, on its assets world wide yes. Alliances have caused the US to go to war also, so has subterfuge . The world of the truck bomb has ,however, changed war forever.

Thankfully there is a new book on the subject that discusses those supposed prohibitions on warfare.  I thought Even Unto Bloodshed by Duane Boyce was thorough, insightful, and convincing in discussing those scriptures and laying the foundation for just warfare. You should see my book review in the Interpreter any day now.  I highly recommend reading the review but also the entire book to gain a better understanding of what the scriptures do and do not prohibit. He fully addresses and articulates the web of assumptions, beliefs, and attitudes that we often bring to the conversation without even knowing it.    

[thesometimesaint]

There are times when a war has to be fought. OTOH those time are so rare war really isn't of much use.

[carbon dioxide]

We may not be a pacifist church, but we probably should be.

War is very rarely justified and the scriptures instruct us to "denounce war and proclaim peace".

I recently spent time trying to persuade a recent RM not to join the Royal Marines. I used the BoM example by pointing out that the Nephites were only justified in taking up arms in defence of their homes, families and faith. Marines are an offensive military regiment whose remit is to take war to the enemy.

He decided to do something else.

Pacifists generally don't believe in fighting regardless of the cause.  There is a time for peace and a time for war.  Sometimes war is necessary and the only option but we should only fight war as a last resort.  We should also only fight war in self defense of our lands and liberty.  We should not fight war to further a political agenda and for economic gain. We should also stay out of treaties and alliances that might get us into war.  NATO is an example of an organization we should avoid.  There is no reason that the US should go to war over a NATO country that gets attacked.  Americans are not obligated to die for our "allies" because a group of people signed an agreement decades ago.  Many of whom are now dead and we did not elect them to put our people under such commitment.  It really is hard to find a just war the US has fought after WW2.

[halconero]

Not only that but we must also consider the subset of just warfare. Most people here might consider WWII a just war, but even so there were many instances of unjust warfare in that conflict. Purposeful fire bombing for instance, the internment of certain people based on ancestry, or the conscripting of scientists accused of war crimes towards the end of the conflict.