An Lds Perspective On War

[carbon dioxide]

I wonder if people weren't so sure of an afterlife, if they might take this life more seriously. Or those religious zealots that are anxious to get to the other side for an award or even those that just get so tired in this life and the card dealt them, would it change their perspective.

I might be struck down for saying this, but if we thought this life was our only one, how different might it be? Possibly less war, or less suicide?

I take life seriously because I believe there is an afterlife.  I would not care as much about doing the right thing if I thought I was just an animal with nothing beyond death.  Overall most wars have little to do with religion but are fought over politics, economics, or land.

 

"In their recently published book, "Encyclopedia of Wars," authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod document the history of recorded warfare, and from their list of 1763 wars only 123 have been classified to involve a religious cause, accounting for less than 7 percent of all wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare. While, for example, it is estimated that approximately one to three million people were tragically killed in the Crusades, and perhaps 3,000 in the Inquisition, nearly 35 million soldiers and civilians died in the senseless, and secular, slaughter of World War 1 alone."  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-alan-lurie/is-religion-the-cause-of-_b_1400766.html

[Stargazer]

I wonder if people weren't so sure of an afterlife, if they might take this life more seriously. Or those religious zealots that are anxious to get to the other side for an award or even those that just get so tired in this life and the card dealt them, would it change their perspective.

I might be struck down for saying this, but if we thought this life was our only one, how different might it be? Possibly less war, or less suicide?

I don't think it matters. The officially atheist Soviets sent bare recruits some with and some without weapons into the meatgrinder that was Stalingrad. The Chinese communists were famous in Korea for their human wave attacks, where the leadership didn't seem to care about even the lives of their own troops. They just threw them away.

That inspires me to recall the famous song "Is that all there is?", sung famously by Peggy Lee:

 

 

Edited May 17, 2015 by Stargazer

[Robert F. Smith]

..........................................................  

....................................and perhaps 3,000 in the Inquisition, .......................................  

.............................................................  

Only 3,000 in the Inquisition?  Seems rather low.  I would estimate millions when considering the entirety of killings done by both Protestants and Roman Catholics, particularly in the Hispanic Americas.  Entire cities in Europe were slaughtered on orders of the Pope, who had to deal with large-scale heresies when he had armies in the field.  The Inquisition did not simply torture and burn people at the stake, and the killing continued quite late.  The Roman Catholic Church burned its last heretic in 1825 (when the Holy Office was finally closed), and witches were being executed by Puritans in Salem, Massachusetts, in the late 1600s (Nathaniel Hawthorne and Joseph Smith had ancestors there at that time).

[The Nehor]

I don't think it matters. The officially atheist Soviets sent bare recruits some with and some without weapons into the meatgrinder that was Stalingrad. The Chinese communists were famous in Korea for their human wave attacks, where the leadership didn't seem to care about even the lives of their own troops. They just threw them away.

That inspires me to recall the famous song "Is that all there is?", sung famously by Peggy Lee:

 

 

I wonder if people weren't so sure of an afterlife, if they might take this life more seriously. Or those religious zealots that are anxious to get to the other side for an award or even those that just get so tired in this life and the card dealt them, would it change their perspective.

I might be struck down for saying this, but if we thought this life was our only one, how different might it be? Possibly less war, or less suicide?

 

I think the willingness to die for a cause is more ingrained in age then devotion. There is a reason most suicide bombers are young males in their mid to late teens to early twenties. It is the same reason nations throughout history choose youths to be the bulk of their combat troops. In some ways this is counterintuitive. The young have the most to gain by surviving. Why do we send the young to war. They are more physically fit but are they that much more fit then a 30 or 40 year old?

 

I suspect it is youth's dissatisfaction with society, the hormone cocktail young men are dealing with that programs them with aggression, and their undeveloped understanding of mortality. I think back to my teen years and my mission and the stupid things I did that I would not do now because I understand more fully the risks. On my mission I had a gun pulled on me and was physically assaulted. Within an hour afterwards I was laughing about it. I am not sure I could do that now.

 

Throw in promises of a better world, an appeal to one's sense of sacrifice, and a healthy sense of fighting oppression and it is not hard to see young men throwing themselves into high-mortality situations and even suicide positions. I really do not think it is eternal reward that motivates them. In studies of war psychology most soldiers will claim they believe in the ideology or nation they are fighting for but on the actual battlefield their loyalty is to their comrades in arms. It is a desire to help them and to avoid shame in front of them that motivates soldiers. I suspect suicide bombers are more interested in avoiding disgrace then in some promised afterlife. That appears to have been the motivation for the other mass suicide troops we know of, the Japanese at the end of the Second World War.

[thesometimesaint]

I am pretty sure military action is dangerous whether or not you conflate it with religion.

 

True. But when you conflate the two REALLY BAD things happen.

[thesometimesaint]

At least the Conquistador's were honest. First for the Gold, then for the Glory, and lastly, if at all, for the Gospel.

[The Nehor]

True. But when you conflate the two REALLY BAD things happen.

 

I think it depends on how you combine them. The sons of Helaman were one of the few real success stories from that horrific Nephite war.

[thesometimesaint]

 Looking at all the evil religious men on white horses do. They scare me.

SEE https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KIo9dw2FhVWG8A9U8snIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBycTlydWI1BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDOA--?p=One+Tin+Soldier+Song&vid=9fe9bacf03b9d7383d7bedb11f8b7cf4&l=3%3A39&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DWN.aC2zCbcjKGlE491%252bVGhpXw%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DktpaJTn2gas&***=ONE+TIN+SOLDIER&c=7&sigr=11b0e6b9r&sigt=10fa42842&si

[The Nehor]

 Looking at all the evil religious men on white horses do. They scare me.

SEE https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KIo9dw2FhVWG8A9U8snIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBycTlydWI1BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDOA--?p=One+Tin+Soldier+Song&vid=9fe9bacf03b9d7383d7bedb11f8b7cf4&l=3%3A39&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DWN.aC2zCbcjKGlE491%252bVGhpXw%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DktpaJTn2gas&***=ONE+TIN+SOLDIER&c=7&sigr=11b0e6b9r&sigt=10fa42842&si

 

Religion is one of the great powers for evil in the world. "God will it" is one of the best ways of overcoming man's natural reluctance to kill one another. This can be done for good reasons (Nephi) and for wrong reasons (a lot of history). Trying to separate religion and warfare is an exercise in futility. Better to strengthen the side of right because those who will pervert religion in the name of blood will not stop just because someone like Nephi refuses to mingle religion and violence.

[thesometimesaint]

I'm not a pacifist. However I am very particular about the wars I get into.

[carbon dioxide]

I'm not a pacifist. However I am very particular about the wars I get into.

Same here.  If somebody is invading the USA, I am not going to wait for the government to call me.  I am rushing to the front lines.  I will not however die in some foreign land for some other country when it is the responsibility of those people to fight and die for their country. 

[strappinglad]

In the movie Patton, the general gives a speech, part of which is in this trailer. If war was just soldiers killing soldiers then that's one thing. Todays total and indiscriminate war brings out the beast. But, I suppose , such it has always been and will be. I get very depressed when I see man's inhumanity to man.

warning: language

[The Nehor]

Same here.  If somebody is invading the USA, I am not going to wait for the government to call me.  I am rushing to the front lines.  I will not however die in some foreign land for some other country when it is the responsibility of those people to fight and die for their country. 

 

I would recommend following Pahoran's advice about how to deal with an invasion:

 

10 And now, behold, we will resist wickedness even unto bloodshed. We would not shed the blood of the Lamanites if they would stay in their own land.

11 We would not shed the blood of our brethren if they would not rise up in rebellion and take the sword against us.

12 We would subject ourselves to the yoke of bondage if it were requisite with the justice of God, or if he should command us so to do.

13 But behold he doth not command us that we shall subject ourselves to our enemies, but that we should put our trust in him, and he will deliver us.

 

There is the possibility that like the people of Limhi or Alma the Elder that God will for a time give our enemies power over us for his own purposes and if so we need to accept that. It has happened before and may happen again. Follow what God commands.

[Robert F. Smith]

At least the Conquistador's were honest. First for the Gold, then for the Glory, and lastly, if at all, for the Gospel.

The interest of the Conquistadores in the Gospel was nil.  It was the priests who accompanied them who had that as their first concern, and they held the power to charge anyone with heresy and to demand that the troops enforce their wishes.

[Robert F. Smith]

Same here.  If somebody is invading the USA, I am not going to wait for the government to call me.  I am rushing to the front lines.  I will not however die in some foreign land for some other country when it is the responsibility of those people to fight and die for their country. 

Would you stand and fight on behalf of the State of Israel?  Are you aware that many Americans have done so?  Not all of them Jews.

[The Nehor]

Would you stand and fight on behalf of the State of Israel?  Are you aware that many Americans have done so?  Not all of them Jews.

Nope. I am not convinced they are worse then the Palestininans but I am also not convinced they are any better.

[Tacenda]

Today, can't remember the program, it showed the children that the Taliban has been training to be suicide bombers. They interviewed an Islam father, he said he would want himself and his family to do the same and live in paradise for doing so, according to Allah. There again is the religious thing, scary

[strappinglad]

Funny how they have such a hard time making a ' paradise '  where they live , but take no time at all making it a hell on earth.

[carbon dioxide]

Would you stand and fight on behalf of the State of Israel?  Are you aware that many Americans have done so?  Not all of them Jews.

I am an American citizen.  I am not an Israeli citizen.  No I would not fight for them and I would not expect them to fight for America if China was to invade the USA.  If Israel decides to become the 51st state of the USA, then yes. 

 

What other Americans do is their business.  

[The Nehor]

I am an American citizen.  I am not an Israeli citizen.  No I would not fight for them and I would not expect them to fight for America if China was to invade the USA.  If Israel decides to become the 51st state of the USA, then yes. 

 

What other Americans do is their business.  

 

Nah, I was hoping Scotland would declare independence, descend into chaos, beg any nation on earth to take them in, and then we would have them join us. They could become the 51st state but in return we would get to practice a little reverse colonialism and could rename them New America.

[thesometimesaint]

Would you stand and fight on behalf of the State of Israel?  Are you aware that many Americans have done so?  Not all of them Jews.

 

No I would not. Taking up arms in the service of any foreign state is not something I would do.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Would you stand and fight on behalf of the State of Israel?  Are you aware that many Americans have done so?  Not all of them Jews.

 

Many want to protect Israel because the BIble says so 

 

Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed.

 

Isaiah 60:12 - For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, [those] nations shall be utterly wasted.

 

However, there is no evidence that Israel has ever been in danger of an imminent nuclear threat. 

[thesometimesaint]

The modern secular nation-state of Israel has nothing in common with the ancient religious state of Israel other than the name. The modern state of Israel has between 60 and 400 nukes. Making it potentially country with the third most nukes. They could literally make any of their enemies glow in the dark.

[The Nehor]

The modern secular nation-state of Israel has nothing in common with the ancient religious state of Israel other than the name. The modern state of Israel has between 60 and 400 nukes. Making it potentially country with the third most nukes. They could literally make any of their enemies glow in the dark.

 

I know. Built mostly with our money. Israel takes out money and then does not do what we tell them to do.

 

WORST CLIENT STATE EVER!

[Stargazer]

The interest of the Conquistadores in the Gospel was nil.  It was the priests who accompanied them who had that as their first concern, and they held the power to charge anyone with heresy and to demand that the troops enforce their wishes.

 

I think in fairness, I do think that for the most part they were believers and did have at least some interest in spreading the Gospel.  One example was Columbus, who we recognize that he felt he was inspired to do what did as an explorer, but was reputed to have done a poor job as Governor of Hispaniola.  He might not have been a Conquistador like Pizzaro, but he was still of that ilk. 

 

But their interest in spreading the Gospel was not matched by their Christian examples to those whom they ended up conquering.  They essentially defamed Christianity to the people they "governed" and as such were worse than useless.  But at least give them small amount of credit that they are due.  It was tiny enough.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Stargazer