Ssa Questions

[Sanpitch]

I have very little interest in the church proceeding in regards to SSA people.  I haven't been active for years but I am surrounded by siblings and relatives who are active.   I can understand a feeling of prejudice, "they are not like us, they are different."  As far as church beliefs are concerned SSA do not fit in to the great gospel plan of happily  married man and women with multiple children eternally multiplying.  But my thoughts turn to what is life like for the SSA person?  If they lived as required by religious standards, as far as I know they live alone, they cannot live with the opposite sex, they probably are not supposed live with the same sex person.  They are at times discriminated against in the work place if their feelings are known.

 

I have known a male who was married with one child, but his whole life he felt like he was a woman.  The feelings so strong that he went to Cambodia and had the sex change operation, he is now an ugly woman and single.  I don't know what goes through their minds and those not afflicted do not either.  I don't have any answers, just questions.  Any thoughts?

Edited May 9, 2015 by Sanpitch

[Daniel2]

Hi, Sanpitch,

I am a former LDS gay men who has posted on these boards for over a decade.

I think you will find gay people's lives are as diverse straight people's lives are.

Recent studies show that most gay LDS men and women leave the church and finding greater happiness outside the organization than in it. Howeve, a minority choose to stay celebrate and active in the church, and some decide to enter mixed-orientation marriages, although most such marriages end divorce.

There are few different resources and organizations which center around the experience of being LDS and gay:

http://mormonsandgays.org/

http://northstarlds.org/

https://m.facebook.com/UsgaAtByu?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FUsgaAtByu

http://affirmation.org/

http://www.ldsfamilyfellowship.org/

Each of the above site offers a different facets of the LDS gay experience.

It's worth pointing out that your acquaintance who moved to another country to have gender reassignment surgery is transgender (someone who experiences gender dysphoria--an enduring sense their external gender does not reflect their internal gender), which is independent and not directly related to any individual's sexual orientation. While some may judge transgendered individuals harshly based on their physical appearance and is perceived to be a failure to exhibit traditionally-phyisical "masculine traits" or "feminine traits" after the transition to a different gender, many such individuals find a greater sense of peace after transitioning to the gender that reflects their inner identity. I cannot understand or profess to know the difficulties of growing up transgender, but my stance is to be compassionate and supportive of everyone's right to self-determination.

Resources on lds transgender issues are harder to come by, but here's a couple recent ones I found:

https://ldsgender.wordpress.com/

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/02/13/mormons_and_transgender_elder_dallin_h_oaks_says_the_lds_church_is_open.html

Do you have specific questions about same-sex attraction/homosexuality that you were interested in finding answers to?

Edited May 9, 2015 by Daniel2

[carbon dioxide]

 

I have very little interest in the church proceeding in regards to SSA people.  I haven't been active for years but I am surrounded by siblings and relatives who are active.   I can understand a feeling of prejudice, "they are not like us, they are different."  As far as church beliefs are concerned SSA do not fit in to the great gospel plan of happily  married man and women with multiple children eternally multiplying.  But my thoughts turn to what is life like for the SSA person?  If they lived as required by religious standards, as far as I know they live alone, they cannot live with the opposite sex, they probably are not supposed live with the same sex person.  They are at times discriminated against in the work place if their feelings are known.

 

I have known a male who was married with one child, but his whole life he felt like he as a woman.  The feelings so strong that he went to Cambodia and had the sex change operation, he is now an ugly woman and single.  I don't know what goes through their minds and those not afflicted do not either.  I don't have any answers, just questions.  Any thoughts?

 

All I will say on the transgender thing is that it i believe it to be a mental disorder.  They should not be shunned or made to feel evil.  Mental disorders come in many forms.  The brain is an organ in the body like any other organ and is subject to problems.  However just because someone believes they are something else does not mean they are something else.

 

I don't worry about the eternal state of those with SSA.  If a person is faithful then whatever barriers that hold them back in this life will be resolved in the spirit world and resurrection.  Some people say how can a gay person be exalted if they do not get married.  I would respond to that is how a child who dies at age 6 receive exaltation when not only have they not had a chance to marry but they are not even old enough to be baptized.  They will be exalted.  A path for exaltation exists for them in the afterlife.  My sister is 50 now. She has never been married.  She is a faithful woman.  If she dies tomorrow will she be denied exaltation because she missed an opportunity to be married?  I don't think so.

 

Just be faithful to the station that we have been placed in life.  We are not competing against other members for a spot in the eternities.  There is a spot for everyone if they are do what is right and obedient to God.  A person with SSA who remains faithful to the Lord, puts off his desires for something better will be exalted.  A heterosexual person who does not put off their desires and chooses to disobey the law of chastity and does not repent will be damned.  It is not about what you are but how one responds to it.

[Sanpitch]

Daniel2, "Do you have specific questions about same-sex attraction/homosexuality that you were interested in finding answers to?"

No just a general interest in their welfare. I think it's easy for someone who is happily married with children and a good job to not understand how the SSA feels. I am happily married to the opposite sex with kids but how does someone else go through life loving someone they cannot connect to. It makes me wonder. OK, maybe they can be headed for the Celestial Glory but that can be sixty years away, what about now?

[Daniel2]

Daniel2, "Do you have specific questions about same-sex attraction/homosexuality that you were interested in finding answers to?"

No just a general interest in their welfare. I think it's easy for someone who is happily married with children and a good job to not understand how the SSA feels. I am happily married to the opposite sex with kids but how does someone else go through life loving someone they cannot connect to. It makes me wonder. OK, maybe they can be headed for the Celestial Glory but that can be sixty years away, what about now?

Those are all good questions, and I think ones the LDS people, culture, and Faith are currently grappling with right now, and will likely continue to grapple with as gays and lesbians and our families become increasingly part of the cultural norm.

Both my husband and I were raised LDS, are RM's, married women in the temple, and had children before subsequently divorcing. We married in December of this past year (many years after our divorces), and are both much happier today, and have much more authentic relationships, especially with our children and grandchildren.

As to our welfare, the study I referred to can be found here:

http://fox13now.com/2015/04/29/usu-study-examines-psychological-impact-of-being-lgbt-and-mormon/

Another great recent development is an LDS Facebook group of Mormon moms:

https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/meet-the-mormon-mama-dragons-speaking-out-for-118381597417.html

[Sanpitch]

Thank you Daniel2, that is good info.  I haven't had a chance to go through the sites yet but you could probably answer my curiosity more than most others.

[Tacenda]

Here is a Trib Talk with the Mama Dragons.

 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Daniel2, "Do you have specific questions about same-sex attraction/homosexuality that you were interested in finding answers to?"

No just a general interest in their welfare. I think it's easy for someone who is happily married with children and a good job to not understand how the SSA feels. I am happily married to the opposite sex with kids but how does someone else go through life loving someone they cannot connect to. It makes me wonder. OK, maybe they can be headed for the Celestial Glory but that can be sixty years away, what about now?

I just thought it was funny you included that. Not sure how it fits in.

[Duncan]

All I will say on the transgender thing is that it i believe it to be a mental disorder.  They should not be shunned or made to feel evil.  Mental disorders come in many forms.  The brain is an organ in the body like any other organ and is subject to problems.  However just because someone believes they are something else does not mean they are something else.

 

I don't worry about the eternal state of those with SSA.  If a person is faithful then whatever barriers that hold them back in this life will be resolved in the spirit world and resurrection.  Some people say how can a gay person be exalted if they do not get married.  I would respond to that is how a child who dies at age 6 receive exaltation when not only have they not had a chance to marry but they are not even old enough to be baptized.  They will be exalted.  A path for exaltation exists for them in the afterlife.  My sister is 50 now. She has never been married.  She is a faithful woman.  If she dies tomorrow will she be denied exaltation because she missed an opportunity to be married?  I don't think so.

 

Just be faithful to the station that we have been placed in life.  We are not competing against other members for a spot in the eternities.  There is a spot for everyone if they are do what is right and obedient to God.  A person with SSA who remains faithful to the Lord, puts off his desires for something better will be exalted.  A heterosexual person who does not put off their desires and chooses to disobey the law of chastity and does not repent will be damned.  It is not about what you are but how one responds to it.

 

so, in the meantime the Church would excommunicate someone for having a sex change but in the next life they'll be fixed, why not let them have the sex change and forget this discipline business

[Sanpitch]

BofMLuver:  "I just thought it was funny you included that. Not sure how it fits in."   [and a good job]

 

Just my feelings of someone who has everything, beautiful family, money and everything going their way.

[Sanpitch]

Hi Tacenda, good to see you. I want to watch that video, looks interesting but it will have to be tomorrow. We're early go to beders.

[carbon dioxide]

so, in the meantime the Church would excommunicate someone for having a sex change but in the next life they'll be fixed, why not let them have the sex change and forget this discipline business

A male is a male and a female is a female.  One can't wish that away.  Its a rejection of God and ourselves and our body is a temple.  Plus it might deceive people to think they can engage in homosexual actions.  A man who thinks he is a woman and goes through the sex change procedure may think that its ok for him to have relations with a man because he is in his mind a "woman".  When in fact he still is a man and having relations with a man. Cutting off body parts, putting on body parts and getting hormone treatments does not change your gender just as me putting on a batman outfit and changing my name to Bruce Wayne does not make me Batman even if I really, really, really believe I am Batman.

Edited May 9, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Duncan]

A male is a male and a female is a female.  One can't wish that away.  Its a rejection of God and ourselves and our body is a temple.  Plus it might deceive people to think they can engage in homosexual actions.  A man who thinks he is a woman and goes through the sex change procedure may think that its ok for him to have relations with a man because he is in his mind a "woman".  When in fact he still is a man and having relations with a man. Cutting off body parts, putting on body parts and getting hormone treatments does not change your gender just as me putting on a batman outfit and changing my name to Bruce Wayne does not make me Batman even if I really, really, really believe I am Batman.

 

that's apparently what's supposed to happen in the next life, why not here?

[Calm]

I don't know about current numbers, but in the past in general sex change operations did not resolve individuals' issues of self perception and other disorders.

What if a sex change operation is not the actual solution to their difficulties, but actually compounds their problems?

Given that there are disorders where an individual feels his/her body is not his/her own, even to the point of wanting to amputate an arm or other body part, it is possible that there is another cause for feeling like one's body is the wrong sex than actually being the wrong sex.

I don't know if there will be a definite answer this occurs in this life, but there are many, many conditions that seem unreasonable to me, yet I trust in the eternities God will show why we experience such apparent contradictions.

Edited May 9, 2015 by calmoriah

[Duncan]

I don't know about current numbers, but in the past in general sex change operations did not resolve individuals' issues of self perception and other disorders.

What if a sex change operation is not the actual solution to their difficulties, but actually compounds their problems?

 

I think.............don't people have to see a psychiatrist prior to having it done and they ain't cheap! but if having it done or not done, I dunno if being exed would help the situation any, if they had it done

Edited May 9, 2015 by Duncan

[Calm]

There are different protocols for different countries. Some require living as that sex for a significant amount of time prior to havingsurgery, some including hormonal therapy.

I have not kept up with the success rate of various treatments, but last I studied it there was still a very high rate of emotional and mental disturbance including depression correlated with those having sex change operations.

Excommunication does not prevent them from being rebaptized.

Edited May 9, 2015 by calmoriah

[california boy]

There are different protocols for different countries. Some require living as that sex for a significant amount of time prior to havingsurgery, some including hormonal therapy.

I have not kept up with the success rate of various treatments, but last I studied it there was still a very high rate of emotional and mental disturbance including depression correlated with those having sex change operations.

Excommunication does not prevent them from being rebaptized.

 

Can they be rebaptized if they have transitioned from one sex to the other??  And if they can,who can they marry??  I have no idea how the church handles such situations.

[Tacenda]

Did anyone watch 20/20 with Bruce Jenner? He appeared to finally be content in his own skin. He had cross dressed as a child, which is a good indicator of his inborn tendencies. I guess the church has a problem admitting that God allows these mistakes in nature (that sounds awful), meaning are born that way and need to fix the problem.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Tacenda

[Stargazer]

 

I have very little interest in the church proceeding in regards to SSA people.  I haven't been active for years but I am surrounded by siblings and relatives who are active.   I can understand a feeling of prejudice, "they are not like us, they are different."  As far as church beliefs are concerned SSA do not fit in to the great gospel plan of happily  married man and women with multiple children eternally multiplying.  But my thoughts turn to what is life like for the SSA person?  If they lived as required by religious standards, as far as I know they live alone, they cannot live with the opposite sex, they probably are not supposed live with the same sex person.  They are at times discriminated against in the work place if their feelings are known.

 

I have known a male who was married with one child, but his whole life he felt like he was a woman.  The feelings so strong that he went to Cambodia and had the sex change operation, he is now an ugly woman and single.  I don't know what goes through their minds and those not afflicted do not either.  I don't have any answers, just questions.  Any thoughts?

 

 

A person who is genuinely one sex but feels he or she is the other sex seems, to me, to be suffering some kind of mental illness. 

 

If they are genuinely XX or XY, then I have serious doubts that it's "normal" to feel like the opposite sex.  I don't feel it necessary to condemn someone in that situation, but I'd lean towards suggesting therapy of some kind -- how effective that can be I have no idea. 

 

On the other hand, there are a variety of syndromes where XX or XY doesn't fully describe an individual.  This includes some who are intersexed to one degree or another.  E.g. hermaphroditic, or something like that.  There are genuine exceptions to the XY sex selection system -- and if you want to be amazed, you can read about it on Wikipedia, and follow the various links to related articles.

[carbon dioxide]

A person who is genuinely one sex but feels he or she is the other sex seems, to me, to be suffering some kind of mental illness. 

 

If they are genuinely XX or XY, then I have serious doubts that it's "normal" to feel like the opposite sex.  I don't feel it necessary to condemn someone in that situation, but I'd lean towards suggesting therapy of some kind -- how effective that can be I have no idea. 

 

On the other hand, there are a variety of syndromes where XX or XY doesn't fully describe an individual.  This includes some who are intersexed to one degree or another.  E.g. hermaphroditic, or something like that.  There are genuine exceptions to the XY sex selection system -- and if you want to be amazed, you can read about it on Wikipedia, and follow the various links to related articles.

I have much compassion for those who have genetic syndromes that make gender a bit ambiguous.  But I think they are a small minority of what is said to be the "transgendered" population.  Most of the stories I have read lately on the issue are not dealing with those issues but simply people who claim to "identify" with the opposite gender.  Those are not genetic issues.  I wonder how a person who has multiple personalities of both men and women would be viewed.  If they are in the personality of a male, is their gender a male and when they flip to a female personality do they become the female gender.  Are they gender shifters based on the moment they are in? 

Edited May 9, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Stargazer]

I have much compassion for those who have genetic syndromes that make gender a bit ambiguous.  But I think they are a small minority of what is said to be the "transgendered" population.  Most of the stories I have read lately on the issue are not dealing with those issues but simply people who claim to "identify" with the opposite gender.  Those are not genetic issues.  I wonder how a person who has multiple personalities of both men and women would be viewed.  If they are in the personality of a male, is their gender a male and when they flip to a female personality do they become the female gender.  Are they gender shifters based on the moment they are in? 

 

I love being a man, love being hetero, and I love women generally, as women.  But heck, women seem to have a lot more fun than guys do.  You sisters can wear some really neat clothes and go bananas with colors and patterns and act all girly and stuff, and it looks like it would be a hoot.  While being a guy can sometimes be rather boring because they want us to always act masculine.  Not to mention that my choices for Sunday clothes, for example, are incredibly limited.

 

But no way would I ever for a millisecond consider doing something along the lines of transgender. 

[Duncan]

I have much compassion for those who have genetic syndromes that make gender a bit ambiguous.  But I think they are a small minority of what is said to be the "transgendered" population.  Most of the stories I have read lately on the issue are not dealing with those issues but simply people who claim to "identify" with the opposite gender.  Those are not genetic issues.  I wonder how a person who has multiple personalities of both men and women would be viewed.  If they are in the personality of a male, is their gender a male and when they flip to a female personality do they become the female gender.  Are they gender shifters based on the moment they are in? 

 

 

My friend is a special needs teacher at a High School and she had a girl/guy who used to flip in and out of genders and they were violent and had been kicked out of other schools and they had to medicated and my friend said she almost lost her wits about her trying to deal with this person. They had a social worker but something like they had behaviour modification was the only real way to help them, didn't know the cause but could change to some extent the outcome. They were physically female but cross dressed and was all kinds of messed up. That's the issue, is why are they like that? if they were a member , what would the Church do about them?

[Storm Rider]

My friend is a special needs teacher at a High School and she had a girl/guy who used to flip in and out of genders and they were violent and had been kicked out of other schools and they had to medicated and my friend said she almost lost her wits about her trying to deal with this person. They had a social worker but something like they had behaviour modification was the only real way to help them, didn't know the cause but could change to some extent the outcome. They were physically female but cross dressed and was all kinds of messed up. That's the issue, is why are they like that? if they were a member , what would the Church do about them?

 

How does the Church treat other members/nonmembers who attend church with challenges?  I suspect the Church would deal with the challenges and support them as much as possible.

[Tacenda]

My friend is a special needs teacher at a High School and she had a girl/guy who used to flip in and out of genders and they were violent and had been kicked out of other schools and they had to medicated and my friend said she almost lost her wits about her trying to deal with this person. They had a social worker but something like they had behaviour modification was the only real way to help them, didn't know the cause but could change to some extent the outcome. They were physically female but cross dressed and was all kinds of messed up. That's the issue, is why are they like that? if they were a member , what would the Church do about them?

That sounds like multi personality disorder to me. I can't link but if you look it up it may even talk about the movie "Sybil", a true story of a woman that would switch into different personalities, male and female. The psychiatrist put her under hypnosis and each person came out, each had a name etc. And it came out that this woman was severely abused as a child. And the woman suppressed it all. Which leads me to Chastity Bono, daughter of Sony and Cher. He is now Chaz Bono, and Bruce Jenner has reportedly reached out to him during his transition. Neither of them seem to have been severly abused.

My niece is gay, she reminds me of a transgender, she looks male now. In her childhood, she had beautiful long curly hair. But from a young age would play with other boys such as army etc. But has come out gay not transgendered, so I wonder if there is a very close distinction between the two. She is a super loving individual, no one could fault her or think she wants to sin. I wouldn't be surprised if she came out as transgendered. She isn't dating that I know of. I can't imagine the pain for these individuals and their families, it's such a taboo existence, but glad it's getting better. To some the world is getting wickeder because of this acceptance, but to me it's just the opposite. And that's what I got to say about that. Wait, no it isn't! I think finally, the world is actually "loving their neighbor", a little better than in the past.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Tacenda

[Robert F. Smith]

All I will say on the transgender thing is that it i believe it to be a mental disorder.  They should not be shunned or made to feel evil.  Mental disorders come in many forms.  The brain is an organ in the body like any other organ and is subject to problems.  However just because someone believes they are something else does not mean they are something else.

............................................................  

Your comments here are representative of a common misunderstanding of the source of transgender problems, and ignore the science on the (1) hormonal basis of gender self-identification, as well as (2) physical characteristics which entail some people having mixed-gender organs at birth (hermaphroditic).  Even though such people are a very small part of the population, we need to be understanding and tolerant of the confusion and discomfort they face, which can indeed lead to mental disorders.  Gender reassignment surgery is sometimes a very effective way to deal with such problems, and the famed Bruce Jenner is now in the news seeking just such a resolution to his problem.