Ssa Questions

[Sanpitch]

Thanks everyone, I think there are a lot of good comments on the subject here.  I've discussed, or rather argued this item with my very active LDS siblings and of course their attitude is that SSA should just live the law of chastity.  That is no solution at all to me, people have feelings for someone they love and to deny that for a lifetime is not reasonable.  JWs in my family have the same beliefs as the LDS do, that everyone should just live chaste lives.

[CV75]

 

I have very little interest in the church proceeding in regards to SSA people.  I haven't been active for years but I am surrounded by siblings and relatives who are active.   I can understand a feeling of prejudice, "they are not like us, they are different."  As far as church beliefs are concerned SSA do not fit in to the great gospel plan of happily  married man and women with multiple children eternally multiplying.  But my thoughts turn to what is life like for the SSA person?  If they lived as required by religious standards, as far as I know they live alone, they cannot live with the opposite sex, they probably are not supposed live with the same sex person.  They are at times discriminated against in the work place if their feelings are known.

 

I have known a male who was married with one child, but his whole life he felt like he was a woman.  The feelings so strong that he went to Cambodia and had the sex change operation, he is now an ugly woman and single.  I don't know what goes through their minds and those not afflicted do not either.  I don't have any answers, just questions.  Any thoughts?

 

I imagine it is one of any number of very difficult crosses people bear. The Lord will definitely help everyone wait on Him, and teh world will definitely help everyone look to some other savior.

[BlueDreams]

Can they be rebaptized if they have transitioned from one sex to the other??  And if they can,who can they marry??  I have no idea how the church handles such situations.

 

They can be baptized but they cannot go to the temple.   At least this was the policy when I was on a mission teaching someone transgendered for a while. I'm not sure about policies concerning marriage partners.  Considering the statement made a while back about this and the need more knowledge from one of the apostles (I think it was Christofferson), I have no idea if this will remain the policy or what will change.

Edited May 9, 2015 by BlueDreams

[BlueDreams]

Hi, Sanpitch,

I am a former LDS gay men who has posted on these boards for over a decade.

I think you will find gay people's lives are as diverse straight people's lives are.

Recent studies show that most gay LDS men and women leave the church and finding greater happiness outside the organization than in it. Howeve, a minority choose to stay celebrate and active in the church, and some decide to enter mixed-orientation marriages, although most such marriages end divorce.

 

Daniel, I'm curious do you have the studies (or at least links to where these studies are referenced). This is the 2nd time that I've seen you mention the study about finding greater happiness outside the church and that most gay members leave. I would be interested in knowing how they obtained their sampling. As you're probably aware, the MOM studies usually have serious limitations with sampling (based on snow ball, often found with couples already in therapy, and the difficulty of finding people open enough to discuss it). But I'm wondering if there is a new study on this as well that you're referencing.

 

With luv,

BD

[Duncan]

They can be baptized but they cannot go to the temple.   At least this was the policy when I was on a mission teaching someone transgendered for a while. I'm not sure about policies concerning marriage partners.  Considering the statement made a while back about this and need more knowledge from one of the apostles (I think it was Christofferson), I have no idea if this will remain the policy or what will change.

 

 

I remember that comment as well, and it honestly kind of baffled me! I thought like, well transgendered people can't be a huge population but they do exist and I dunno, by this day and age why hasn't the Church had more to do with them dealing with people who want to be baptized or members in the Church. A RS Pres. in the YSA ward here about 2-3 years, I don't think she's trans but she wants male parts, she isn't active and is a lesbian now but why she is that way I have no idea. She was born and raised in the Church though.

[ALarson]

They can be baptized but they cannot go to the temple.   At least this was the policy when I was on a mission teaching someone transgendered for a while. I'm not sure about policies concerning marriage partners.  Considering the statement made a while back about this and the need more knowledge from one of the apostles (I think it was Christofferson), I have no idea if this will remain the policy or what will change.

Wasn't there a transgender who did go to the temple (they didn't disclose that to their leaders until later or something)?  I'm trying to remember if I read that or if I'm thinking of something else.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I love being a man, love being hetero, and I love women generally, as women.  But heck, women seem to have a lot more fun than guys do.  You sisters can wear some really neat clothes and go bananas with colors and patterns and act all girly and stuff, and it looks like it would be a hoot.  While being a guy can sometimes be rather boring because they want us to always act masculine.  Not to mention that my choices for Sunday clothes, for example, are incredibly limited.

 

But no way would I ever for a millisecond consider doing something along the lines of transgender. 

They are only limited because of some arbitrary tradition you feel compelled to live under. I wear some crazy shirt/tie color/pattern pairings (as long as one color matches) to church. My wife describes the style as "punk".

Let yourself go, be you, express your style- there is nothing feminine about that.

[BlueDreams]

I remember that comment as well, and it honestly kind of baffled me! I thought like, well transgendered people can't be a huge population but they do exist and I dunno, by this day and age why hasn't the Church had more to do with them dealing with people who want to be baptized or members in the Church. A RS Pres. in the YSA ward here about 2-3 years, I don't think she's trans but she wants male parts, she isn't active and is a lesbian now but why she is that way I have no idea. She was born and raised in the Church though.

 

I don't, kinda sounds trans to me (trans-leaning?). Transgender is a pretty broad group and there is often varying forms and methods to coping with their body dysmorphia. Many will seek out altering their bodies (through hormones, for example) without having surgery. Some will have surgery but not have full gender reassignment. Some have that as well. And being transgender does not equate to sexual identity. She may be going into the newer category of queer. I'm not surprised that the church has just now begun to try and discuss what to do with transgender populations. For one, it's a complex topic that finds a strange merge between mental disorders, anatomical/biological issues, and sociological factors. For another, it has been a hidden topic for several decades (if I had to guess, probably hidden longer than SSA/gay issues). For another it isn't that common....around 1% of the population (according to this website). With only 20% of that seeking out medical treatment for it (ie. hormones or surgery). Another site stated there's about 1 million in the US who ID as trans of some sort. That sounds like a lot...but that that's 1 million out of 300 million...so that's .3% of the population. Either way you cut it, it's a very small amount of people. Think about it, how many people do you know who are Gay or SSA (depending their prefered descriptor) and then think about how many people you know who are transgender to some degree...Personally, I can think of several people who are Gay/SSA/etc...I had lunch with 1 or 2 this week and I have several friends who would fit that category. In my life I have met exactly 1 person who I knew to be transgender (the one I mentioned) and maybe 1 or 2 more who may describe themselves as queer (giving myself the benefit of the doubt....if I have we've never had a discussion about their view on gender).   

 

With luv,

BD

[BlueDreams]

Wasn't there a transgender who did go to the temple (they didn't disclose that to their leaders until later or something)?  I'm trying to remember if I read that or if I'm thinking of something else.

 

I haven't....but I don't know every mormon on earth, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's happened. Maybe you're thinking about the cases of transgender people who weren't excommunicated for having a sex change or something to that extent?...I think that's a policy likely to change and already has in many local subsets. 

[Sanpitch]

ALarsen, yes, there was something about a transgender going through the temple quite a few years ago.  I don't remember the details but it did happen.

 

Edit to add:  Sometime I have to learn how to properly quote someone.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Sanpitch

[california boy]

They can be baptized but they cannot go to the temple. At least this was the policy when I was on a mission teaching someone transgendered for a while. I'm not sure about policies concerning marriage partners. Considering the statement made a while back about this and the need more knowledge from one of the apostles (I think it was Christofferson), I have no idea if this will remain the policy or what will change.

Thanks

[california boy]

Duplicate

Edited May 10, 2015 by california boy

[carbon dioxide]

Your comments here are representative of a common misunderstanding of the source of transgender problems, and ignore the science on the (1) hormonal basis of gender self-identification, as well as (2) physical characteristics which entail some people having mixed-gender organs at birth (hermaphroditic).  Even though such people are a very small part of the population, we need to be understanding and tolerant of the confusion and discomfort they face, which can indeed lead to mental disorders.  Gender reassignment surgery is sometimes a very effective way to deal with such problems, and the famed Bruce Jenner is now in the news seeking just such a resolution to his problem.

My comments did not ignore it.  However the things you are referring to are a minority of the cases.  What I a simply saying is just because someone thinks they are the opposite sex does not mean they are the opposite sex.  Bruce Jenner has the right to do whatever he wants.  Its his money and body but there is nothing that has been presented that I have seen that he has one of these rare genetic disorders and when he finishes he still will be a man. He can't change his gender anymore than he can change his race.

[carbon dioxide]

I love being a man, love being hetero, and I love women generally, as women.  But heck, women seem to have a lot more fun than guys do.  You sisters can wear some really neat clothes and go bananas with colors and patterns and act all girly and stuff, and it looks like it would be a hoot.  While being a guy can sometimes be rather boring because they want us to always act masculine.  Not to mention that my choices for Sunday clothes, for example, are incredibly limited.

 

But no way would I ever for a millisecond consider doing something along the lines of transgender. 

I have not worn a suit since the end of mission 20 years ago.  While I was in college I went to church dressed sometimes in all black.  I learned about the same as I did in a white shirt.  Sometimes it would be better to be a woman in some things.  But as my wife reminds me once a month, it can suck to be a woman.  I think they need to find a drug that causes all the physical pain that women get during their period and give it to men.  Especially to men who think they are a woman.  Maybe if Bruce Jenner actually felt the pains that women go through, he might decide that maybe he is not a woman.

[Tacenda]

I have not worn a suit since the end of mission 20 years ago. While I was in college I went to church dressed sometimes in all black. I learned about the same as I did in a white shirt. Sometimes it would be better to be a woman in some things. But as my wife reminds me once a month, it can suck to be a woman. I think they need to find a drug that causes all the physical pain that women get during their period and give it to men. Especially to men who think they are a woman. Maybe if Bruce Jenner actually felt the pains that women go through, he might decide that maybe he is not a woman.

Whaaa?

[Buckeye]

For a really nice article setting out how families can "agree to disagree" on SSM, may I recommend this from The Atlantic:  http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/i-choose-at-once-to-love-my-sister-and-disagree-with-her-on-gay-marriage/392279/

[Daniel2]

For a really nice article setting out how families can "agree to disagree" on SSM, may I recommend this from The Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/i-choose-at-once-to-love-my-sister-and-disagree-with-her-on-gay-marriage/392279/

Thanks for sharing this, Buckeye. I've since shared it with my own family and friends. What a great tool to help spark mutually-respectful dialogue with others we care about, but whom have differences of belief!

[Sanpitch]

Yes, a good article Daniel2.  Thank you.