Questions About Lds Heaven And Eternity With God

[Calm]

Actually, you'd end up in the Telestial (D&C 76:99-101).  Authorized baptism is part of receiving the testimony of Jesus so only LDS and those who become LDS (our Church is the same as the ancient Church) in the afterlife can possibly inherit ther Celestial opr Terrestial.

There is the official interpretation as opposed to the BC interpretation:

 

 

Celestial

“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized, … that by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit.” These are they who overcome the world by their faith. They are just and true so that the Holy Ghost can seal their blessings upon them. (See D&C 76:51–53.) Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple (see D&C 131:1–4). All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever (see D&C 76:62).

Through the work we do in temples, all people who have lived on the earth can have an equal opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances of salvation so they can inherit a place in the highest degree of celestial glory.

Terrestrial

These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father. (See D&C 76:73–79.)

Telestial

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.)

Outer Darkness

These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. (See D&C 76:28–35, 44–48.)

• • 

  According to Doctrine and Covenants 76:50–53, 62–70, what are the characteristics of a person who overcomes the world by faith and is valiant in the testimony of Jesus?

We Should Prepare Now for Judgment

• • 

  What must we do to be ready for the Final Judgment?

In reality, every day is a day of judgment. We speak, think, and act according to celestial, terrestrial, or telestial law. Our faith in Jesus Christ, as shown by our daily actions, determines which kingdom we will inherit.

We have the restored gospel of Jesus Christ in its fulness. The gospel is the law of the celestial kingdom. All the priesthood ordinances necessary for our progression have been revealed. We have entered the waters of baptism and have made a covenant to live Christlike lives. If we are faithful and keep the covenants we have made, the Lord has told us what our judgment will be. He will say unto us, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matthew 25:34).

 

Also see:  https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

Edited April 23, 2015 by calmoriah

[CCRW]

 

Heaven is the 3 Degrees of Glory, whereas Hell is Outer Darkness (for the Sons of Perdition).

 

It seemed to me that Mormon hell was only temporary and I believe the same as spirit prison.

[CCRW]

jlhprof,

 

In your diagram, what say ye, is the "Final Judgment" area actually contained in the "Premortal Existence" circle?  Is there only one veil?

[Paloma]

Hi rodheadlee,

 

I meant to reply directly to your post (while not including the bulk of what you cut and pasted) but perhaps because of the size of your post, I couldn't quote you.

 

I appreciate your looking up and sending that material.  I haven't yet had a chance to follow the link, but will do so.  I read what you'd included in your post, and it was helpful to see where the LDS theology regarding the degrees of glory and different 'kingdoms' comes from.

 

Thank you!

 

 

Edited to say I can't seem to quote any posts.  (I was going to respond to bcspace's post regarding my telestial destination with "Good to know! ...followed by a shok face and a smiley face ... I can't add emoticons at the moment either).

 

Something going on with my computer settings, I guess.  I'm not very technically literate, and don't have time today to investigate.

 

But I continue to be very interested in this topic and will continue to read responses.  I regret that I've got a full day today and won't be able to participate in this thread I started until later today or tomorrow.

 

Thanks, folks!

 

(And thanks to Cal and the others for further info and enlightenment on this subject.  It's helpful!)

Edited April 23, 2015 by Paloma

[JLHPROF]

jlhprof,

 

In your diagram, what say ye, is the "Final Judgment" area actually contained in the "Premortal Existence" circle?  Is there only one veil?

 

The diagram is the Church's seminary one, not mine.

As for your question, that's entirely possible if you are talking about location.  We do speak of returning to God's presence after all.  But if you are talking about progression, then no, the final judgement would not go in the premortal circle, one is future, the other past.

[JLHPROF]

Probably because the Book of Mormon doesnt teach that model of hheaven

 

I find it interesting that the "plan of salvation" as coined in the Book of Mormon doesnt mention the three worlds but rather only the kingdom of heaven where God is and hell which is where Satan is. So then why did the D&C go on to explain three worlds that doesnt fit the Book of Mormon plan of salvation but yet call it the same?

 

Well maybe, just maybe, the majority of the writers of the Book of Mormon were living under temporal law and didn't have as much light and knowledge concerning the fullness of the gospel as we'd like to think.  They may not have had that revelation to their society.  There's no mention of it among the OT Israelites and their Levitical order either, but Paul and the Melchezidek/Apostolic Church new of them.  Why do we think that all scriptural communities at all times had the fulness of the gospel?  It's entirely possible that the Nephites didn't know of the three degrees, or that the Jews were never commanded to live polygamy (a Melchezidek law for an Aaronic people).

 

Of course, there were brief periods in the BOM (Alma 13/3 Nephi) where more light was given.

[CCRW]

The diagram is the Church's seminary one, not mine.

should have stated the diagram you posted, sorry

As for your question, that's entirely possible if you are talking about location. 

not really location, but think if it as sets/subsets, which may or may not overlap.

We do speak of returning to God's presence after all. 

God is super set heaven, i.e. contains all sets

But if you are talking about progression, then no, the final judgement would not go in the premortal circle, one is future, the other past.

Was not referring to progression, of course it might play into the sets somehow

 

I'm actually thinking about the concept of veils.  i.e. can spirit children in the premortal see into any of the kingdoms of glory and visa verse?

 

I know, I know ... pure speculation ... but one scripture to contemplate ... sorry been to long, but the final state of this earth being an urim and thummin type of deal

 

ETA: which brings up another question, where do I go when I get booted from the Celestialized Earth which is the "location" of the Celestial Kingdom for inhabitants of this Earth ... correct?

Edited April 23, 2015 by CCRW

[Mormonmaniac]

I think I understand why you think you see a conflict. 

 

And I believe I could provide a cogent explanation that might cover all your objections.

 

But judging by your reactions up to this point, I think I would be wasting my time.

I would be most interested in your explanation. I am not nailed down to any theory, just see some problems.

[Mormonmaniac]

Well maybe, just maybe, the majority of the writers of the Book of Mormon were living under temporal law and didn't have as much light and knowledge concerning the fullness of the gospel as we'd like to think.  They may not have had that revelation to their society.  There's no mention of it among the OT Israelites and their Levitical order either, but Paul and the Melchezidek/Apostolic Church new of them.  Why do we think that all scriptural communities at all times had the fulness of the gospel?  It's entirely possible that the Nephites didn't know of the three degrees, or that the Jews were never commanded to live polygamy (a Melchezidek law for an Aaronic people).

 

Of course, there were brief periods in the BOM (Alma 13/3 Nephi) where more light was given.

Or, it could be that Christ outlined the plan of salvation well in the Book of Mormon and that within that framework the three degrees fit into it. The only objection would be that sections like 76 would have to be understood in a different light.

[igonzals]

Doesnt the Book of Mormon teach a strict binary of heaven or hell? Is the Book of Mormon not the keystone of our religion?

 

BoM, D&C, Bible all talk about heavens (plural) because man will have an inherent personal glory in direct proportion to good works santified by Holy Spirit after resurrection.

 

When you take Scripture that teaches that, you take a scripture that contains D&C 76 implicitly declared.

 

So BoM our keystone-book and our heart-book, the Bible, teaches about glories.

[Spammer]

Regarding the binary heaven/hell view of traditional (Western) Christianity, I'd like to clarify that there's a strand of Eastern Christianity (particularly characteristic of my own Eastern Orthodox tradition) that believes heaven and hell are not places, but states of the soul.  This follows from the belief that God the Holy Trinity is immaterial and spiritual; dwells outside/beyond time and space; created all things out of nothing, sustaining them in being from moment to moment; is everywhere present and fills all things, but is identified with none of them (God is distinct from His creation); and whose nature or essence is Love.  It follows, therefore, that since God is everywhere present and fills all things that there is no place separated from the presence of God.  As material beings, the next life must have 'placeness', but there won't be separate places dividing saints and sinners.  There will only be the banquet hall of the king and all will dwell there.  Both the righteous and the wicked stand eternally in God's presence.  Divine Love is is like the sun, whose rays extend and shine upon saint and sinner alike.  God bestows his love and blessings upon all.  Divine Love is experienced as heaven by the righteous and as hell by the wicked.  The wicked will therefore seek to flee from the divine Presence, though there is no where they can go in the next life where God is not. Their attempted separation is self-imposed, but so long as they continue to refuse to repent their next life will be hellish, as there will be nowhere they can hide from the presence of God.  Still, God wills their redemption and abandons no one for eternity.  Many Eastern church fathers (e.g., Clement of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa, Origen), based on their belief that the divine essence is Love, thus hoped for universal redemption.  I'm in agreement with them.    

 

C.S. Lewis had the same belief.  Check out his book The Great Divorce for his imagined description of what this view of heaven and hell as states of the soul is like.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Spammer

[Mormonmaniac]

I am curious of what you guys think of these scriptures and how it fits within section 76-

19 O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.

21 And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.

22 And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day.

23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

24 And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.

(2 Nephi 9:19-24)

[ChristKnight]

The "traditional Christianity view of heaven" is a completely binary Heaven or Hell.  If you accept Jesus as your Savior you go to Heaven, and if you don't, you go to Hell.  Heaven is endless bliss, and Hell is endless torment.  Most traditional theologies would have you believe that very few people actually make it to heaven, because the largest fraction of humanity never even heard of Christ or if they did, rejected him. 

 

While there may be traditional Christians that believe in a "completely binary Heaven or Hell", the two largest traditional Christian churches, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, do not believe in such an idea.  Catholics believe that the experience of Heaven is different for each person, and that there are "degrees" of that experience, based on their works (the Council of Florence states that in Heaven we see God as He is, but one person different than another, based on their merits).  The difference is that no matter what "degree" of Heaven a person experiences, they are all in the eternal presence of all Persons of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.    

 

Catholics believe that it is possible for those that have never heard of Christ, through no fault of their own, to be saved.  

[JLHPROF]

I am curious of what you guys think of these scriptures and how it fits within section 76-

19 O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

 

The best question about this verse is "when do the saints end up in hell?"  Or is this a recognition that the Saints receive deliverance from hell.  This clearly precedes the resurrection that occurs in the verses following.  It is referencing how the saints go to paradise until the resurrection.

20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.

21 And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.

22 And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day.

 

So the Saints who are rescued from Hell in verse 19 are then judged when resurrected.  All men are resurrected and then judged.  The verses that follow are encouraging men to repent and receive a Celestial salvation.

23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

24 And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.

(2 Nephi 9:19-24)

 

Exhorting and referring specifically to the Celestial - saved in the Kingdom of God.  Not precluding being saved in another Kingdom.  But the "must be damned" part refers to the lack of eternal increase for those who do not receive the Celestial, therefore they are stopped.

 

 

These verses do not teach a binary resurrection.

[Jeanne]

I guess normally speaking, Jesus dwells among those in the Celestial and Terrestrial Kingdom but not the Telestial.   The Holy Ghost does visit those in the Telestial.   As to whether the Father ever visits the two lower ones on rare visits I don't know.  Since neither the Father or Son can dwell in two places at the same time, I would say that they are temporary visitations perhaps like when Jesus visited the Nephites. 

How come they can't visit two places a the same time?  Separate Beings.  If my son goes to jail...(oh no)! I would visit him everyday. 

[Mormonmaniac]

These verses do not teach a binary resurrection.

The verses show a salvation into the kingdom of God or damnation to hell.

[JLHPROF]

The verses show a salvation into the kingdom of God or damnation to hell.

 

Not at all.  I broke them down for you.

[Mormonmaniac]

Not at all.  I broke them down for you.

Hum...I do not agree with your answer.

[Stargazer]

It seemed to me that Mormon hell was only temporary and I believe the same as spirit prison.

 

You may have Hell confused with the punishment that is meted out to those who refused to repent and who thus must pay for their sins in their own resurrected bodies.  The suffering of this punishment is temporary, until it is complete, yes, but afterwards (unless the person is a Son of Perdition) the person is assigned to a kingdom of glory, most likely the Telestial.

 

It is Outer Darkness which is permanent and corresponds to the Hell that most Christian denominations teach about.  Except it isn't filled with fire and demons with pitchforks.

[CCRW]

You may have Hell confused with the punishment that is meted out to those who refused to repent and who thus must pay for their sins in their own resurrected bodies. 

hmm, yes that is what I was thinking about .... I've never put together this punishment being after the resurrection ... interesting and makes sense I suppose as one would have to also bleed from every pore

[Calm]

You may have Hell confused with the punishment that is meted out to those who refused to repent and who thus must pay for their sins in their own resurrected bodies.

I would say all punishment takes place before resurrection (in that part of Spirit Prison known as Hell); the final destination, including Outer Darkness, is a lifestyle choice more or less imo.  Unlike the kingdoms of glory though, those who have chosen OD by turning their back completely on God are choosing to revel in misery and torment, not being punished for it for sins imo.

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng

 

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected.

No unclean thing can enter God's presence, so everyone must be purified of sin to enter the Presence of God to be judged and then to be assigned a kingdom of glory.

 

But just because they are clean due to have paid for their sins, does not mean they are also sanctified...which is what allows them to live again with God post resurrection.

 

The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them. The spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see D&C 138[

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

 

The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

 

 

I think much of what we are taught is symbolic possibly because actual structure may be something beyond our ability to comprehend due to our mortal understanding of time and space.  I can see us as all living together as one, but only with levels of awareness so that those of outer darkness are only aware of themselves and their own misery, those of telestial having a very self-centered viewpoint but still interact with others because it is mutually beneficial so have a minimal awareness of what is going on around them...superficial because that is all the effort they want to put into understanding others, terrestrial is where one starts caring as much for others as for oneself so they put a lot of effort into understanding and become quite aware of others on all levels but aren't quite able to let go of themselves as the center of their concerns and celestial is where all are truly one, we see as we are seen...and that means everything. Since we are one with God, we see ourselves, others, the creations around us as God sees them, with total awareness.  So the OD inhabitants may be walking down the same lanes we are, but they will only see darkness and dreariness if they can see beyond the end of their nose or feet while the celestial beings will see the universe from every direction, the perfection of each soul they encounter...everything...all from the same vantage point.  The difference is that one chose to let his eyes see and his ears hear and his heart feel and the other did not, or once did and then gave up that blessing as if it was meaningless for some reason that is probably beyond the comprehension of most humanity.

 

The label "Hell" has been applied a couple of different ways.  It is just a word and it is best to connect what it means through context than just the word itself imo.

Edited April 24, 2015 by calmoriah

[Flyonthewall]

The verses show a salvation into the kingdom of God or damnation to hell.

In my mind, the Kingdom of God includes all Kingdoms of Glory, so in a way it can be the Kingdom of God or Damnation(Outer Darkness).

[Storm Rider]

The Church's teachings on what happens after this life is one of things that I hold in awe.  It teaches that all humanity has the opportunity to enter into the Celestial Kingdom regardless of where they were born, what tribe they belonged to, or what truths they were exposed to in this life.  It teaches a universality of the Atonement that is foreign in other Christian churches.  I do understand that Vatican II introduced or at least refined some Catholic teachings so that it approaches this topic in a similar way, but it is not as complete.

 

Those individuals that have come to this earth and that will be condemned to Outer Darkness are few and far between.  There are just too few capable of rejecting God in his entirety.  

 

I never felt there was any conflict between the Book of Mormon and the Bible; the one always clarifies the other.  I find it strange when I see those who want to make a mole hill into a mountain.  

[CCRW]

Cal, Stargazer;

 

I think Stargazer and I are referring to a couple other special cases.  One for example is way way old thoughts/teachings of being Born in the Covenant, and another is one who has had their calling and election sure, but return to sin.

 

Situations that require one to "suffer even as Jesus did".

Edited April 24, 2015 by CCRW

[VideoGameJunkie]

I don't want to die anytime soon, but I can't wait for heaven and hopefully spending eternity with Heavenly Father. I can't even imagine the joy felt.