Questions About Lds Heaven And Eternity With God

[Paloma]

Several years ago now, when I had some good and fairly deep conversations with a number of different young missionaries, one of them said to me (knowing I’m passionate in my love for God), that in the LDS view of things, I can’t lose because if I become LDS I’ll end up in the Celestial kingdom with God the Father and Jesus.  But even if I don’t become LDS, I’m a good person who loves God, so I’ll likely end up in the Terrestrial kingdom.  I would still be with Jesus, but just not with Heavenly Father.

 

I can see how this made sense to him, and even represented kindness and generosity in his ‘scheme of things’. 

 

But can you understand how, to my Trinitarian view, my relationship with God is with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Eternal life without the Father would not be heaven at all! 

 

And my view of redemption (and of Jesus’ eternal role as Son of God) is that Jesus has the joy of bringing us back into relationship with the Father.  Their (Father and Son’s) joy is to live eternally with us and we saved believers with them.

 

Conversely, I’m sure there are ways that my understanding of God and salvation and eternal life are completely at odds with the beliefs and hopes of LDS believers.  For example, I can imagine that when I talk about the joyous freedom of faith and life in Christ without the need of earthly prophets and ordinances, that brings no joy to LDS folk who love and value these means of attaining salvation and exaltation (and I understand that this love is motivated by love of Christ and the belief that it's Christ who instituted and sanctions the prophets and ordinances).

 

While we don’t agree, I always think it’s so good to dialogue with and to have mutual respect for each other.

 

But to crystallize my question (and to add a couple of spinoff questions too):

 

*Is it correct LDS theology that Jesus is with those in the Terrestrial Kingdom as well as with those in the Celestial Kingdom?

 

What about the Telestial Kingdom?  Who is with them?

 

Does Heavenly Father ever visit those in the Terrestrial Kingdom?  (I think I may have heard that He visits those in the terrestrial kingdom, but doesn’t stay with them.  Which leads me to wonder if Jesus stays or visits?)

 

 I don't mean to sound flippant here as I realize that "stays or visits" may sound so, but I don't mean it that way and don't quite know how else to put it.  (I find that we can become quite awkward when talking about theological ideas that are different from our own, and yet faith ideas are so precious to us who hold them dearly.)

[carbon dioxide]

*Is it correct LDS theology that Jesus is with those in the Terrestrial Kingdom as well as with those in the Celestial Kingdom?

 

What about the Telestial Kingdom?  Who is with them?

 

Does Heavenly Father ever visit those in the Terrestrial Kingdom?  (I think I may have heard that He visits those in the terrestrial kingdom, but doesn’t stay with them.  Which leads me to wonder if Jesus stays or visits?)

 

 I don't mean to sound flippant here as I realize that "stays or visits" may sound so, but I don't mean it that way and don't quite know how else to put it.  (I find that we can become quite awkward when talking about theological ideas that are different from our own, and yet faith ideas are so precious to us who hold them dearly.)

I guess normally speaking, Jesus dwells among those in the Celestial and Terrestrial Kingdom but not the Telestial.   The Holy Ghost does visit those in the Telestial.   As to whether the Father ever visits the two lower ones on rare visits I don't know.  Since neither the Father or Son can dwell in two places at the same time, I would say that they are temporary visitations perhaps like when Jesus visited the Nephites. 

[Paloma]

I guess normally speaking, Jesus dwells among those in the Celestial and Terrestrial Kingdom but not the Telestial.   The Holy Ghost does visit those in the Telestial.   As to whether the Father ever visits the two lower ones on rare visits I don't know.  Since neither the Father or Son can dwell in two places at the same time, I would say that they are temporary visitations perhaps like when Jesus visited the Nephites. 

 

Thanks for the reply, carbon!  

 

Something completely new to me in your answer is that the Holy Spirit visits those in the Telestial.  As I was writing out my questions, it occurred to me that surely, those in the Telestial wouldn't simply be on their own.   And your response answers even my unwritten thought!

[Calm]

But can you understand how, to my Trinitarian view, my relationship with God is with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Eternal life without the Father would not be heaven at all! 

 

I think this may come from the mistaken viewpoint that many LDS have that the mainstream Christian understanding of the Trinity is modalism  and thus if Jesus is present, the Father and the Spirit are as well since they are one person, not three in that version (which is actually a heresy for many nonLDS Christians).  I have seen this stated a number of times saying the terrestial kingdom is therefore exactly what was expected by the nonLDS Christian and therefore they should be happy about it...they have the presence of God in the way they were expecting it.

 

Not every or even most probably nonLDS Christians hold to modalism so any LDS who claims this has a huge chance of being wrong for the individual they are talking to.  It is an unfortunate misunderstanding, I don't know why some seem to be so fond of it.

Edited April 22, 2015 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

I think this may come from the mistaken viewpoint that many LDS have that the mainstream Christian understanding of the Trinity is modalism  and thus if Jesus is present, the Father and the Spirit are as well since they are one person, not three in that version (which is actually a heresy for many nonLDS Christians).  I have seen this stated a number of times saying the terrestial kingdom is therefore exactly what was expected by the nonLDS Christian and therefore they should be happy about it...they have the presence of God in the way they were expecting it.

 

Not every or even most probably nonLDS Christians hold to modalism so any LDS who claims this has a huge chance of being wrong for the individual they are talking to.  It is an unfortunate misunderstanding, I don't know why some seem to be so fond of it.

 

Calmoriah I posted this in another thread but it also fits here.  One of the reasons for this misunderstanding is that they describe their belief in modalistic terms. 

[Calm]

Some do, some don't.

[Paloma]

I think this may come from the mistaken viewpoint that many LDS have that the mainstream Christian understanding of the Trinity is modalism  and thus if Jesus is present, the Father and the Spirit are as well since they are one person, not three in that version (which is actually a heresy for many nonLDS Christians).  I have seen this stated a number of times saying the terrestial kingdom is therefore exactly what was expected by the nonLDS Christian and therefore they should be happy about it...they have the presence of God in the way they were expecting it.

 

Not every or even most probably nonLDS Christians hold to modalism so any LDS who claims this has a huge chance of being wrong for the individual they are talking to.  It is an unfortunate misunderstanding, I don't know why some seem to be so fond of it.

 

Yes, I see the misunderstanding.

 

And I also see how the non-LDS view of the Trinity must seem incomprehensible ... one God, three persons.  And yet we non-LDS believers have unique relationships with each of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit while remaining true to our conviction that they are in unity as one God.

 

Calmoriah, I really appreciate your understanding of the nuances of our views, and your commitment to represent us fairly and accurately.  I always hope to do the same for LDS believers.

[Paloma]

Calmoriah I posted this in another thread but it also fits here.  One of the reasons for this misunderstanding is that they describe their belief in modalistic terms. 

 

Yes, I've observed that some of us describe the Trinity in ways that sound modalistic.  I think that some Trinitarian believers actually have this erroneous view.  Others don't actually hold a modalistic view, but you wouldn't know it from the way they've attempted to explain the Trinity.

 

And then there are probably times when LDS listeners hear shades of modalism that haven't been expressed, but may have come from a preconceived assumption about what's being said.  Having said that, I think the onus is on the one doing the explaining to communicate well and unequivocally ... something that we tend to not always do adequately (at least, that's true for me!).

 

When I talk about the Trinity, I never say "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit" (because that sounds like there are 3 Gods).  And I usually say, One God, Three Persons (because I want to avoid the misunderstanding of modalism).  But then when I talk about the different roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it can so easily sound like modalism.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Paloma

[rodheadlee]

Hi Paloma this is a cut and paste of our scripture that explains it. It is from Doctrine and Covenants 76. I will leave a link at the bottom of the page. You should read the whole section to get the full message. May I suggest a prayer to see if the Holy Spirit will bare witness to you of the truth of these things.

 

 

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

 51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, andbelieved on his name and were baptized after the mannerof his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

 52 That by keeping the commandments they might bewashed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who isordained and sealed unto this power;

 53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

 54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

 55 They are they into whose hands the Father has givenall things—

 56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

 57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

 58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sonsof God—

 59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

 60 And they shall overcome all things.

 61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let himglory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

 62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

 63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

 64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.

 65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.

 66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

 67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church ofEnoch, and of the Firstborn.

 68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

 69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his ownblood.

 70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose gloryis that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

 71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of themoon differs from the sun in the firmament.

 72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

 73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept inprison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospelunto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

 74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

 75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

 76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

 77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

 78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

 79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

 80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

 81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

 82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

 83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

 84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

 85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from thedevil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

 86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

 87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

 88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

 89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

 90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.

 91 And thus we saw the glory of the terrestrial which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion.

 92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, whichexcels in all things—where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;

 93 Before whose throne all things bow in humblereverence, and give him glory forever and ever.

 94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of theFirstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

 95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

 96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

 97 And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one.

 98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

 99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

 100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

 101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.

 102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gatheredwith the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

 103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, andadulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

 104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

 105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

 106 These are they who are cast down to hell and sufferthe wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

 107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

 108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

 109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were asinnumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

 110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

 111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

 112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but  where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng

[Mormonmaniac]

I suspect our Mormon view of heaven is a little foggy as of yet. I would not be surprised to see it come out of the fog and when properly seen it will closely resemble traditional Christianity view of heaven.

[Stargazer]

I suspect our Mormon view of heaven is a little foggy as of yet. I would not be surprised to see it come out of the fog and when properly seen it will closely resemble traditional Christianity view of heaven.

 

The "traditional Christianity view of heaven" is a completely binary Heaven or Hell.  If you accept Jesus as your Savior you go to Heaven, and if you don't, you go to Hell.  Heaven is endless bliss, and Hell is endless torment.  Most traditional theologies would have you believe that very few people actually make it to heaven, because the largest fraction of humanity never even heard of Christ or if they did, rejected him. 

 

This is completely opposite from the LDS view of heaven, where virtually all of us will be resurrected to a kingdom of Glory.  As Paul the Apostle related in 1 Cor. 15:40-42:

 

 

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 

 

Since Paul did not give the glory of the stars a name, we call it the Telestial (from the verse in DC 76 given in a post above)..

[Mormonmaniac]

The "traditional Christianity view of heaven" is a completely binary Heaven or Hell.  If you accept Jesus as your Savior you go to Heaven, and if you don't, you go to Hell.  Heaven is endless bliss, and Hell is endless torment.  Most traditional theologies would have you believe that very few people actually make it to heaven, because the largest fraction of humanity never even heard of Christ or if they did, rejected him. 

 

This is completely opposite from the LDS view of heaven, where virtually all of us will be resurrected to a kingdom of Glory.  As Paul the Apostle related in 1 Cor. 15:40-42:

 

 

Since Paul did not give the glory of the stars a name, we call it the Telestial (from the verse in DC 76 given in a post above)..

Doesnt the Book of Mormon teach a strict binary of heaven or hell? Is the Book of Mormon not the keystone of our religion?

[JLHPROF]

Doesnt the Book of Mormon teach a strict binary of heaven or hell? Is the Book of Mormon not the keystone of our religion?

 

 

It's both.

"Heaven and Hell" referring to the spirit world.

Kingdoms of Glory for the resurrection.

Never understood why this was so controversial.

 

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-resource-manual/plan-of-salvation-overview?lang=eng

Edited April 23, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Mormonmaniac]

It's both.

"Heaven and Hell" referring to the spirit world.

Kingdoms of Glory for the resurrection.

Never understood why this was so controversial.

 

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-resource-manual/plan-of-salvation-overview?lang=eng

Probably because the Book of Mormon doesnt teach that model of hheaven

[Stargazer]

Doesnt the Book of Mormon teach a strict binary of heaven or hell? Is the Book of Mormon not the keystone of our religion?

 

So, you're going to use the Book of Mormon to argue against the Doctrine and Covenants and the Bible?  OK, but it doesn't work that way.

 

First of all, what do you think is meant by "the keystone of our religion"?  It is an architectural simile, where the Book of Mormon serves the same function as the keystone of an arch.  If the Book of Mormon is false, then the Church is false.  If it is truly the word of God, then the Church is true.  It doesn't mean that all doctrine is contained in the book.

 

I endorse that which JHLPROF has just posted about the Plan of Salvation.

[Stargazer]

Probably because the Book of Mormon doesnt teach that model of hheaven

 

I'm not quite clear on why you reject well-known and long-taught LDS doctrine, just because you think the Book of Mormon doesn't teach "that model of heaven."

 

You speak of Heaven and Hell in the Book of Mormon, but what are they, according to the Book of Mormon?  They are not described.  We must therefore rely upon other sources for the details.  And just in case you missed it, Heaven is the 3 Degrees of Glory, whereas Hell is Outer Darkness (for the Sons of Perdition).

 

Do you put any credence on what the Church itself teaches?  If so, please listen to the material here:

 

http://www.mormonchannel.org/listen/series/the-mormon-channel-qa-audio/three-degrees-of-glory-episode-11

 

What the missionaries are supposed to teach investigators is found in Preach My Gospel.  The relevant lesson is Lesson 2, on the Plan of Salvation.  Here's the section on the 3 degrees of glory.  It closely corresponds to the audio I linked to above.

 

Kingdoms of Glory

During our mortal lives we make choices regarding good and evil. God rewards us according to our works and desires. Because God rewards everyone according to deeds done in the body, there are different kingdoms of glory to which we may be assigned after the Judgment. Those who have repented of their sins and received the ordinances of the gospel and kept the associated covenants will be cleansed by the Atonement of Christ. They will receive exaltation in the highest kingdom, also known as the celestial kingdom. They will live in God’s presence, become like Him, and receive a fulness of joy. They will live together for eternity with those of their family who qualify. In the scriptures this kingdom is compared to the glory or brightness of the sun.

People who do not accept the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ but live honorable lives will receive a place in the terrestrial kingdom. This kingdom is compared to the glory of the moon.

Those who continued in their sins and did not repent in this life will receive their reward in the lowest kingdom, which is called the telestial kingdom. This kingdom is compared to the glory of the stars.

Hell is not mentioned in this lesson. It must therefore be the only place that is left, which is Outer Darkness.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Stargazer

[Mormonmaniac]

So, you're going to use the Book of Mormon to argue against the Doctrine and Covenants and the Bible?  OK, but it doesn't work that way.

 

First of all, what do you think is meant by "the keystone of our religion"?  It is an architectural simile, where the Book of Mormon serves the same function as the keystone of an arch.  If the Book of Mormon is false, then the Church is false.  If it is truly the word of God, then the Church is true.  It doesn't mean that all doctrine is contained in the book.

 

I endorse that which JHLPROF has just posted about the Plan of Salvation.

I find it interesting that the "plan of salvation" as coined in the Book of Mormon doesnt mention the three worlds but rather only the kingdom of heaven where God is and hell which is where Satan is. So then why did the D&C go on to explain three worlds that doesnt fit the Book of Mormon plan of salvation but yet call it the same?

[Mormonmaniac]

I'm not quite clear on why you reject well-known and long-taught LDS doctrine, just because you think the Book of Mormon doesn't teach "that model of heaven."

 

You speak of Heaven and Hell in the Book of Mormon, but what are they, according to the Book of Mormon?  They are not described.  We must therefore rely upon other sources for the details.  And just in case you missed it, Heaven is the 3 Degrees of Glory, whereas Hell is Outer Darkness (for the Sons of Perdition).

 

Do you put any credence on what the Church itself teaches?  If so, please listen to the material here:

 

http://www.mormonchannel.org/listen/series/the-mormon-channel-qa-audio/three-degrees-of-glory-episode-11

 

What the missionaries are supposed to teach investigators is found in Preach My Gospel.  The relevant lesson is Lesson 2, on the Plan of Salvation.  Here's the section on the 3 degrees of glory.  It closely corresponds to the audio I linked to above.

 

Hell is not mentioned in this lesson. It must therefore be the only place that is left, which is Outer Darkness.

I have to say- I do not agree with the above quoted lesson material. It contradicts what the Book of Mormon teaches.

[Stargazer]

I find it interesting that the "plan of salvation" as coined in the Book of Mormon doesnt mention the three worlds but rather only the kingdom of heaven where God is and hell which is where Satan is. So then why did the D&C go on to explain three worlds that doesnt fit the Book of Mormon plan of salvation but yet call it the same?

MM, the Book of Mormon doesn't mention a lot of doctrines that the Church teaches.  What are your expectations?  That the Book of Mormon be regarded as Sola Scriptura, that if a doctrine isn't found therein that it must therefore be questionable?  The Book of Mormon was never intended to be a compendium of the entire Gospel of Jesus Christ and it doesn't contain a detailed description of the Plan of Salvation.  Why does the Lord have to put it all in that one book?  What is the point of having Joseph Smith being given DC 76 if not to elaborate upon things which had not been elaborated upon previously?

 

I really don't know what you're trying to accomplish here.

[Stargazer]

I have to say- I do not agree with the above quoted lesson material. It contradicts what the Book of Mormon teaches.

 

Well, you might have to start your own church, then.  The above quoted lesson material reflects with great clarity what was taught in 1 Cor 15 and in DC 76.  If your plan is to use the Book of Mormon to oppose both the New Testament and modern revelation, I must tell you that I don't think you have a leg to stand on.  And it does not contradict what the Book of Mormon teaches; it expands upon it.

 

Did you listen to the audio?  And what was taught by the members of the Quorum of the Twelve?  And you don't agree with them, either?

[Mormonmaniac]

MM, the Book of Mormon doesn't mention a lot of doctrines that the Church teaches.  What are your expectations?  That the Book of Mormon be regarded as Sola Scriptura, that if a doctrine isn't found therein that it must therefore be questionable?  The Book of Mormon was never intended to be a compendium of the entire Gospel of Jesus Christ and it doesn't contain a detailed description of the Plan of Salvation.  Why does the Lord have to put it all in that one book?  What is the point of having Joseph Smith being given DC 76 if not to elaborate upon things which had not been elaborated upon previously?

 

I really don't know what you're trying to accomplish here.

Just saying that our view of heaven is foggy because of the conflicts with the D&C and the Book of Mormon.

[Calm]

So do you have a more defined view from your own study?

[Mormonmaniac]

So do you have a more defined view from your own study?

I have to say that I really like the way Jesus taught about the kingdom of heaven in both the Book of Mormon and the New Testament. Its plain, its simple, and it leaves no room at all for the unrepentant to make it. Its a simple process of repentance, forgiveness, baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost, partaking of the sacrament, and following Christ from then on. If a man does this simple process he is saved from an eternal hell. If he doesnt do this simple process he cannot escape the never ending torment of hell. The D&C is too foggy and our latter day view is mucked up to the point of making the doctrine in the NT and BOM outside of the teaching of the plan of salvation.

[BCSpace]

But even if I don’t become LDS, I’m a good person who loves God, so I’ll likely end up in the Terrestrial kingdom.  I would still be with Jesus, but just not with Heavenly Father.

 

 

Actually, you'd end up in the Telestial (D&C 76:99-101).  Authorized baptism is part of receiving the testimony of Jesus so only LDS and those who become LDS (our Church is the same as the ancient Church) in the afterlife can possibly inherit ther Celestial opr Terrestial.

[Stargazer]

Just saying that our view of heaven is foggy because of the conflicts with the D&C and the Book of Mormon.

 

I think I understand why you think you see a conflict. 

 

And I believe I could provide a cogent explanation that might cover all your objections.

 

But judging by your reactions up to this point, I think I would be wasting my time.