Question On Preexistence

[Sanpitch]

In a discussion with siblings the question comes up of did we exist forever.  Some statements in church publications indicated that our intelligence existed forever.  Were we created by God at some point in time?  Is there anything solid that indicates the facts of our preexistence of is it all myth as I feel it very well could be?

[The Nehor]

Whatever we are made of has existed forever. At some point God formed us into something more.

[CCRW]

Orson Pratt wrote a series of articles where every other issue was on the pre-mortal existence, with the other one being on eternal marriage.  They were eventually bound in a book called the Seer.  It was said that intelligence and matter are fundamental elements that exist in the universe and are combined even at atomic levels with many intelligences and matter forming a spiritual child.  It was said there are finite amounts ... even though they are infinitely large pools.

 

I think it was Heber C Kimbal who was a potter himself and he spoke of those that totally fail ... Son's of perdition, where outer darkness is the dissolution of your basically 2.5 billion year old progression of a spirit back into the pools of intelligent and matter. 

 

The potters clay, if the forming pot is found to be totally hopeless, its lumped back in a ball and thrown back in the bin.

 

So yea ... kind of like Mormonism concept of reincarnation I suppose. 

 

http://jod.mrm.org/5/271

 

"I frequently talk about the clay in the hands of the potter. The Lord said to Jeremiah, “I will show you a thing that I cannot tell you. Go down to the potter's house, and I will be there, but you shall not see me; and I will make that potter mar a vessel.” Jeremiah went down to the potter's house, and the Lord showed him the very thing he had promised; for the potter undertook to make a vessel, and the clay marred in his hands, and he cut it off the wheel and threw it into the mill; “and now,” says he, “take it out again and shape it into a ball, and turn it into a vessel of honor.” He did that very thing, though it is not written. The Scriptures say that out of the same lump he made a vessel first unto dishonor, and then unto honor."

Edited April 18, 2015 by CCRW

[JAHS]

"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93:29)

 

Joseph Smith taught that the,

"mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God. . . . The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. The elements are eternal. In the translation [concerning creation] . . . the word 'created' should be 'formed,' or 'organized.' " (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)

 

If intelligence can't be created then it must have existed forever in the past somehow.

 

Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said:

"Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual." (Smith, Joseph Fielding. Progress of Man. Salt Lake City, 1936)

 

At some point in time God somehow created spirits out of these intelligences:

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth." (Moses 3)

 

There are scriptures to back up this concept so I don't think it's just myth.

[CCRW]

I've forgotten, can someone remind me of what the concept Orson proposed which BY violently opposed to ... I think he wrote a Proclamation to the World on this issue and instructed members to tear out a few pages from the Seer.  I believe it was something in the pre-mortal existence articles.

 

I think my son got off with my copy, and it was hard to obtain.

 

eta:  ah yes ... funny part is its all this metaphysics which seem to draw me.

 

http://www.mrm.org/topics/documents-speeches/proclamation-first-presidency-and-twelve-oct-21-1865-rebuke-orson-pratt

 

BY is such a jewel.  Being a lover of Orsen and a renegade I did not tear out my pages.

Edited April 18, 2015 by CCRW

[Brian 2.0]

I've forgotten, can someone remind me of what the concept Orson proposed which BY violently opposed to ... I think he wrote a Proclamation to the World on this issue and instructed members to tear out a few pages from the Seer. I believe it was something in the pre-mortal existence articles.

I think my son got off with my copy, and it was hard to obtain.

I don't have the quote but I think it was the idea that intelligences progressed in a reincarnation like way, where if the intelligences in a blade of grass fulfilled the measure of their creation then they joined with other like intelligences and formed a higher life form like a bug. Then on and on progressing toward the ultimate form of man.

I remember hearing that speculation and loving it.

[CCRW]

hmm, also of interest ... Cleon Skousen must have read some Pratt.  I mentioned this in Dan's IPod parallels thread, his talk on the Atonement.  I see a BYU professor did a rebuttal of this "Intelligence theory of the Atonement"

 

Here's a horrible transcript of the talk: http://www.scribd.com/doc/4461520/The-Meaning-of-the-Atonement#scribd

 

Here's the rebuttal http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/skousen-williams.pdf .. which I hesitate reading as I was all over Skousen's talk!

 

Like I mentioned elsewhere, It will be a sad day when the generations of oral teachings all die off.

Edited April 18, 2015 by CCRW

[JLHPROF]

What are "intelligences"?

The scriptures tell us that intelligence consists of "light" and "truth".  That's what I go with.

Light - being that spark of life/energy.

Truth - knowledge, self awareness, thought.

 

That's always been good enough for me.
And then our self aware intelligences which have always existed were placed into bodies of spirit matter. 

According to BY this was done by procreation and in the absence of another prophetic or scriptural teaching I go with that too.

 

Intelligence -> Spirit Birth -> Mortal Birth -> Immortal Birth (resurrection)

 

I see nothing to contradict this, and until further light is revealed I'll stick with it.

[CCRW]

What are "intelligences"?

The scriptures tell us that intelligence consists of "light" and "truth".  That's what I go with.

Light - being that spark of life/energy.

Truth - knowledge, self awareness, thought.

 

That's always been good enough for me.

And then our self aware intelligences which have always existed were placed into bodies of spirit matter. 

According to BY this was done by procreation and in the absence of another prophetic or scriptural teaching I go with that too.

 

Intelligence -> Spirit Birth -> Mortal Birth -> Immortal Birth (resurrection)

 

I see nothing to contradict this, and until further light is revealed I'll stick with it.

 

So what do you think of Cleon (Widstoe) theories of intelligence merged with other matter besides human, animal, plant ... how about the rocks of the earth?

[JLHPROF]

So what do you think of Cleon (Widstoe) theories of intelligence merged with other matter besides human, animal, plant ... how about the rocks of the earth?

 

Abraham 3:19 - And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

 

I think just like with spirits, not all intelligences are equal.  Intelligences that form "rocks" and intelligences that form "potential exalted Gods" are clearly not equal either.  So no, I don't think they are composed of the same intelligences interchangeable.

[CCRW]

 

I think just like with spirits, not all intelligences are equal.  Intelligences that form "rocks" and intelligences that form "potential exalted Gods" are clearly not equal either.  So no, I don't think they are composed of the same intelligences interchangeable.

 

In looking over that Proclamation to the World (nothing like global chastisement) It appears that is exactly what BY had issues with Orson over.

[Freedom]

I am of the understanding that we have always existed and that we will always exist. The problem with the debate, however, is that we do not have a clear understanding of time. From our perspective, time is linear but since God can see the past and the future, I think that time is not much different than space. There is a level of existence that we cannot comprehend and as a result, there appears to be conflicts or even contradictions. As mortals, it is impossible to describe the nature of an eternal being. 

[Storm Rider]

In a discussion with siblings the question comes up of did we exist forever.  Some statements in church publications indicated that our intelligence existed forever.  Were we created by God at some point in time?  Is there anything solid that indicates the facts of our preexistence of is it all myth as I feel it very well could be?

 

You may be assigning a different definition to the term "intelligence" than what is used in the context of this teaching.  The Church teaches that we are made of eternal matter with some degree of identity; however, this entity, this intelligence was made into a spirit child by our Father in Heaven.  We have no understanding of this process, but the Church confidently proclaims that we are his spirit children.  

 

It is these individual spirit children that inhabit these mortal bodies.  Just as spirit we gained a greater knowledge and intelligence so in this life we gain a even greater sense by the combination of the spiritual with the physical and choosing to follow the spiritual.  

 

It would be error to think of the preexistence as myth; the scriptures are clear that that we were with God before the creation of the world.  That there was war in heaven and that we were sent here on a path to Exaltation.  

[CCRW]

It is interesting that there is much more said about post mortal, and very little on pre-mortal.

 

Old speculation on my part ... there is a veil between the premortal and here (forgetfulness) as well as a veil between here and post mortal (veil of temple).  I assumed that if one were to poke their head through the veil for a moment and glimpse around that would be the later

[Brian 2.0]

I always think of intelligences as the spiritual equivalent of atoms in the physical sphere. But that's obviousky incorrect as we don't say that our bodies have always existed way long befor birth simply because the atoms that compose it existed before.

We know very litter about them but is it doctrine that intelligences have agency?

[CCRW]

We know very litter about them but is it doctrine that intelligences have agency?

 

Yes and honor God by obeying his word at this suggested atomic level.  As JLHPROF points out the levels of intelligence with some greater than others.  I've heard it said some very intelligent people have no common sense.  I suppose the same applies here, the dumber rocks have more sense to honor/obey than the smarter human

[Sanpitch]

I think it's a very confusing subject to be talking or thinking about "intelligences" or "spirits" and combining them to make a person.  It's all so unclear and I don't think there are any solid answers on the subject.

[Brian 2.0]

Confusing for sure. If intelligences have agency and multiples of them combine to form a spirit are they behaving like a hive mind now? Do I have intelligences within me that disagree with each other?

[CCRW]

I got the impression that the church has backed away from the spirit children concept

[CCRW]

Confusing for sure. If intelligences have agency and multiples of them combine to form a spirit are they behaving like a hive mind now?

I think so

Do I have intelligences within me that disagree with each other?

I had a bunch that grew into a 4" tumor and needed evicted, if there was a healer, they could have commanded them to get with the program.

There are the anologies to the "Body of Christ" type deal ... all one etc.

Edited April 18, 2015 by CCRW

[Stargazer]

hmm, also of interest ... Cleon Skousen must have read some Pratt.  I mentioned this in Dan's IPod parallels thread, his talk on the Atonement.  I see a BYU professor did a rebuttal of this "Intelligence theory of the Atonement"

 

Here's a horrible transcript of the talk: http://www.scribd.com/doc/4461520/The-Meaning-of-the-Atonement#scribd

 

Here's the rebuttal http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/skousen-williams.pdf .. which I hesitate reading as I was all over Skousen's talk!

 

Like I mentioned elsewhere, It will be a sad day when the generations of oral teachings all die off.

 

Interestingly enough, I have also been a huge proponent of Skousen's "The Real Meaning of the Atonement” because it simply makes complete sense.  I was disappointed to find that so many members just couldn't see the sense that it makes.  Oh, well.

[CCRW]

I hear you stargazer, it made perfect sense to me at the time.

[carbon dioxide]

In a discussion with siblings the question comes up of did we exist forever.  Some statements in church publications indicated that our intelligence existed forever.  Were we created by God at some point in time?  Is there anything solid that indicates the facts of our preexistence of is it all myth as I feel it very well could be?

I view is our intelligence make us who we are.  Our spirit body which is made of matter was added to our intelligence later.  That body gave us gender, form, ect.  I suppose our intelligences have no form. 

[Brian 2.0]

I got the impression that the church has backed away from the spirit children concept

How so? In what way do you mean?

[CCRW]

I don't know for sure ... you know the whole -  NO we do not believe you get your own planet, i.e. no you and your spouse/s will not have spirit childrent and then create/populate your own earth with them etc.

 

Its just so hard to stand at arms length from Adam-God concepts

Edited April 18, 2015 by CCRW