Anakin7 Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) coolrok7 He [matt16:18] is quoting the scriptues that are older than him and .....?. Yes it comes to interpetation of Holy writ. Yes Eternal life is a gift but with conditions - no once saved always saved. I have been told by Lutherans that they are not OSAS [You have hinted at this to me in the past I believe]. We show our True Worthiness by way of True Faith to accept/access/activate/True Grace to take hold of/obtain/keep/retain True Grace. True works [ergon] done in service/subjection to God The Father,God The Son Jesus Christ,God The Holy Ghost Spirit are more than a testimony but are done to walk in the light of Jesus Christ True Grace and Wash our Robes in Jesus Christ Blood.Have A Blessed day. Salvation is absolutly Free But it Costs us our very lives. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited July 27, 2015 by Anakin7
mfbukowski Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Let's just number all the arguments, and then we only have to post the numbers!Argument 423.Surrender now or I will hit you with 273! 1
Zakuska Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 See my tag line to see what Luther taught on faith and works.
coolrok7 Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 My tag line is "The just shall live by faith". I have no problem with your tag line Zak.
coolrok7 Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Anakin7, Peter is not the first pope. The statement Peter made was about Jesus, not "Revelation" as claimed by Mormons (although Jesus did say the statement Peter made was revealed to him by the Father).
Bobbieaware Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) Anakin7, Peter is not the first pope. The statement Peter made was about Jesus, not "Revelation" as claimed by Mormons (although Jesus did say the statement Peter made was revealed to him by the Father).The Bible tells us the Church of Jesus Christ is built upon the foundation of living revelators (living apostles and prophets) who receive heavenly instruction from God to guide the saints. Throughout his ministry, the Prophet Joseph Smith made it clear that by divine decree the Church of Christ must be guided by revelation; but He also made it clear that revelation cannot exist on its own, just sitting out there as a lifeless abstract principle, apart from living apostles and prophets who are divinely-authorized and empowered to RECEIVE AND DISSEMINATE that revelation. Therefore (and I'm confident the Prophet Joseph Smith would agree with me on this point), the Church of Christ is built upon the foundation of living REVELATORS -- like Peter -- not just on the PRINCIPLE or IDEA of revelation standing alone, for revelation does not actually exist until there are living revelators who have the authority and ability to receive revelation. And this important principle that the Church is built on the foundation of living revelators -- not just on the IDEA or CONCEPT of revelation standing by itself as an impotent abstract concept -- is plainly set forth by Peter himself:4 To whom (Christ) coming, as unto a living stone (ie. A Rock of Revelation), disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,5 Ye also, as lively stones, (remember, the Lord called Peter a stone?) are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2) Edited July 27, 2015 by Bobbieaware
coolrok7 Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) It's not standing by itself, it was statements made by Jesus and Peter, eventually recorded by Luke, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Peter).Your "REVELATORS"are not inspired by the Biblical Holy Spirit but by the Angel Moroni, who is identified as "an angel of light"(see 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 along with the explanatory introduction introduction piii of the D&C, copyright 1973 edition by Harold B. LEE Edited July 27, 2015 by coolrok7
Bobbieaware Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) It's not standing by itself, it was statements made by Jesus and Peter, eventually recorded by Luke, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit (Peter).Your "REVELATORS"are not inspired by the Biblical Holy Spirit but by the Angel Moroni, who is identified as "an angel of light"(see 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 along with the explanatory introduction introduction piii of the D&C, copyright 1973 edition by Harold B. LEESo your making Joseph Smith's point: Peter was moved upon by the Spirit of the Father and through that Spirit learned by revelatiom that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. And because Peter had the faith to receive that great revelation, the Savior promised Peter he would be one of the chief "living stones" (a living apostle and prophet) placed at the very foundation of the Church -- the Savior himself being the chief living cornerstone first placed at the foundation. 1) Do you deny Peter received a revelation from the Father that Jesus is the Christ?2) Do you also deny that Peter was made one of the foremost leaders of the Church, an apostle and prophet who was given possession of the keys of the kingdom of God?If you don't deny these things, then you should know these are the same things taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith.Your sensationalistic mention of Moroni is childish, willfully ignorant, and ridiculous. Edited July 28, 2015 by Bobbieaware
coolrok7 Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 The rock is Jesus, revelation is the methodology of how the information was imparted to Peter.
coolrok7 Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I quoted from the Bible and a statement of a Mormon General Authority. Not childish, just backing up my point which is quite revealing of the source of the teaching of Mormonism.
Bobbieaware Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) I quoted from the Bible and a statement of a Mormon General Authority. Not childish, just backing up my point which is quite revealing of the source of the teaching of Mormonism.The rock is Jesus, revelation is the methodology of how the information was imparted to Peter.That's right. The most important revelation -- because it's the one that gives life and correct perspective to all other revelations -- is that Jesus is the Christ. That's why the Book of Mormon bears repeated testimony that Jesus is the Christ. That's why Moroni said, "... and all things which are good cometh of Christ, otherwise men were fallen and there could no good thing come unto them." And that's why the Book of Revelation says, "The testimony (revelation from God) of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy. And it is because of Peter's professed testimony of Jesus that he was set apart by the Lord to be an apostle and prophet of God who led the Church by the Spirit of Prophecy (revelation). Edited July 28, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Bobbieaware Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I quoted from the Bible and a statement of a Mormon General Authority. Not childish, just backing up my point which is quite revealing of the source of the teaching of Mormonism.Please do me a favor and post President Lee's 1973 statement on Moroni so I can demonstrate what is assuredly your erroneous and hyperbolic thinking. Even before seeing President Lee's remarks, I'm certain your interpretation of what he had to say will prove to be another embarrassing example of an anti-Mormon trying too hard to find fault.
Anakin7 Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Bobbyieaware great responses too our Lutheran Missouri Synod critic coolrok7. He see's but he see's not, he hear's but he hears not. I see the moderatos are giving him lots of Grace to stay here with his polemical posts. We have invited him to partake of Jesus Christ's True Grace by way of True Faith that was held by the True middle Eastern Saints/Christains of old. He does not see and ignor's those [non LDS Christans] that "Biblicaly" show his Faith and church as having problems. He has OCB concerning things LDS/Mormon. But we Love him anyway. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7. Edited July 28, 2015 by Anakin7 1
coolrok7 Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 I don"t have the photocopy of the statement in front of me, it's at home and I'm at work. What I provided is not taken out of context. I just compared the two statements with each other.
Bobbieaware Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 I don"t have the photocopy of the statement in front of me, it's at home and I'm at work. What I provided is not taken out of context. I just compared the two statements with each other.Post it as soon as you're able. I'm very interested to read what President Lee had to say about Moroni and his role in the restoration of the gospel.
Flyonthewall Posted July 29, 2015 Posted July 29, 2015 My guess would be that Harold B. Lee did NOT identify Moroni as an angel of light referred to in 2 Corinthians 11,which would not realy be an angel, but a counterfeit, but as the Angel that was seen flying in the midst of heaven with the everlasting gospel to be preached to all nations, tongues and peoples as referred to in Revelation 14. There might be a little bit of angel envy going on... 1
coolrok7 Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 What I quoted in brief was from the EXPLANATORY INTRODUCTION p.iii of THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS PUBLISHED BY DESERET BOOK COMPANY SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH, U.S.A 1973: THE Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized as an institution among men on the sixth day of April, 1830. Through a period of more than six years prior to that date, Joseph Smith, the Prophet, had received at intervals Divine revelations and commandments. . . .the visitation. . .the Eternal Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ. . .took place in the early spring of 1820. In September, 1823, and at later times, Joseph Smith received visitations from Moroni, an angel of light, who revealed the resting place of the ancient record from which the Book of Mormon was afterward translated. The "an angel of light" correlates directly to 2 Corinthians 11:14 not to the Angel of Revelation (although that would be the Mormon position). My perspective on the issue you raised (I doubt that Elder Lee penned this section I quoted from) is that whoever wrote the above didn't realize that what was being stated was more directly related to what Paul wrote: 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Avatar4321 Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 Stick with what the Scripture (the Bible) teaches, I don't need links to what others say.I always find it amusing when people arguing against the Book of Mormon unknowingly provide evidence of it's prophetic nature 1
Calm Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/11-14.htmSo if Satan is disguising himself masquerading as an angel of light to deceive, then that means a real angel of light is a good thing, right?"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" Edited July 30, 2015 by calmoriah 4
Bobbieaware Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) What I quoted in brief was from the EXPLANATORY INTRODUCTION p.iii of THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS PUBLISHED BY DESERET BOOK COMPANY SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH, U.S.A 1973:The "an angel of light" correlates directly to 2 Corinthians 11:14 not to the Angel of Revelation (although that would be the Mormon position). My perspective on the issue you raised (I doubt that Elder Lee penned this section I quoted from) is that whoever wrote the above didn't realize that what was being stated was more directly related to what Paul wrote:How anticlimactic! Notice that President Lee didn't say Moroni is a devil (an evil being) who tried to deceitfully TRANSFORM his appearance into an angel of light (a holy being). He said he actually IS a real angel of light. You see, there are angels of light and then there are angels of darkness who often attempt to deceive the children of men into believing they are angels of light, but that deceit doesn't actually succeed in transforming angels of darkness into genuine angels of light. By your logic we should be wary of Christ because it is said he is a God of light. The only way you could possibly have a leg to stand on with this silliness is if Biblical beings of light are invariably always demonic beings in disguise. Edited July 30, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Flyonthewall Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. Jesus is the Light. An Angel sent from/by Jesus is an Angel of Light. Satan or any of his followers masquerading as an angel of light is still not an angel of light. Of course there were some "mainstream" Jewish people that accused Jesus of being a devil so I am not surprised that some "mainstream" Christians of today would do something similar. 3
Bobbieaware Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) What I quoted in brief was from the EXPLANATORY INTRODUCTION p.iii of THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS PUBLISHED BY DESERET BOOK COMPANY SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH, U.S.A 1973:The "an angel of light" correlates directly to 2 Corinthians 11:14 not to the Angel of Revelation (although that would be the Mormon position). My perspective on the issue you raised (I doubt that Elder Lee penned this section I quoted from) is that whoever wrote the above didn't realize that what was being stated was more directly related to what Paul wrote:The following excerpts from the Pearl of Great Price explain why President Lee said Moroni is an angel of light: 30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.and... 32 Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me. (Joseph Smith History)In the Bible, other angels also appeared as angels of light. Are we to automatically conclude they are counterfeit angels as well? 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; AND THE EARTH WAS LIGHTED BY HIS GLORY. (Revelation 18) Edited July 30, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Calm Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 So coolrok showed up at a few hours ago at 9, but had nothing to say at that time. Perhaps he got interrupted.
Bobbieaware Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 So coolrok showed up at a few hours ago at 9, but had nothing to say at that time. Perhaps he got interrupted.When someone is obsessed with finding fault with the Church, the tendency is to instantly jump on anything and everything that seems to cast the Church and its teachings in a negative light, no matter how improbable, illogical or poorly-reasoned the supposed "evidence" might be. The obsessiveness is driven by negative emotions, and negative emotions are the enemy of objective thinking. It was the blinding power of negative emotions that caused the religionist enemies of Christ to witness the miracle of the raising of Lazarus from the dead, only to willfully ignore the powerful implications of that miracle and then straightway huddle behind closed doors to plot the Savior's demise. One of the most wonderful things about our LDS teachings and theology is that they tend to free us from negative emotions toward those who do not believe as we do, because we know non-Latter-day Saints are all beloved children of God and that all of them, even those who despise us, will eventually obtain a wonderful salvation in one of the Father's many heavenly mansions of glory. I'm so very grateful for that liberating knowledge.
coolrok7 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 During the day at work I can't always respond.It's not a matter of finding fault but a matter of what is or isn't true Biblical teaching.I was initially invited to consider Joseph Smith back in the late 70's. As an "investigator" since then, to me he is not trustworthy in the claims he makes.It's also a matter of how the Mormon Church presents it's claims as well.As time allows I'll continue to get to the questions asked along with making the points of concern I have.
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