Flyonthewall Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Since the link I provided in post #1013 most likely has gone unread, I will supply a quote from it that addresses Coolrok's false accusations: We Are Saved by Grace In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace—saved by Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ’s love from Adam’s fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace or gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. Sin brings alienation from God. The more we sin, the greater the alienation and the more difficult it becomes to effectively tap the power of God, which alone is sufficient to save us from our sins. President Joseph Fielding Smith has summarized the relationship between grace and works as follows: “So Paul taught these people—who thought that they could be saved by some power that was within them, or by observing the law of Moses—he pointed out to them the fact that if it were not for the mission of Jesus Christ, if it were not for this great atoning sacrifice, they could not be redeemed. And therefore it was by the grace of God that they are saved, not by any work on their part, for they were absolutely helpless. Paul was absolutely right. “And on the other hand, James taught just as the Lord taught, just as Paul had taught in other scripture, that it is our duty, of necessity, to labor, to strive in diligence, and faith, keeping the commandments of the Lord, if we would obtain that inheritance which is promised to the faithful. … “So it is easy to understand that we must accept the mission of Jesus Christ. We must believe that it is through his grace that we are saved, that he performed for us that labor which we were unable to perform for ourselves, and did for us those things which were essential to our salvation, which were beyond our power; and also that we are under the commandment and the necessity of performing the labors that are required of us as set forth in the commandments known as the gospel of Jesus Christ.” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 2:310–11.) Thus, we can with Paul fervently exclaim that “the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Rom. 6:23). We should continue to stress the importance of obedience, of repentance, of faith, and strive with all our hearts to demonstrate good works in our lives. But we should never lose sight of the great overriding fact of the grace of God and the wholly central part it plays in our atonement and salvation. 1
coolrok7 Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 I skimmed through it and reject theMormon explanation because it adds to and taes away (twists it) from the Biblical text.
coolrok7 Posted September 30, 2015 Posted September 30, 2015 I don't misrepresent the Mormon teaching on the matter either.
Flyonthewall Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 So you continue to reject what the LDS church actually teaches and make up your own to put out there as what we believe... uh huh. The teachings very clearly state that we are saved by Grace because there is nothing we could do ourselves to bring about our own salvation. Salvation comes through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Yet you reject it because something about that teaching is twisting something in Biblical texts... hmmm. 1
Flyonthewall Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 I don't misrepresent the Mormon teaching on the matter either.You most certainly do because you reject what we actually teach and present your own false interpretation of our actual teachings... by your own words... 1
Vance Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 I skimmed through it and reject theMormon explanation because it adds to and taes away (twists it) from the Biblical text.This is rather humorous considering that Modern Protestant Evangelicals only use a tiny fraction of the New Testament (of which they mostly misinterpret) while ignoring large portions of it, especially the teaching of Jesus.
Anakin7 Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) coolrok "skimming through the mormon text and our explanation of them " ?, you ignor other "Mormon Text" that state we are saved by Jesus Christ Awesome Atonement and His Merits. You ignor The statements of Jesus/His True Apostles and Pauls words like the Greek meaning for True "Faith" that was ingrained into the very natures of His True Saint Disciples. True Salvation Is Absolutly Free But it costs you your very life. Can you be Saved without being his Disciple and following Him ?. And by the way we do not seek to be Justified by the Law of Moses [ It is not Christlike or nice to bear false witness against your neighbor]. We now keep The Law of Christ by way of the Law of True Faith written in our Hearts and Minds. May You recieve True Grace by way of True Faith. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 1, 2015 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted October 1, 2015 Posted October 1, 2015 (edited) coolrok7 also we must be worthy of Jesus Christ to come to him - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/worthy-of-Jesus.pdf We need a Broken Heart and a Contrite spirit. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 1, 2015 by Anakin7
stephenpurdy Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) It was over long ago after I watched all your videos and you refused to acknowledge that you were basing your assumptions on your faith. Not logic. Which proved that you did not watch the videos (or did not understand the simple points being made). You were not able to identify any assumptions that were made in the video. No assumptions were made. - Stephen Edited October 2, 2015 by stephenpurdy
coolrok7 Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 About bearing "false witness", Anakin 7, in my post 1022, where did I do this? I had stated, "in part" as to what I'm basing my arguments on. There is a lot more to this in laying the groundwork for establishing my points from your Church's own apologetic in its official literature.
coolrok7 Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 I happen to be where I can post in here without the limitations I have where I live in regards to the wifi I have that has the site blocked where I can't access on my computer. All the other times I'm on my phone where I don't have this blockage. A long story short I don't type much when I'm on the phone. My wife and me are at a timeshare in Solvang till Monday, a weekend getaway we do every once in awhile. I'll be able to give more references to back up my points.
coolrok7 Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 The following excerpts are from the Feb. 2006 Ensign in an article concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls (Mormons I believe have sided with the wrong group): There was great excitement when, in 1947, Bedouin shepherds discovered the first Dead Sea Scrolls preserved in large clay jars in Cave 1 at Qumran. Ten jars were ultimately found, but only two yielded documents. One contained three scrolls, . . .These three were later identified as a copy of the biblical book of Isaiah; a copy of the Rule of the Community, sometimes called the Manual of Discipline. . . and a commentary on the biblical book of Habakkuk.Four additional scrolls were later found in the cave; . . .Hymn Scroll; a partially preserved copy of Isaiah; the War Scroll. . .and a collection of Genesis-type narratives called the Genisis Apocryphon. . . .The idea of RestorationAnother reason for Latter-day Saint interest in the Dead Sea Scrolls community is the theme of apostasy and restoration found among both groups. The scrolls indicate that the Qumran sectarians regarded themselves as the true Israel surrounded by spiritual traitors and false brethren in a corrupt world. They possessed the true covenant that God had restored or renewed with them. They went off by themselves to establish the “Community of the Renewed Covenant”. . . and to await the advent of two messiahs [*](a priestly Anointed One and a Davidic or political Anointed One) in desert country right next to a vast salt lake fed by a freshwater stream called the Jordan River. No wonder Latter-day Saints are interested in the documents of a people whose circumstances and geographical habitation parallel their own history. . . .They continue to provide insights into the nature of the extinct community at Qumran. . . .However, with the exception of the copies of biblical books, there is no evidence to suggest the scrolls ought to be regarded in the same category as the standard works. . . .The scrolls have given to the world the oldest biblical manuscripts yet discovered, and they help us to understand the history of our modern version of the Bible.” [*Jesus was at the same time the priestly and Davidic “Anointed One”– He also was the prophet that was to come, “like unto Moses”- Jesus at the same time was: Prophet/Priest/King. Something not allowed in the Old Testament]
Anakin7 Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Hearing but hearing not, seeing and seeing not. Off to work. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Maybe its not safe to go to work then if you can't see or hear. . .
coolrok7 Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Jesus Himself selected the apostles, not the Qumran community, to be the bearers of His message of the good news of salvation to those who accept Him as the Messiah of Israel. While they can confirm certain Biblical teachings, it is not the Qumran community we are to look to for our doctrine. Both Jesus and the apostles appealed to “it is written” as the basis for establishing the truth claims of the word of God. My motivation in light of God’s Word is to avoid being contentious (different from contending) and to speak the truth in love. The following are my guidelines in the pursuit of that truth, “it is written” and Jude’s admonition: But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” (Matthew 4:4) Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once delivered to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jude vs. 3, 4) Mormon so-called "Scripture" doesn't necessarily qualify to be on par with Biblical Scripture, especially when it is at odds with/contradictory at critical points (in which I will demonstrate).
pogi Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Mormon so-called "Scripture" doesn't necessarily qualify to be on par with Biblical Scripture Is it not "written" that "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God"? Just sayin' 3
Lachoneus Posted October 2, 2015 Posted October 2, 2015 Mormon so-called "Scripture" doesn't necessarily qualify to be on par with Biblical Scripture, especially when it is at odds with/contradictory at critical points (in which I will demonstrate). Your personal opinion as to what does and does not qualify as scripture is meaningless (2 Peter 1:20). It is the Holy Ghost who establishes what is and is not not scripture (2 Peter 1:21). The same goes for what you choose to call being "at odds with/contradictory at critical points;" your opinion is entirely meaningless. The Holy Ghost has already confirmed that the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are all scripture. Nothing you propose to "demonstrate" can prove anything to the contrary. 3
Anakin7 Posted October 3, 2015 Posted October 3, 2015 coolrok7 thank you for your unchristlike/biblical comment in your post # 1039 it reminds me why I am not a evangelical christian [Dressed up as one] barking/howling at LDS why they are on the road to the abyss. Reminder your faith/church [Lutheran] front/back yard and inside the House is shown by some non LDS christian individuals to be heretical/non christian. Works [ Those Born out of True Love and True Faith to Jesus Christ] are neccessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation [True Grace does that] for Faith [ True Faith - pistis ] alone gives Life [ To True Grace - charis] - quote from Martin Luther [ My comments in bracetts]. Martin Luther stated that the greatist work was "Faith". In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted October 3, 2015 Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) coolrok believing in Jesus is The same as obeying Him - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 3, 2015 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted October 3, 2015 Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) coolrok - scriptures God wants you to know about - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternallife.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 3, 2015 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted October 3, 2015 Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) coolrok One must be Worthy of Jesus and Eternal Life according to scripture - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/worthy-of-Jesus.pdf In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 3, 2015 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted October 3, 2015 Posted October 3, 2015 And coolrok7 our True Salvation Soteriology Form/Model is not personal self rightious works employer/employee based but a True Love/Faith/Covenant of Obediece, Like that of a client/patron. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted October 3, 2015 Posted October 3, 2015 Anakin 7. It was directed at me what you stated, I was tongue in cheek using the same back on you. Can't take a little humor or do you not like in kind what you said to me?
coolrok7 Posted October 3, 2015 Posted October 3, 2015 The twisting of Scripture, according to Peter in reference to Paul's writings, begins in The Book of Mormon, the product of Joseph Smith (his own spoken words which were written down, purportedly read from letters of light from a stone in a hat; which is not the norm for translating from one language to another as attempted to be shown previously in their publications used for proselytizing as contrasted with recently released pictures of this stone by the Mormon Church in The Ensign Church magazine): . . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon) Joseph’s rejection of the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith continues on to this day. In doing so Joseph arrived at a conclusion not in accordance with the counsel of Biblical Scripture: But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.(2 Timothy 3:13-17) He and his successors/followers have opted for “another gospel” based on a system of works (which culminates in non-Biblical temple ritual). The Bible is in direct opposition to that system as expressed by the apostle Paul: What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 9:30-10:4) nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16) You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4) More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, (Phillipians 3:eight) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches, in a proselytizing pamphlet, “You May Earn Salvation [actually “exaltation”] through Christ” (“Salvation” in the Biblical context is modified/redefined by the phrase: “after all we can do” in the BOM): You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4) By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10) This idea of earning exaltation is reflected in these following statements by an Mormon apostle/BYU professor: Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23) It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice. . .This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. . . .(AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. . .GRACE WORKS, Robert L. Millet, p.18) The Mormon redefinition of salvation, as contrasted with what the Bible has to say concerning grace, goes directly against the following: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. (Titus 3:4-eight) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10) I have never stated that Mormons don't teach/mention salvation is by grace but based on the above, is not really what is meant as contrasted with the biblical teaching of "not of works" but a clever counterfeit where it is a given in one statement and then denied in the next.
Flyonthewall Posted October 3, 2015 Posted October 3, 2015 Since you insist on keeping your head in a hole in the sand about our teachings, what is it you think "After all we can do" means? Please interpret Matthew 7:21 for us. Here is the passage: 21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.To me, this is exactly what "after all we can do" means. Doing the will of the Father. To put this scripture further into context, I invite you to read the rest of the chapter 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled. 25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments. 26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. 27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away. 28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law. 29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. 30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses. More clarification on this topic is given in Mosiah 13... but of course you have no interest in what the LDS church actually teaches as that would interfere with your personal crusade to tear our teachings down. Ignorance is indeed bliss. So you go right on saying "Lord, Lord" and we will keep on doing the will of the Father. 2
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