BlahBlahBlah Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 He had no sin to forsake. If we are perfected in Christ then we are without spot. Yes, but what is "required" prior to one being perfected in Christ? Moroni 10: 32Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; Yes, grace perfects us in Christ. but it appers only if one has already perfected himself, by denying himself of ALL ungodliness. We are not without spot until then. This is the "if/then" statement I referred to earlier. "If" you deny yourself of all ungodliness, "then" is grace sufficient to prefect you in Christ. Isn't this saying that grace doesn't apply until you have already forsaken ALL of your sin? I don't know about you but that's impossible for me.That is not what they say. Grace is not an all or nothing proposition. Some will receive a little grace, some will receive a lot of grace. The fullness of the Grace of Christ provides perfection. Not everyone will be perfected. Only those that have forsaken all sin. It appears then that we agree that repentance (total forsaking of ALL sin) is required PRIOR to grace being applied... after ALL you can do. All sins of commission and ommission. Not to sound pius, sarcastic or arrogant, but to make a point, did you do ALL that you could do yesterday? I'm sure you prayed this morning. Probably 5 or 10 minutes? Could you have goitten up a little earlier and prayed perhaps 10 or 15? Did you really do ALL that you can do? We don't believe we will be perfected in this life, that may come in the next life. The key is what type of person we become in this life. Are we faithful? humble? teachable? loving? charitable? obedient? Repentant? We don't magically change at death to a different type of person. We will be judged by our works, by what we did here. Are you sure of that? Alma 34: 34,3534Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...October 1977 The Blessings of Righteous Obedience Delbert L. Stapleyhttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/10/the-blessings-of-righteous-obedience?lang=engWe must recognize that mortality has been granted to us as a probationary state where all physical appetites are to be mastered. It is far more difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins which involve physical habits and actions. The words of Amulek in the Book of Mormon give emphasis to this principle: “Behold,” he said, “now is the time and the day of your salvation. …“This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. …“If we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …“That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:31–34.) It is obvious we either discipline our lives here, or pay the price for the undisciplined life in the world to come. What we LDS mean by "exaltation" is not the same thing that mainstream Christianity means by "savlation". Exaltation is so much more.We believe what Jesus said when He stated: "In my Father’s house are many mansions"... I understand. Let's just say that I have a fairly good workihg knowledge of the differrences between Orthodox Christianity and the LDS faith. But I don't think I know it all. The purpose of my questions are to further understand the differences. My understanding now leads me to conclude that exaltation requires a total abaondment of sin in this life, which is pretty much impossible, for me anyway, and the Book of Mormon as well as LDS Presidents, Apostles and Elders teach that we must and can do just that.April 1986 The Call Of Duty Thomas S. Monsonhttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/1986/04/the-call-of-duty?lang=eng“And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.” (1 Ne. 3:1–7.)When that same call comes to you and to me, what will be our response? Will we murmur, as did Laman and Lemuel, and say, “This is a hard thing required of us”? Or will we, with Nephi, individually declare, “I will go. I will do”?April 1994 "Live In Obedience" Joseph B. Wirthlinhttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/1994/04/live-in-obedience?lang=engThe Lord has admonished all of us to “keep [His] commandments and endure to the end.” 13No doubt, you young men have learned that obedience is not always easy. In fact, it can sometimes seem stifling, uncomfortable, or even impossible. “But with God all things are possible.” 14 You can be obedient. You can defeat Satan and overcome temptation. God “will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” 15 The Lord does not expect anything of you that you cannot do. Remember Nephi’s faith when he testified that “the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.” 16
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Regarding Filthy Rags BlahBlahBlah I suggest you not quote Isaiah 64:6 anymore. Letting you know out of Love. May True Grace be with you. http://www.14lds.com/rags.htm http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/filtyrags.htm http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FILTHY.TXT http://www.inplainsite.org/html/filthy_rags.html http://www.eternallifeblog.com/out-of-context.scriptures/ In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Hi Anakin. All of your links refer to LDS biased sources, and my Christian "seer stone" (the Bible) affords me a different perspective from which to discern. The context of Is 64:6 refers specifically to the Israelites in Isaiah’s time (760—670 B.C.) who had strayed from God. Isaiah was writing concerning Isreal's hypocrisy. Yet he includes himself in the description, saying “we” and “our.” Isaiah was redeemed and set apart as a prophet of God, yet he saw himself as part of a group that was utterly sinful. The doctrine of total depravity is taught clearly elsewhere in Scripture (e.g., Ephesians 2:1–5), and the illustration of Isaiah 64:6 could rightly be applied to the whole world, especially given Isaiah's inclusion of himself in the description. Consequently, I refuse to rip this passage out of my Bible. You may do with your Scriptures as you please.
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Tends to be much easier to attack others' worship and fellowship habits when protecting one's own by hiding them. Hi Calm It's a bit mean spirited, in my opinion, to jump the shark and assume my intentions are less than honorable. You're the second person to bring my character into question before you've even had a chance to dialogue with me. It seems as though, simply because I admit that I'm an Evangelical Christian, everyone assumes I'm just going to be a jerk. But get a chance to know me. I love Mormons, I have close relatives who are Mormons and I think I can offer a bit of stimulating conversation to the board without disparaging individuals, or the LDS faith. So I'm just trying to follow the board guidelines by remaining vague concerning my personal info. Maybe you should read them too? http://www.mormondialogue.org/index.php?app=forums&module=extras§ion=boardrules Your Personal ResponsibilityExercise good judgment. Don't give out too much personal information about yourself and don't assume you know anyone well enough on this message board to do so. Any reasonable person will understand if you don't want to provide more details about yourself than you are comfortable with. You're a reasonable person, right?
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 I don't have a lot of time right now, but I would like to welcome you. Be warned though, if you are a typical Evangelical Christian, you are here to tell us what we believe, to quote some of our own scriptures to us, interpreting them in your own way, usually out of context. You will assume (erroneously) that your interpretation of Biblical scripture is the only reasonable one. You will be oblivious to your own preconceptions that you are reading into scripture. And so forth. And it is quite possible that you recently graduated from some anti-Mormon seminar. So, we will see if you are the "typical Evangelical Christian". Just to catch you up to speed in this thread. We have already demonstrated that the Evangelical definition of Grace is in error. So don't start out thinking that you have everything right with your own doctrine. Hello Vance So that there is no misunderstanding on my part, you want me to realize that I'm already wrong about arguments I haven't made yet, and I am not to challenge any of your beliefs with my bogus and bigoted "anti-Mormon" Christian doctrines, because my interpretations are no doubt nothing but the erroneous misconceptions of the typically ignorant Evangelical Christian who has no clue when it comes to Christian doctrines. Thanks for the welcome
Calm Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Hi Calm It's a bit mean spirited, in my opinion, to jump the shark and assume my intentions are less than honorable.. Never said or assumed your intentions weren't honourable. Why are you assuming I did?Personal info in the guidelines is about identity info. If your beliefs are so unique that someone could track you down through them ,by all means don't post them.
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Never said or assumed your intentions weren't honourable. Why are you assuming I did?Personal info in the guidelines is about identity info. If your beliefs are so unique that someone could track you down through them ,by all means don't post them. Hello Calm Because you said: "Tends to be much easier to attack others' worship and fellowship habits when protecting one's own by hiding them." Should I suppose that was said in "love" like the others who have chastized me and then said it was done out of love? I haven't attacked anyone or anything here. I've posted LDS Scriptures and talks that explain those Scriptures and I have asked if they were really saying what they seem to be saying, because if they are, that's not such a good thing. Rather than tell me yes or no and discuss why, I've been warned that I better tow the mark here or I'll get booted. I seem to be spending more time than anything just defending against attacks on my honor based on what people think I "might" do. There seems to be a lot of paranoia here. Is everyone here so insecure in your beliefs that you are worried someone might challenge them beyond your ability to defend? It appears so. I haven't done anyting other than post LDS Scriptures and talks and asked for clarity. Rather than actually addressing the issues I've brought here for discussion, everyone thinks it's their duty to inform the ignorant Christian that you already know everything there is to know and I should just go hide in a corner somewhere and pay attantion while the scholars here have a real debate. Good grief! I haven't attacked anyone's worship and fellowship habits, and why should you give a hoot what mine are anyway? Why not focus on the topic rather than my character? If you don't have anything to offer for discussion other than critiques of my person, then please find someone else to badger.
Bobbieaware Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Hi Anakin. All of your links refer to LDS biased sources, and my Christian "seer stone" (the Bible) affords me a different perspective from which to discern. The context of Is 64:6 refers specifically to the Israelites in Isaiah’s time (760—670 B.C.) who had strayed from God. Isaiah was writing concerning Isreal's hypocrisy. Yet he includes himself in the description, saying “we” and “our.” Isaiah was redeemed and set apart as a prophet of God, yet he saw himself as part of a group that was utterly sinful. The doctrine of total depravity is taught clearly elsewhere in Scripture (e.g., Ephesians 2:1–5), and the illustration of Isaiah 64:6 could rightly be applied to the whole world, especially given Isaiah's inclusion of himself in the description. Consequently, I refuse to rip this passage out of my Bible. You may do with your Scriptures as you please.The Book of Mormon prophet Jacob (brother of Nephi) taught a doctrine very similar to the total depravity man in 2 Nephi 9: 8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more. 9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness. 10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.(2 Mephi 9)
Calm Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) I don't sign my posts "in love" for a reason.I am a longtime poster with a relatively consistent way of posting. Before taking too much offense, you should consider why I might be saying what I did."There seems to be a lot of paranoia here"Not on my part. I dealt with only what you said yourself, not assumptions, projections, etc. You refused to share information that you know about LDS posters by their being open about their faith. Your choice, but it does make conversation more difficult because only half are being transparent about their faith.If LDS were afraid they couldn't defend their faith, why would they be posting on a message board for years encountering numerous individuals challenging them?Pretty simple. Edited October 10, 2015 by Calm 1
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 I don't sign my posts "in love" for a reason.I am a longtime poster with a relatively consistent way of posting. Before taking too much offense, you should consider why I might be saying what I did."There seems to be a lot of paranoia here"Not on my part. I dealt with only what you said yourself, not assumptions, projections, etc. You refused to share information that you know about LDS posters by their being open about their faith. Your choice, but it does make conversation more difficult because only half are being transparent about their faith.If LDS were afraid they couldn't defend their faith, why would they be posting on a message board for years encountering numerous individuals challenging them?Pretty simple. Well, you can take your hateful attitude and your jocularity somewhere else, if you don't mind. Don't bother responding to me again unless you're prepared to treat me with the dignity and respect that I deserve. I don't care who you think you are or how many posts you have. That's nothing to me. So if you're not challenged beyond your ability to defend your beliefs, then why don't you defend them rather than attempting to change the focus to disparaging my character instead? This isn't my first rodeo either, cowboy, and that ploy only tells me you don't really have any valid answsers.
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 The Book of Mormon prophet Jacob (brother of Nephi) taught a doctrine very similar to the total depravity man in 2 Nephi 9:8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body, and also the death of the spirit.(2 Mephi 9)Hello Bobbieaware. Thanks for the quote. It's my understanding that Jesus' sacrifice raises me from the dead, and this is called being perfected in Christ, but only if I have worked to overcome all of my own sins and done ALL I can do while in this life. Then grace is sufficient and I am worthy of eternal life. Right? I'm trying to find out if anyone here knows anyone who has actually achieved true repentence by forsaking all of their sins, all the time, never repeating any sin, denying themself of ALL ungodliness, and then doing ALL you can do. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1972/04/salvation-and-exaltation?lang=eng&media=videoJuly 1972Salvation and ExaltationElder Theodore M. BurtonAssistant to the Council of the TwelveExaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to pass. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. So exaltation is a gift from God, but I still have to pay for it? By becoming sinless and denying myself of all ungodliness. Correct?
Anakin7 Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 BlahBlahBlau just have a few brief moments to post as to your claim that "all your links refer to LDS biased sources" really ?, only 2 of the 5 [ I could have provided a # of others from non LDS Christians who state the same as the 3 "non LDS links" and agree with the LDS ones I posted who all come to a different view than you] were from LDS. Even thpugh the 2 were from LDS does that make them not credible ?, Ad hominem is it not ?. And no I or any LDS have and will not rip that out of our Bible. Why would you make such a claim ?. We are fallen yes totaly depraved ?, sounds very Calvinistic. Do you adhere to Calvinism ?. Must go will be busy next 2-3 days. Salvation Is In Jesus Christ The Person In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 BlahBlahBlau just have a few brief moments to post as to your claim that "all your links refer to LDS biased sources" really ?, only 2 of the 5 [ I could have provided a # of others from non LDS Christians who state the same as the 3 "non LDS links" and agree with the LDS ones I posted who all come to a different view than you] were from LDS. Even thpugh the 2 were from LDS does that make them not credible ?, Ad hominem is it not ?. And no I or any LDS have and will not rip that out of our Bible. Why would you make such a claim ?. We are fallen yes totaly depraved ?, sounds very Calvinistic. Do you adhere to Calvinism ?. Must go will be busy next 2-3 days. Salvation Is In Jesus Christ The Person In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Anakin, every one of your links but one, biases their "opinion" of Is 64:6 on LDS theology, and the other one I simply disagree with. So I stand by my exegesis, which, IMO, demonstrates a more scholarly view than your "opinions."
Calm Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Well, you can take your hateful attitude and your jocularity somewhere else, if you don't mind. Don't bother responding to me again unless you're prepared to treat me with the dignity and respect that I deserve. I don't care who you think you are or how many posts you have. That's nothing to me. So if you're not challenged beyond your ability to defend your beliefs, then why don't you defend them rather than attempting to change the focus to disparaging my character instead? This isn't my first rodeo either, cowboy, and that ploy only tells me you don't really have any valid answsers.You are really misreading my posts.
Bobbieaware Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Hello Bobbieaware. Thanks for the quote.It's my understanding that Jesus' sacrifice raises me from the dead, and this is called being perfected in Christ, but only if I have worked to overcome all of my own sins and done ALL I can do while in this life. Then grace is sufficient and I am worthy of eternal life. Right?I'm trying to find out if anyone here knows anyone who has actually achieved true repentence by forsaking all of their sins, all the time, never repeating any sin, denying themself of ALL ungodliness, and then doing ALL you can do.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1972/04/salvation-and-exaltation?lang=eng&media=videoJuly 1972Salvation and ExaltationElder Theodore M. BurtonAssistant to the Council of the TwelveExaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to pass. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them.So exaltation is a gift from God, but I still have to pay for it? By becoming sinless and denying myself of all ungodliness. Correct?Your befuddlement stems from conflating justification with sanctification. Throughout the New Testament, the Lord and his apostles continually taught that after initial justification (forgiveness) the true believers (those who have genuine gratitude and thanksgiving for the Lord's infinite and eternal sacrifice) will give to due honor to that sacrifice by always being sure to continually "grow in the grace of the knowledge of God," that through the empowerment of the Spirit they might obtain "a more exceeding and eternal weight of glory," while those who do despite to the spirit of divine atoning grace will be saved but not obtain the full recommence of reward promised to the fully valiant and faithful. And the Prophet Joseph Smith said this glorious process of continual growth in the grace and knowledge of God will not find ultimate completion in this life..."When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil (death) before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world..." (Joseph Smith) Edited October 10, 2015 by Bobbieaware
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 You are really misreading my posts. Well perhaps even though you find it distasteful, perhaps you should consider tempering them with love. And I sure would apprecieate if someone would either demonstrate why I'm wrong about repentance being impossible, or agree with me. All I can seem to elicit from anyone here is condescention aimed towards my character, while the elephant in the room goes completely unnoticed.
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Your befuddlement stems from conflating justification with sanctification. Throughout the New Testament, the Lord and his apostles continually taught that after initial justification (forgiveness) the true believers (those who have genuine gratitude and thanksgiving for the Lord's infinite and eternal sacrifice) will give to due honor to that sacrifice by always being sure to continually "grow in the grace of the knowledge of God," that through the empowerment of the Spirit they might obtain "a more exceeding and eternal weight of glory," while those who do despite to the spirit of divine atoning grace will be saved but not obtain the full recommence of reward promised to the fully valiant and faithful. And the Prophet Joseph Smith said this glorious process of continual growth in the grace and knowledge of God will not find ultimate completion in this life..."When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil (death) before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world..." (Joseph Smith) Hi Bobbieaware, thanks for engaging me. Hmmm. So if the Book of Mormon teaches a doctrine that is literally impossible to abide by, such as true repentance, which my salvation hinges entirely upon should I fail, I should not be concerned with that because if I just wait until I die, everything will be just fine because I will continue to learn until I comprehend. And you think the Christian doctrine of salvation by grace is too easy? Sheesh LDS don't really have to keep the commandments after all? Is Joseph Smith disagreeing with the Book of Mormon which says one must repent in this life? See Alma 34:34,35 Edited October 10, 2015 by BlahBlahBlah
Anakin7 Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) BlahBlahBlau - Totaly disagree my posts still are standing. They stand independant of LDS Theology [Thou they agree without knowing it ] it is theres. May True Grace Be obtained by you. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited October 10, 2015 by Anakin7
Bobbieaware Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (edited) Hi Bobbieaware, thanks for engaging me.Hmmm. So if the Book of Mormon teaches a doctrine that is literally impossible to abide by, such as true repentance, which my salvation hinges entirely upon should I fail, I should not be concerned with that because if I just wait until I die, everything will be just fine because I will continue to learn until I comprehend.And you think the Christian doctrine of salvation by grace is too easy? SheeshLDS don't really have to keep the commandments after all?Is Joseph Smith disagreeing with the Book of Mormon which says one must repent in this life? See Alma 34:34,35In the LDS Church, the expression "this life" (I.e. life in the fallen state) refers to life in the flesh and in the spirit world prior to the resurrection. Because of his great love and mercy, the Latter-day Saints believe God provides for repentance while in the fallen body and also while in the post-mortal realm of spirits prior to the final judgement that takes place after the resurrection.As for the Latter-day Saint quest to continually grow in the grace and knowledge of God, unto the eventual day of full sanctification in Christ, we are simply following the inspired counsel of the Apostle Paul; 12 NOT AS THOUGH I HAD ALREADY ATTAINED, either were ALREADY PERFECT: but I follow after, IF that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I COUNT NOT MYSELF TO HAVE APPREHENDED: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and REACHING FORTH UNTO THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE BEFORE, 14 I PRESS TOWARD THE MARK FOR THE PRIZE of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3)Why revile and make sport of the Latter-day Saints for taking Paul at his word? And excuse us if we take the Lord at his word when he solemnly proclaimed that only those believers who overcome the world, as he overcame the world, will be given the right to reign as kings and be seated on the very throne of God (see Revelation 3).By the way, you are awfully presumptuous and unkind to put erroneous words in my mouth. But I have come to expect nothing less from most anti-Mormons (there are rare exceptions). You might learn a lot from me if you can turn over a new leaf and demonstrate a sufficient degree of respect and kindness to encourage me to continue in dialogue. But if you continue being presumptuous and disrespectful I'll disengage and leave you with your faulty understanding of the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I say this because I have been participating on this board long enough to have learned it's useless trying to engage disrespectful and dismissive know-it-alls in a worthwhile discussion. Edited October 10, 2015 by Bobbieaware
danielwoods Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Well perhaps even though you find it distasteful, perhaps you should consider tempering them with love. And I sure would apprecieate if someone would either demonstrate why I'm wrong about repentance being impossible, or agree with me. All I can seem to elicit from anyone here is condescention aimed towards my character, while the elephant in the room goes completely unnoticed. As a fellow Evangelical I would like to advise you to temper your judgement about people, especially Calm and especially on a web based forum, where emotion and sarcasm isn't always communicated accurately. Calm is one of the nicest persons you'll meet on this board and I've never heard her make a hateful comment yet. So my advice... chill... and read some threads for a bit and get to know people first. As for your elephant in the room. Often times people don't want to have to explain their position for the 100th time, that is often why you don't get much reaction from people. 1
Calm Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 I appreciate that, daniel. It means a lot to me. I was wondering if perhaps I was having a really bad day without realizing it. . It can be confusing at times to understand what someone means if one hasn't any history with them. Usually I tend to explain more, perhaps that contributed.And your comment of the 100th time is quite kind and generous since from what I've seen you've gone through a bit of that on the board as well. We all keep trying to turn the light on for the other guy, do we not? I think timing, right after conference, debating...many use the time to have a breather and recharge, so may not want to walk too well worn paths at the moment.
Vance Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 (In the quad) Bible Dictionary P 697This Grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.Divine Grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, Grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence, the explanation, "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne 25:23) It is truly the Grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible. The definition appears to me to be an "if, then statement. IF you give your total best effort, THEN you can receive grace. So what does "total effort" involve anyway?This has already been addressed in this thread. It is a classic Evangelical misrepresentation of what the verse says and means. Here is a small clue. The word "after" in that verse means after! It doesn't mean "because of". It means after in the chronological sense. So, here is example #1 of you doing exactly what I warned you about.
Vance Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 I read it, but it's a clear misinterpretation of what the Bible teaches concerning faith, grace and salvation. The Bible clealy teaches that salvation is by grace, through faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ, plus nothing. In fact, I might ask if you have repented for attempting to offer good works (filthy rags) to the Lord as righteous deeds? Isaiah 64:6 For we have all become as one who is unclean, and all our righteousness is as a polluted garment: and we all fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.Here is another example of your misuse of Scripture. The "filthy rags" of Isa 64:6 are not "righteous deed" or "righteous works" or even "righteousness" in the correct sense. Read the verse in context. It is referring to the acts of the wicked. The "righteousnesses" of the wicked are not real acts of righteousness. So, there you go. Another example of you doing what I warned you about.
Vance Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 Eph 4:29Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for building up as the need may be, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30Don't grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outcry, and slander, be put away from you, with all malice. 32And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, just as God also in Christ forgave you. So, with that in mind, will you care to address my questions? So, with that in mind, why the snide comment? What does that mean, to be perfected in Christ? If one has denied all ungodliness, hasn't one forsaken all of his sins? The last time I checked the reformed Egyptian dictionary, "all" meant all.
Vance Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ” (Moro. 10:32). Notice the "if/then" statement? "If" one denies himselff of ALL ungodliness, "then" is grace sufficient. Do you know of anyone besides Jesus Christ who has actually accomplished this?Would the words of the Bible convince you? Somehow I think not. Matt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Vance Posted October 10, 2015 Posted October 10, 2015 That's not what I read here: Moroni 10: 32, 3332Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace... 33And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins , that ye become holy , without spot. If you are "perfect" in Christ, deny yourself of All ungodliness with all your might, mind and strength. THEN is grace sufficient for you.Also, consider the following:Alma 34: 34,3534Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...October 1977 The Blessings of Righteous Obedience Delbert L. Stapleyhttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/10/the-blessings-of-righteous-obedience?lang=engWe must recognize that mortality has been granted to us as a probationary state where all physical appetites are to be mastered. It is far more difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins which involve physical habits and actions. The words of Amulek in the Book of Mormon give emphasis to this principle: “Behold,” he said, “now is the time and the day of your salvation. …“This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. …“If we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …“That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:31–34.)It is obvious we either discipline our lives here, or pay the price for the undisciplined life in the world to come. end quoteThank you for posting this very inspiring message. BUT for some reason you seem to think that the Grace of Christ is somehow being denied by them. Think again.
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