Flyonthewall Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Vance, I only own what I actually believe, not necessarily what you think I believe.From post 861: "While the charges are directed at the group, as an Individual, it is indirect to me and both are false arguments. More to follow". First you are in solidarity with the group, then you want to separate yourself from it. Elder McConkie addressed a belief that exists within the Protestant/Evangelical sphere. You claim he falsely represents your belief. It has been shown that the beleif exists in the group that you claim to be a member of. If you are a member of the group, then you need to own it. If your beleifs do not match that of the group, then are you really a member of the group? Perhaps you are not as much a member of the group as you thought...? 1
Vance Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Vance, I only own what I actually believe, not necessarily what you think I believe.As I recall, it was YOU that gave us the definition of "grace" that I was referring too. So, yes, you do own it, until and unless you disavow that non-scriptural/heretical definition. So, what is it going to be?
Anakin7 Posted September 15, 2015 Posted September 15, 2015 Vance perhaps you can link to John Gee's awesome paper entitled - " The Grace of Christ" for coolrok7. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Vance Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Vance perhaps you can link to John Gee's awesome paper entitled - " The Grace of Christ" for coolrok7. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Is this what you are looking for? http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/22/1/S00010-5176a159eeb0510Gee.pdf
Anakin7 Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) Vance yes thank you for that gift !, I will now give you a gift as an exchange - Grace For Grace - from a non LDS Christian http://www.donimon.org/graceunmeritedfavor.html . I sent this to our Lutheran critic coolrok some time ago with no response. I will be really interested to see his response to The True Grace of Jesus Christ that John Gee presents in his awesome paper and the one I posted here that agrees with True LDS Doctrine/Teaching on True Grace. And do not forget True Faith is a law - http://www.tgm.org/FaithIsALaw.html so one can Accept/Access/Activate True Grace. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited September 16, 2015 by Anakin7
stephenpurdy Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 If repentance is required for salvation, and if Repentance/Salvation is dependent on God's will alone, and is in no way resulting in the choices of individuals who have sinned, then perhaps coolrok should be advocating "Universal Salvation". For God, "does not will for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) Who, after all, can defy the will of God? Who does the choosing? "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15) Are there scriptures that say that God "chose us"? Of course. However, the LDS understanding of pre-mortal spiritual life places everything in the proper context. God chose certain spirits to live in mortality in certain nations, in specific places and in specific times. "He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation." (Acts 17:26) God knew which individuals would never hear the gospel of Jesus Christ in their lifetime. God also knew exactly who would have the gospel presented to them, and God chose which individuals He would reveal Himself to prior to their entering mortality. God chose specific spirits for certain missions in their mortal lives, the greatest of these was Jesus Christ himself. When it comes to predestination/foreordination, the Scriptures speak of Jesus Christ and his disciples using the same terms: Jesus Christ, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." (1 Peter 1:20) "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29) (please note that the term "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is the same term used in 1 Peter 1:20 referring to Jesus Christ. "He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." (Eph 1:5) Why would God choose certain spirits rather than others? Is it random? Why did God the Father choose Jesus Christ over the "fellow" angels/spirits? Hebrews chapter 1 gives us an idea: In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. .... Jesus Christ was chosen, and He was appointed to inherit the Father's kingdom. He was (and is) exactly like God the Father in every way. ...about the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has set you above your fellowsby anointing you with the oil of joy.” Here we read in Hebrews chapter 1 verse 9, that Christ was set above his companions, the other spirits, because he loved righteousness and hated wickedness. This is why Jesus was "chosen/anointed" to be the Creator of the universe and the Savior of us all. God chooses individuals based on their characteristics and based on how they have used their free will prior to entering mortality. The only way you can understand free will, God's sovereignty, salvation, and predestination/foreordination is if you accept what Joseph Smith taught about our existence prior to mortality. Otherwise, you will always find yourself in confusion. Let's take the apostle Paul. God knew Paul personally and in a very real way prior to his entering mortality. God had a special mission for Paul to accomplish. God placed Paul in the right place and in the right time. God chose when he would reveal Himself, through Jesus Christ, so that Paul could accept this revelation and fulfill this mission. -Stephen 2
Vance Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 1 Tim 4:4 (God) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Anakin7 Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 coolrok7 as a Lutheran Christian believes the Bible Teaches [ in his mind ] the Biblical Doctrine of Predestination of all individuals past present future. If I am am incorrect on coolroks doctrine belief I stand corrected. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
danielwoods Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 If repentance is required for salvation, and if Repentance/Salvation is dependent on God's will alone, and is in no way resulting in the choices of individuals who have sinned, then perhaps coolrok should be advocating "Universal Salvation". For God, "does not will for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) Who, after all, can defy the will of God? Who does the choosing? "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15) Are there scriptures that say that God "chose us"? Of course. However, the LDS understanding of pre-mortal spiritual life places everything in the proper context. God chose certain spirits to live in mortality in certain nations, in specific places and in specific times. "He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation." (Acts 17:26) God knew which individuals would never hear the gospel of Jesus Christ in their lifetime. God also knew exactly who would have the gospel presented to them, and God chose which individuals He would reveal Himself to prior to their entering mortality. God chose specific spirits for certain missions in their mortal lives, the greatest of these was Jesus Christ himself. When it comes to predestination/foreordination, the Scriptures speak of Jesus Christ and his disciples using the same terms: Jesus Christ, "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." (1 Peter 1:20) "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29) (please note that the term "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is the same term used in 1 Peter 1:20 referring to Jesus Christ. "He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." (Eph 1:5) Why would God choose certain spirits rather than others? Is it random? Why did God the Father choose Jesus Christ over the "fellow" angels/spirits? Hebrews chapter 1 gives us an idea: In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. .... Jesus Christ was chosen, and He was appointed to inherit the Father's kingdom. He was (and is) exactly like God the Father in every way. ...about the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has set you above your fellowsby anointing you with the oil of joy.” Here we read in Hebrews chapter 1 verse 9, that Christ was set above his companions, the other spirits, because he loved righteousness and hated wickedness. This is why Jesus was "chosen/anointed" to be the Creator of the universe and the Savior of us all. God chooses individuals based on their characteristics and based on how they have used their free will prior to entering mortality. The only way you can understand free will, God's sovereignty, salvation, and predestination/foreordination is if you accept what Joseph Smith taught about our existence prior to mortality. Otherwise, you will always find yourself in confusion. Let's take the apostle Paul. God knew Paul personally and in a very real way prior to his entering mortality. God had a special mission for Paul to accomplish. God placed Paul in the right place and in the right time. God chose when he would reveal Himself, through Jesus Christ, so that Paul could accept this revelation and fulfill this mission. -Stephen As we have discussed in the past. This isn't the only way to understand free will. That is your opinion, one which the vast majority of Christendom disagrees with. The largest flaw in your premise is the assumption that we pre-existed. There is no where in the Biblical text where it states that this is the case. You'd think that if it was that important of a doctrine it would be mentioned at least once, or at least explicitly spelled out.
stephenpurdy Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 As we have discussed in the past. This isn't the only way to understand free will. That is your opinion, one which the vast majority of Christendom disagrees with. In our discussions, you have never been able to explain your understanding of free will. Furthermore, your appeal to the propaganda tactic of "bandwagon" will hardly work on me. ("Hey, most everyone else believes like me ... so it must be true!") The largest flaw in your premise is the assumption that we pre-existed. No assumption. God has revealed the doctrine of pre-existence quite clearly through His prophets. If there was any debate on the matter in the past, it is settled. God has spoken. From our point of view, you have simply rejected the prophets of God, just as the Jews and pagans rejected the apostles of the New Testament; just as the pagans rejected Moses, etc. Again, we are assuming nothing in this matter. That would be like having a Jewish man tell you that you are "assuming" that Jesus was the Son of God. There is no where in the Biblical text where it states that this is the case. You'd think that if it was that important of a doctrine it would be mentioned at least once, or at least explicitly spelled out. It may not be as explicit as you like, but that is what the "restoration" of the gospel in the "fulness of times" has helped to resolve (among many other issues). Furthermore, your argument is quite interesting ... coming from someone who believes in "the Trinity". http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65453-lds-view-of-godhead-trinity/ -Stephen
Vance Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 As we have discussed in the past. This isn't the only way to understand free will.That is merely your opinion. That is your opinion, one which the vast majority of Christendom disagrees with.Logical fallacy known as "Appeal to Popularity" The largest flaw in your premise is the assumption that we pre-existed.If that is a part of his premise, then it is not a flaw in his premise at all. And again, it is merely your opinion. There is no where in the Biblical text where it states that this is the case.Not really true. But it is true that no where in the Biblical text is it denied. You'd think that if it was that important of a doctrine it would be mentioned at least once, or at least explicitly spelled out.It is explicitly spelled out in other scriptures.
Vance Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; That verse is rather explicit that the children existed prior to partaking of flesh and blood, just like Jesus existed prior to partaking of flesh and blood.
stephenpurdy Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;That verse is rather explicit that the children existed prior to partaking of flesh and blood, just like Jesus existed prior to partaking of flesh and blood. There is that, and others. Just like I demonstrated in post 981, foreordination is spoken of in the same language concerning the saved as is used of Jesus Christ, who was chosen by God the Father before his mortal existence. Imagine that. Not only does LDS doctrine fit well with the Biblical text (far better than evangelical Christianity), but it also makes logical sense in terms of free will, sovereignty, the Godhead, existence of evil and suffering, etc, etc, etc. But hey, 'most Christians' believe as Daniel does, so maybe we should just accept all that confusion so we can belong with the crowd. What do you say Vance? -Stephen Edited September 22, 2015 by stephenpurdy
danielwoods Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 In our discussions, you have never been able to explain your understanding of free will. Furthermore, your appeal to the propaganda tactic of "bandwagon" will hardly work on me. ("Hey, most everyone else believes like me ... so it must be true!") No assumption. God has revealed the doctrine of pre-existence quite clearly through His prophets. If there was any debate on the matter in the past, it is settled. God has spoken. From our point of view, you have simply rejected the prophets of God, just as the Jews and pagans rejected the apostles of the New Testament; just as the pagans rejected Moses, etc. Again, we are assuming nothing in this matter. That would be like having a Jewish man tell you that you are "assuming" that Jesus was the Son of God. It may not be as explicit as you like, but that is what the "restoration" of the gospel in the "fulness of times" has helped to resolve (among many other issues). Right. If one has the LDS faith, then it's true. Not good enough for me. I'm interested in truth that is true regardless of whose faith it is. Your false analogy with Jesus and Jews. Funny thing, most all the believers in the beginning were Jewish. Jesus was Jewish. Hmmm.... he showed them proofs... hmmm....
danielwoods Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;That verse is rather explicit that the children existed prior to partaking of flesh and blood, just like Jesus existed prior to partaking of flesh and blood. Actually 1) it's not explicit at all, it says nothing about our pre-existance and 2) it's not really worth arguing about since you don't believe the doctrine because of Hebrews 2.
stephenpurdy Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Right. If one has the LDS faith, then it's true. Correct. Here's how it works. IF one holds to the idea of the pre-mortal existence, THEN one can reconcile all of the scriptures which relate to free will, God's sovereignty and "predestination". However, IF one holds to the idea of God creating individual spirits ex nihilo at the moment of their conception, THEN scriptures which speak of free will, predestination, and God's sovereignty become contradictory. Not good enough for me. I'm interested in truth that is true regardless of whose faith it is. Your false analogy with Jesus and Jews. I think you missed the point. To a Jewish man, you are making the "assumption" that the New Testament is true. To a Buddhist, you are taking doctrines from a Bible that you "assume" is the inerrant word of God. I am just turning the game you are trying to play back onto yourself. In our previous discussion, and in the video series I provided, I did not take anything for granted. I said that: IF God creates us out of nothing , then .....IF there is a part of our being which is coeternal with God, then .... Part 1 Part 2 Funny thing, most all the believers in the beginning were Jewish. Jesus was Jewish. Hmmm.... he showed them proofs... hmmm.... I am not discussing cultural Judaism or race. If they rejected Christ, then they became known as "Christians." Not sure what kind of point you are trying to make here. -Stephen
danielwoods Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 Correct. Here's how it works. IF one holds to the idea of the pre-mortal existence, THEN one can reconcile all of the scriptures which relate to free will, God's sovereignty and "predestination". However, IF one holds to the idea of God creating individual spirits ex nihilo at the moment of their conception, THEN scriptures which speak of free will, predestination, and God's sovereignty become contradictory. I think you missed the point. To a Jewish man, you are making the "assumption" that the New Testament is true. To a Buddhist, you are taking doctrines from a Bible that you "assume" is the inerrant word of God. I am just turning the game you are trying to play back onto yourself. In our previous discussion, and in the video series I provided, I did not take anything for granted. I said that: IF God creates us out of nothing , then .....IF there is a part of our being which is coeternal with God, then .... I am not discussing cultural Judaism or race. If they rejected Christ, then they became known as "Christians." Not sure what kind of point you are trying to make here. -Stephen Once again, you claim it's contradictory, it isn't. You claim that there is this huge problem with free will. There isn't. The larger problem is the complete lack of biblical support for pre-mortal existence. And I don't make the assumption that the NT is true. Rather, I believe based on the evidence Jesus provided.
Anakin7 Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 http://lds.net/forums/topic/24752-pre-mortal-existence-scriptures/ In His Eternal Debt/Grace anakin7
Anakin7 Posted September 22, 2015 Posted September 22, 2015 http://en.fairmormon.org/images/d/d6/PreExistenceBibleBarney.pdf In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
stephenpurdy Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) Once again, you claim it's contradictory, it isn't. You claim that there is this huge problem with free will. There isn't. Of course there is. I laid it out right there in those two videos I just re posted. You have never even begun to address the points I make in those videos ... because YOU CAN'T. I didn't just point to those links, we discussed it on the forum and the best you could do was point to William Lane Craig. I explained why Craig's arguments fail. (Post 426 and 429 on the link below where I discuss how Alvin Plantinga and WLCs "free will defense" fails) All of this occurred on this thread http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65449-the-nature-and-relationship-of-god-and-creation/ Starting at post 17 (see also post 22) is where the discussion began, if anyone else reading wants the context of the conversation. But if you just watch the videos, you will see that no assumption is made, but instead, BOTH are considered. IF ex nihilo , then ...IF ex materia, then ... Those are two possibilities and you have to look at the logical conclusions that result from these two theological positions. You, Daniel, have not addressed the arguments made in the videos given way back in post 17, or the argumentation laid out in post 22. You dodge, you avoid, you misdirect, and it has gotten you nowhere. -Stephen Edited September 25, 2015 by stephenpurdy
danielwoods Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 Of course there is. I laid it out right there in those two videos I just re posted. You have never even begun to address the points I make in those videos ... because YOU CAN'T. I didn't just point to those links, we discussed it on the forum and the best you could do was point to William Lane Craig. I explained why Craig's arguments fail. (Post 426 and 429 on the link below where I discuss how Alvin Plantinga and WLCs "free will defense" fails) All of this occurred on this thread http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65449-the-nature-and-relationship-of-god-and-creation/ Starting at post 17 (see also post 22) is where the discussion began, if anyone else reading wants the context of the conversation. But if you just watch the videos, you will see that no assumption is made, but instead, BOTH are considered. IF ex nihilo , then ...IF ex materia, then ... Those are two possibilities and you have to look at the logical conclusions that result from these two theological positions. You, Daniel, have not addressed the arguments made in the videos given way back in post 17, or the argumentation laid out in post 22. You dodge, you avoid, you misdirect, and it has gotten you nowhere. -Stephen Ok. In a nut shell your argument is that I can't believe what I believe, because you believe what I believe is impossible. You telling me that my belief is contradictory is like me telling the LDS what they believe... and just to let you know, the LDS hate that! So why do it to me?
coolrok7 Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 So where is the location. I'll take the risk Anakin7.
Anakin7 Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) Have been gone for some time. The location of who/what/where ?. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited September 25, 2015 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted September 25, 2015 Posted September 25, 2015 Different locations in Downtown Pomona. I am working there at times on the weekend and cannot get into spiritual conversations do to my responsibility to work my job. But i can see and here some of the coversations of my Evangelical Christian friends who witness to those individuals at times when they come to witness. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted September 26, 2015 Posted September 26, 2015 Based on what you've already shared what it is they were saying that you disagree with, give me an address or location where I can go and observe.
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