Flyonthewall Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 What part did you play in your being conceived?And what does this have to do with anything?
Alma 11:44 Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 https://youtu.be/i4H4AL2NHVU Jesus the GREAT I AM the self existing GOD You are very close to being banned for preaching. Why would this be considered preaching and don't LDS believe Jesus is Jehovah the GREAT I AM
mfbukowski Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 Why would this be considered preaching and don't LDS believe Jesus is Jehovah the GREAT I AMIt was one of many many many posts which were preaching. The mods had had enough.
Calm Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 Why would this be considered preaching and don't LDS believe Jesus is Jehovah the GREAT I AMHe wasn't engaging anyone in discussion iirc, but just proselyting.
danielwoods Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 To my ears, we are trying to say the same thing.If we are judged by our works(as in Revelations20), then does that not mean we merit the judgement we receive? Generally speaking no. As believers in Christ we are not judged by our works. We have the righteousness of Christ already. We didn't attain it, or work for it, because it was given to us. We have different views of Revelation 20, so I'm not sure how fruitful it would be to point out that in my view, we (as believers) aren't the ones being judged in that passage. Your last question, I will readily admit that our own actions, ALL BY THEMSELVES, will not earn us anything, but it is the Atonement of Christ that gives any meaning to our actions.Would you say this is accurate?Our actions not only wouldn't earn us anything, they couldn't ever. Our sin was against an infinite God, therefore, our finite works don't even begin to atone for our sin, even if they were somehow amplified by Christ. That concept isn't what I see taught in scripture. Rather, we've been given the righteousness of Christ, and as a result we become a new creation, where good works spring forth from our being as a result of God working in and through us. There is never a sense that Christians are judged by their works. Non-believers are because they don't trust in the work of Christ, but their own works as Rev. 20 talks about. This is not to be confused with the rewards (what the LDS refer to as Exaltation) for the Christians which is based on the works Christ does through us as believers here on Earth.
Flyonthewall Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Generally speaking no. As believers in Christ we are not judged by our works. We have the righteousness of Christ already. We didn't attain it, or work for it, because it was given to us.We are given the light of Christ that we can discern good from bad. This is given to everyone - standard equipment. We have different views of Revelation 20, so I'm not sure how fruitful it would be to point out that in my view, we (as believers) aren't the ones being judged in that passage.I suppose we do interpret it different. I suppose "believers" never experience mortality - not sure where that is found. Your last question, Our actions not only wouldn't earn us anything, they couldn't ever. Our sin was against an infinite God, therefore, our finite works don't even begin to atone for our sin, even if they were somehow amplified by Christ. That concept isn't what I see taught in scripture. Rather, we've been given the righteousness of Christ, and as a result we become a new creation, where good works spring forth from our being as a result of God working in and through us. There is never a sense that Christians are judged by their works. Non-believers are because they don't trust in the work of Christ, but their own works as Rev. 20 talks about. This is not to be confused with the rewards (what the LDS refer to as Exaltation) for the Christians which is based on the works Christ does through us as believers here on Earth.It is stated in the scriptures, that ALL men will be judged after they die(no exceptions mentioned for Christians/beleivers or otherwise). Are the rewards you mention part of your salvation? So according to your belief, God judges us based on what God has done through us? God judges God's effort... ? Edited July 1, 2015 by Flyonthewall 1
Anakin7 Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Regarding The Seriousness of not Inheriting the Kingdom of God from a Protestant Evangelist - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/inheritkog.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited July 1, 2015 by Anakin7
danielwoods Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) We are given the light of Christ that we can discern good from bad. This is given to everyone - standard equipment. I suppose we do interpret it different. I suppose "believers" never experience mortality - not sure where that is found. It is stated in the scriptures, that ALL men will be judged after they die(no exceptions mentioned for Christians/beleivers or otherwise).Are the rewards you mention part of your salvation?So according to your belief, God judges us based on what God has done through us? God judges God's effort... ? All men are judged, but not all men are judged in the same way. For believers, we submit ourselves to his judgement already. When we accept his atonement, we accept that we are judged unworthy and sinners in the sight of God based on our own good works alone. This is what repentance/salvation means. As Paul states, if we are dead with him, then we will also live with him. This is why we are considered a new creation now. So, our judgement isn't the same when we are judged. The judgement for believers isn't about salvation or not, rather it's about degrees of rewards. This can be confusing if one doesn't keep in mind the context of a passage like Rev. 20. Notice in Revelation 19, that it mentions "Saints" who are already clean and ready for the wedding. So, when we get to the white throne judgement, it's not believers who are judged in this context. Rewards are in heaven, and not much detail is given about them. I think of it like this. God is just, and Jesus said that no one who has given up their house and home for him will not be repaid in a greater measure. So, I think of it like this. Salvation is about getting there. Rewards are for those who are there, and something like one person is repaid 500 million dollars (I know there's no money in heaven) and another is repaid 600 million dollars, or something along that line. The differences are minuscule compared to the overwhelming glory of just being in God's presence. God judges us (rewards us) based on what we allow him to do through us. Our works are what he does through us. Our will is still in play and so we have to allow him to work. He provides the power and grace, we just allow it to happen, or not. Edited July 1, 2015 by danielwoods
TheSkepticChristian Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 All men are judged, but not all men are judged in the same way. For believers, we submit ourselves to his judgement already. When we accept his atonement, we accept that we are judged unworthy and sinners in the sight of God based on our own good works alone. video removed
Vance Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 No. Anything of grace is not merited, earned, or worked for (Romans 4). Faith is how grace is maintained.It cost Jesus His life as a perfect man (which provides for our Justification)! Who is God in the flesh.Really? Then how do you explain receiving grace for grace? Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
coolrok7 Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 The operative term is receive (of His fullness) which is the benefit to those who believe in what He came to do. This was to fulfill the law and become the sacrifice for sin as the blameless Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world by the shedding of His blood! Unmerited favor (on our part) to those who receive his grace, not by works of righteousness which we have done.
coolrok7 Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 My point to Anakin7 Flyonthewall, was in reference to a believer's position "before God" in Justification or in the Protestant tradition, "Faith Alone", which is not a denial of having good works. We do have something to do with our justification before men though which is James's point in reference to faith without works is dead. I agree with that statement but the Protestant "Faith Alone" is not the equivalent of his argument (a different point being made). In the conception question I referred to, the individual has nothing to do with it as an active participant in its causation and is passive in what is being accomplished in the procreative act which brings forth life in the womb of the mother. So it is with being born again, a spiritual rebirth brought about through the Holy Spirit and the word of God though which grace comes. We become active or participate in our Sanctification (being set apart for works of service). This is brought about through the power of the Holy Spirit after hearing/believing the Gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, not by works of righteousness which we have done.
Vance Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 The operative term is receive (of His fullness) which is the benefit to those who believe in what He came to do. This was to fulfill the law and become the sacrifice for sin as the blameless Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world by the shedding of His blood! Unmerited favor (on our part) to those who receive his grace, not by works of righteousness which we have done. So, how exactly do you receive and "unmerited favor" in exchange for an "unmerited favor"? You can't. The evangelical definition of grace is bogus. It doesn't come from scripture, but is man fabricated. Scripture contradicts it.
Flyonthewall Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Grace isn't "unmerited favor that you do not work for" but it is unmerited in that the value of what you bring is far out-weighed by the value of what is given to you.
coolrok7 Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Where do you get exchanged from receive? We receive grace for grace. God doesn't need grace, we do.Grace in the context of Ephesians 2:8-10, is the foundational basis of our salvation as in for by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works. . .Created in Christ Jesus unto good works. . .
Flyonthewall Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Where do you get exchanged from receive? We receive grace for grace. God doesn't need grace, we do. Grace in the context of Ephesians 2:8-10, is the foundational basis of our salvation as in for by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works. . .Created in Christ Jesus unto good works. . .To receive something for something is an exchange. To receive grace, for grace, is an exchange. We are required to have faith, which cannot be separated from works, and in exchange we are saved by the grace of God. That which we bring does not equal what the Lord brings. Just like in the Parable of the Talents - 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Anakin7 Posted July 7, 2015 Posted July 7, 2015 (edited) Once again coolrok ignore's The True Anchient meaning of True Grace [charis] and True Faith [pistis] of which studies have been done that show that within the walls of The Heavenly Jerusalem Where God The Father The Monarch of The Universe, God The Son Jesus Christ The Vice Monarch of The Universe, God The Holy Ghost Spirit The Awesome Sanctifier/Testator of The Universe, Archangels,Angels,Rightiousness,Truth,True Old Testament Prophets,Hebrews,Israelites,Jews,True New Testament Prophets,Apostles,Saints,Christians whether Jew or Gentile that True Grace [charis] has approx 45 Definitional meanings - The # 1 meaning is unmerited Favor. That unmerited Favor is accessed,accepted,activated,grabed hold of,obtained,recieved by way of True Faith - [pistis] which has approx 25 Definitional meanings - [connected to the same indifiduals and doctrinal concepts for True Grace above] some of which are Allegience,Commitment,Confidence,Dedication, Devotion, Discipleship,Faithfulness,Fidelity,Loyalty,Obedience,Trust - In other words we Give our Lives To Him. Salvation is absolutly Free [2 Nephi 2:4] but it costs us our very Lives [Luke 14:24-35]. We recieve Grace for Grace. We applaud [And Hug] those True Christians who give up all for The Cause of Christ. No Cheep Grace, antinomianism,gnosticism thought and behavior to be Saved by True Grace. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited July 7, 2015 by Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted July 7, 2015 Posted July 7, 2015 When it comes to faith, everyone has the same capacity to have faith, the difference being the content of what the faith is in or its object.To the Christian it's faith in Jesus Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. This accomplished the atonement.Anyone who believes without distorting the truth and listening/believing the lies of false prophets are in jeopardy of not really having a saving faith.
Anakin7 Posted July 7, 2015 Posted July 7, 2015 And True LDS do not have True Faith [pistis] in Jesus Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection which accomplished the atonement ?. So once again you come here and you directly or indirectly are telling us "again" that we have been lied to by false prophets and not really having a saving Faith ?. There are those that feel the same way about Protestant Reformer Martin Luther and Lutheranism - of which you are a part coolrok. Please check your front and back door. You need True Grace accepted/accessed/actvated/grabed hold of/ obtained byTrue Faith. May you have a Blessed Day. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
JLHPROF Posted July 7, 2015 Posted July 7, 2015 When it comes to faith, everyone has the same capacity to have faith, the difference being the content of what the faith is in or its object. Mormons and traditional Christians both have faith in Christ who died on the cross and was resurrected.If I understand this notion you are saying that if we believe in Jesus Christ but in your opinion have a misunderstanding of his nature, that nullifies our faith? What level of perfect understanding of Christ's nature is necessary for my faith to count?Perhaps according to a traditional Christian a Mormon only understands Christ's nature 30% with 70% error.Perhaps a traditional Christian might believe he understands Christ's nature 75% with 25% error.I don't think anyone can reasonably claim to understand Christ's nature 100% in this life. So what is the passing grade to be saved? 50%? 70%? Why are you saved but a Mormon isn't? Surely it's not an issue of knowledge...
Flyonthewall Posted July 7, 2015 Posted July 7, 2015 When it comes to faith, everyone has the same capacity to have faith, the difference being the content of what the faith is in or its object. To the Christian it's faith in Jesus Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection. This accomplished the atonement. Anyone who believes without distorting the truth and listening/believing the lies of false prophets are in jeopardy of not really having a saving faith.It is very important to have faith in and acting on that faith in the truth and so it is vital to have true prophets to untangle the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ from the philosophies of men that have indeed distorted the plain and precious truths. LDS have great faith in Jesus Christ, His teachings, and His atonement, and are indeed lucky to have true and living prophets to teach and guide us as is the pattern thoughout all the scriptures.
coolrok7 Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 Correction: Anyone who claims to be a believer in Jesus Christ while accepting a distorted version of the Gospel (listening to/believing the lies of false prophets against the counsel of Biblical teaching) is in jeopardy of not really having a faith that enables one to be saved.
Anakin7 Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) The same can be said for the protestant prophet [ In the Hearts/Minds/Eyes of some ] Martin Luther - of which you are a spiritual adopted decendant of [ As believed by some non LDS and non Lutheran Christians ] that his teachings and those that promote his teachings are in danger of a different/distorted version of the gospel and those that listen /read his message against Biblical teaching of the true gospel and not having the correct faith that enables them to be Saved as was taught by Jesus Christ and his Prophets/Apostles in the Holy Bible.Same arguments can be turned right back at you and Lutheranism [Which has and is and will be in the future]. May you obtain True Grace [charis] accepted/accessed/activated by True Faith [pistis]. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited July 9, 2015 by Anakin7 1
Anakin7 Posted July 9, 2015 Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) Remember coolrok - Believing In/On Jesus also means obeying Him [Jesus] as well - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited July 10, 2015 by Anakin7
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