Storm Rider Posted July 10, 2015 Posted July 10, 2015 Correction: Anyone who claims to be a believer in Jesus Christ while accepting a distorted version of the Gospel (listening to/believing the lies of false prophets against the counsel of Biblical teaching) is in jeopardy of not really having a faith that enables one to be saved. Could you back that up with some scripture that explains that the saving grace of Jesus Christ is insufficient for salvation unless one has a perfect belief system in the nature of the Savior? That is what you are saying; if an individual believes in any distortion, an untruth or misunderstanding of the "Gospel" then that individual cannot possess a faith that enables him/her to be saved. I missed this scripture and look forward to your response. 3
Flyonthewall Posted July 10, 2015 Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Since when I have denied being obedient?Since when I have denied being obedient?When you deny works playing a part in your own salvation, you deny being obedient. You keep stating we are saved by faith through grace, yet you divorce yourself from living faith when you take obedience out of the mix. You think obedience/good works is a by product of salvation. It is not. It is part and parcel of living faith. Without works, faith is dead. We cannot be saved through the merits of our own works, but neither can we be saved if we do not put into practice our faith - by our works. Edited July 10, 2015 by Flyonthewall 2
Anakin7 Posted July 10, 2015 Posted July 10, 2015 Storm Rider, Flyonthewall, good observations and responses to coolrok7. Coolrok7 where did I state and say that you denied being obedient ?. I posted the link in a general True Gospel sense to the True a Doctrine of Belief that has Obedience within it's realm of definition. Also My post #s 807/817/819/823/824/ still stand. Hebrews 5:9 from your Hero Paul states that Jesus became [A moment in time for an individual] the Author [The Creator of ] of Eternal Salvation to all that Obey Him. His call is True Salvation Food with a command to come and Believe,have True Faith and True Obedience to Him to start and stay on the True Vine [ In Him - Jesus Christ ]. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Storm Rider Posted July 10, 2015 Posted July 10, 2015 What someone believes and what their church may teach are two entirely different things. Catholics would say that Jesus was eternally begotten of the Father. Others, Protestants can be rather confusing in their approach to this topic. I find some of them to go anywhere from a modalist approach to ...something else. I have always felt that Jesus was eternally part of the Godhead. Some LDS seem to think that Jesus did not become a member of the Godhead until he was "chosen" by the Father according to Jesus' will to implement the Father's plan for man's salvation. This has never made much sense to me. I have always believed that he was light years ahead of us due to his unity with the Father. Obviously he needed a body, but he was already creating worlds without number as a spirit. Good question. Thank you for bringing the topic up on this board. So Catholics believe (or the Catholic church officially teaches) that Christ was created by God the Father? I am late in responding and other contributors have provided answers, but just to be clear. The concept of eternally begotten should really be focused on the eternal rather than the begotten. Begotten, in this context, is a mystery. Catholics and Easter Orthodox teach that Jesus is eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. They each have no beginning and no end. If you are interested in reading more on this I can refer you to some writings, but I don't have them at my finger tips. When they talk of the mysteries comprehension can be very difficult to grasp or attain. For me I concluded that the Trinity is eternal and the only begetting was in this earthly realm; not begetting as a mortal things, but as the Trinity chooses to send the Son to earth. The process is a mystery and is best summed up as the NT did Luke 1:35: 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Spammer Posted July 10, 2015 Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) What someone believes and what their church may teach are two entirely different things. Catholics would say that Jesus was eternally begotten of the Father. Others, Protestants can be rather confusing in their approach to this topic. I find some of them to go anywhere from a modalist approach to ...something else. I have always felt that Jesus was eternally part of the Godhead. Some LDS seem to think that Jesus did not become a member of the Godhead until he was "chosen" by the Father according to Jesus' will to implement the Father's plan for man's salvation. This has never made much sense to me. I have always believed that he was light years ahead of us due to his unity with the Father. Obviously he needed a body, but he was already creating worlds without number as a spirit. Good question. Thank you for bringing the topic up on this board. So Catholics believe (or the Catholic church officially teaches) that Christ was created by God the Father? I am late in responding and other contributors have provided answers, but just to be clear. The concept of eternally begotten should really be focused on the eternal rather than the begotten. Begotten, in this context, is a mystery. Catholics and Easter Orthodox teach that Jesus is eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. They each have no beginning and no end. If you are interested in reading more on this I can refer you to some writings, but I don't have them at my finger tips. When they talk of the mysteries comprehension can be very difficult to grasp or attain. For me I concluded that the Trinity is eternal and the only begetting was in this earthly realm; not begetting as a mortal things, but as the Trinity chooses to send the Son to earth. The process is a mystery and is best summed up as the NT did Luke 1:35: 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Correct, SR. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believe the Son is eternally begotten of the Father. What we mean by that is that the Son is related to the Father as Son, he is begotten of the Father, but is begotten eternally - there never was a time when the Son was not (which was the heresy that the Alexandrian priest, Arius, promoted, prompting the calling of the Council of Nicea and the adoption of the Creed). Like the Father and the Holy Spirit, the Son is uncreated. Edited July 10, 2015 by Spammer
coolrok7 Posted July 10, 2015 Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) For some reason, when I try to get in the site, I get a forbidden message sometimes. Very irritating. Edited July 10, 2015 by coolrok7
Okrahomer Posted July 10, 2015 Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) For some reason, when I try to get in the site, I get a forbidden message sometimes. Very irritating.You might want to report it on this thread: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65597-report-bugs-here/ Edited July 10, 2015 by Okrahomer
coolrok7 Posted July 10, 2015 Posted July 10, 2015 Anakin7, when you said believing is obeying him as if I disagreed (Flyonthewalls comment as well: when you deny works. . .). It is a given to me so. . . .
Anakin7 Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 Coolrok7 awesome to read and hear that believing and obeying is a given to you ........ [in regards to Believing and obeying are to go hand in hand in a Salvation walk - No Once saved Always Saved]. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 As I've said, osas was never a position of mine and it is more a Baptist position.Once one has come to faith (Justification, Paul, is before God while justification, James, is before men), Sanctification begins (set apart for works of service).This is what you always ignore as I've explained this many times.
Anakin7 Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 Not ignoring coolrok7 we both do not believe in OSAS [Finaly an area of agreement !]. For True "Faith", coming to it is a work - True Faith - pistis = Allegience,Commitment,Confidence,Dedication,Devotion,Faithfulness,Fidelity,Loyalty,Obedience,Trust = Entering into a Covenant [The New One] to the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. Must put forth mental/physical Labor to Access/Accept/Activate Jesus Christ True Grace From the start of the race to the finish. Unless as according to Martin Luther/Luthernism you are or are not predestined to recieve True Salvation. Thanks for your post. May True Grace Be With You. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 From a Non LDS Kryptonian Saint [Catholic] responding to Protestants attack on Catholic Salvation/Soteriology and The "Justification before God in Paul and supposed Justification before Men in James. I post this in response to coolrok7's Salvation/Soteriological Protestant presentation he has given to show us our error of the Justification to who it is addressed to. http://jimmyakin.com/justification-in-james-2 In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Flyonthewall Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 As I've said, osas was never a position of mine and it is more a Baptist position. Once one has come to faith (Justification, Paul, is before God while justification, James, is before men), Sanctification begins (set apart for works of service). This is what you always ignore as I've explained this many times.It is good to be in agreement then. As to the distinction you make between Paul and James - I don't see it. Anakin7 has provided a link that disagrees with your outlook on it also - it is a good read.
coolrok7 Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 Jimmy Akin does not speak for me, I do. The issue here is how Mormonism misrepresents what I as an individual Christian believes based on Biblical Scripture. Not the false arguments of a 14 year old farmboy so called "Prophet of God". I will explain this and provide the Scriptural arguments (Storm Rider) in what I'm asserting. Coming to faith is a work of God, not the individuals. The individual responds to the grace of God through the power of the Holy Spirit in Sanctification after one understands what Jesus did for us in the death He experienced in His body on the cross (and yes, a part of that was preceded by the suffering that came upon Him in garden as well). Resurrection to eternal life , a free gift, a guarantee to those who believe this (not merited, earned, or worked for).
Anakin7 Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) Thank you for your reply coolrok, I must go to work now along with other life responsibilities. Will come back when time allows. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited July 11, 2015 by Anakin7
Flyonthewall Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 Jimmy Akin does not speak for me, I do.Doesn't speak for me either, but I can agree with some of what he says. The issue here is how Mormonism misrepresents what I as an individual Christian believes based on Biblical Scriptures.As far as I know the LDS church has never addressed what you as an individual believe. There have been statements made in a general manner addressing some beliefs within traditional christianity, but never about specific individuals. 1
JLHPROF Posted July 11, 2015 Posted July 11, 2015 Jimmy Akin does not speak for me, I do. The issue here is how Mormonism misrepresents what I as an individual Christian believes based on Biblical Scripture. Not the false arguments of a 14 year old farmboy so called "Prophet of God". You know, making light of others religion is no shining example of the religion you claim, nor much of an incentive to accept your arguments.If we are indeed misrepresenting what you believe, then that is a fault we need to work on. Respect goes both ways. Coming to faith is a work of God, not the individuals. The individual responds to the grace of God through the power of the Holy Spirit in Sanctification after one understands what Jesus did for us in the death He experienced in His body on the cross (and yes, a part of that was preceded by the suffering that came upon Him in garden as well). You still haven't explained why a Mormon who accepts the work Jesus did in his atonement and crucifixion cannot be saved simply because you think they misunderstand Christ's nature. A perfect understanding of Christ is not required for salvation, an acceptance of his atonement and of him as Lord is all that is required. Isn't that right?So if I misunderstand (in your eyes) who Christ was, that in no way stops me accepting him and what he did. I can be saved as Christians believe AND be a Mormon in my doctrinal and theological beliefs. Else the differences between Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Calvinists etc would impact their salvation too. Saying a Mormon can't be saved because they don't accept the Trinity doesn't even fit with Christianity. All that is required for salvation is to accept the atonement of Christ and act with faith in that act. If we do that, we are saved. 2
Anakin7 Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 Coolrok I have a few brief moments in in time. No Jimmy Akin does not speak for you but he is speaking to you [And other Protestant critics]. As a Lutheran do you not believe in predestination ?. All Lutheran Clergy and lay ,members have told me that prededtination is a Lutheran/Biblical Doctrine so therefore it is God's action that one is Saved or dammed, we have no control over Justification or sanctification in our lives - it has been predestined before time began and until time comes to an end. Not a joyful thought. Have a blessed day. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Going back to my post # 694 (p.35 of this thread) concerning the "word of God" is where I'll begin to explain. I was making a point to Vance in the sense of God being spirit (the Godhead being Father, Son, Holy Spirit, all Deity or God) , not flesh, blood, and bone as we are (disputed in Mormonism I know so you don't have to mention this). Quoting from a 1972 Reader's Digest: But either Jesus Christ—and the disciples touched and inspired by His spirit—spoke the truth or they did not. We believe that they spoke the truth, and that the truth they spoke was the Word of God. (Mormon Church Readers Digest Christmas advertisement, 1972) When Jesus' physical form began in the womb (different from our conception in that the sperm of the father units with the egg of the mother, a human life begins, the topic of the thread), which was by the Holy Spirit according to Luke 1:35/Matthew 1:20 (disputed by Brigham Young). In my view, based on the Word of God, the Mormonism of Joseph Smith, denies specific Biblical teaching by adding to/taking away from what is there. The "after all you can do" is one of them: . . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon) You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4) By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10) I will explain how my view, Justification before God is the "Faith Alone" of the Protestant Reformation (which is not at all the equal of what James is arguing) in which salvation is by grace through faith (the Biblical view), is misrepresented within Mormonism. Edited July 12, 2015 by coolrok7
JLHPROF Posted July 12, 2015 Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) In my view, based on the Word of God, the Mormonism of Joseph Smith, denies specific Biblical teaching by adding to/taking away from what is there. Yes, we understand you believe that.What difference does that make to whether a Mormon is saved or not?If they accept the atonement and Christ as Savior that is sufficient to salvation.A specific understanding theology is not one of the requirements. Edited July 12, 2015 by JLHPROF 1
Anakin7 Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 A response by 1 non LDS individual and Church on the unmerited favor explanation as presented by coolrok7 and others christians who present it as well - http://www.donimon.org/graceunmeritedfavor.html In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted July 13, 2015 Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) Also from a Non LDS Christian on Faith and Merit [Hugh Rice] - http://users.ox.ac.uk/~dhrice/Faith%20and%20Merit.pdf In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited July 13, 2015 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 See but they see not, hear but they hear not. Thanks for avoiding the responses. As you would say - "I am not convinced". In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Vance Posted July 14, 2015 Posted July 14, 2015 Correction: Anyone who claims to be a believer in Jesus Christ while accepting a distorted version of the Gospel (listening to/believing the lies of false prophets against the counsel of Biblical teaching) is in jeopardy of not really having a faith that enables one to be saved.On this, we can agree. False prophets like Martin Luther and John Calvin. 1
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