Tribune Op Ed: Section 132 In Seminary This Week

[Teancum]

I a sense yes. I do have the Gift of the Holy Ghost. There are not many people who have that in the world. I am one of the lucky few.

 

 

Bingo.  How wonderful it is to be so special.

[Mystery Meat]

Calling someone's approach to find truth and heretical seems fairly condemning to me.

 

Well its not. I believe there are many people who have embraced heretical views who I will gladly embrace in paradise. I do not doubt that I hold heretical views. Don't take offense because I think you are just like the rest of us: subject to the fall and being wrong and even deceived by the devil.

[ttribe]

Probably as many as I got in my mission. But no it is not a condemnation. It is a judgment. There is a difference. You have accused me of a superiority complex, AKA pride. One that it is equally heinous. Yet, I know that is not a condemnation from you. It is a judgment. And you are entitled to make it.

 

[sigh]  I did no such thing.  Let's reason this out - Do you believe that the answer you believe to be from God to be true and correct while others' (whose are contradictory) are incorrect?  You seem to be saying "Yes."  By definition, then, you believe your answer is superior to all others.  It's just a fact of logic.  It has nothing to do with a "superiority complex."

[Mystery Meat]

Bingo.  How wonderful it is to be so special.

 

Special is not the word I would use. Lucky seems to fit the bill much better. I honestly don't think I deserve it. Especially not when compared to others.

 

Lucky me.

 

Truly.

[Mystery Meat]

As I said to Nehor I say to you. Further discussion is a waste of time. You, Nehor, LDS persons.... and this based on what the LDS Church teaches... believe you have some special channel to God that other honest faithful people do not have. Thus your so called witness trumps all.... other spiritual experiences, evidence, reason, rational thinking and so on.

 

And I understand. I have been where you are. I used to say and think the same thing.  At times I long to have that back. On the other hand I don't long for it.  It is a insular approach to seeking what may be truth in my opinion. And it can be very damaging.   But if you are happy then great as long as your approach does not harm others.

 

It is not insular at all. True spiritual experiences come from external forces; ones that cannot be attributed to mortal reasoning and understanding. There is nothing insular about communion with the Holy Ghost. Not to mention damaging. 

[The Nehor]

As I said to Nehor I say to you. Further discussion is a waste of time. You, Nehor, LDS persons.... and this based on what the LDS Church teaches... believe you have some special channel to God that other honest faithful people do not have. Thus your so called witness trumps all.... other spiritual experiences, evidence, reason, rational thinking and so on.

 

And I understand. I have been where you are. I used to say and think the same thing.  At times I long to have that back. On the other hand I don't long for it.  It is a insular approach to seeking what may be truth in my opinion. And it can be very damaging.   But if you are happy then great as long as your approach does not harm others.

 

I don't believe it. I am convinced of it and I honestly want everyone else to have it too. I spent several years doing almost nothing but trying to convince people to join me in my special eliteness. I want to give what I have. I am not sitting up on a pedestal gloating at the unenlightened bumbling through life. I want them to become more happy, more fulfilled, and enjoy communion with God.

 

I admit I may have done the pedestal thing at times but that was when I was living below my privileges in regards to the Holy Ghost and was listening to my own ego or to those devils that constantly try to convince me I am better than all others. My latest tactic is to tell the devils who do that that I may not be better than my brothers and sisters in mortality but I am doing better then them. Tends to shut them up.

[Mystery Meat]

[sigh]  I did no such thing.  Let's reason this out - Do you believe that the answer you believe to be from God to be true and correct while others' (whose are contradictory) are incorrect?  You seem to be saying "Yes."  By definition, then, you believe your answer is superior to all others.  It's just a fact of logic.  It has nothing to do with a "superiority complex."

 

That is what I am saying. I qualified earlier by saying I believed it was superior in as much as it was based in truth. Not all statements or testimonies are equal. Some have to be superior. I have tasted of the fruit of my spiritual experiences and I am left to trust them.

[Mystery Meat]

I don't believe it. I am convinced of it and I honestly want everyone else to have it too. I spent several years doing almost nothing but trying to convince people to join me in my special eliteness. I want to give what I have. I am not sitting up on a pedestal gloating at the unenlightened bumbling through life. I want them to become more happy, more fulfilled, and enjoy communion with God.

 

I admit I may have done the pedestal thing at times but that was when I was living below my privileges in regards to the Holy Ghost and was listening to my own ego or to those devils that constantly try to convince me I am better than all others. My latest tactic is to tell the devils who do that that I may not be better than my brothers and sisters in mortality but I am doing better then them. Tends to shut them up.

 

This.

 

I have had an outpouring of the Spirit that is so much different from the past. I went through a ten year period of my life were the heavens were literally closed to me. Part of that was my own fault; part of it was a divine trial I have received confirmation is over. 

 

I am grateful to the Lord for letting me experiences life without the Spirit so that I could recognize its influence with undoubting confidence.

[Kenngo1969]

... I have to admit I often envy the dead. In many cases their struggles are behind them while I struggle on in a life filled with pain, loneliness, and dreariness. I don't know why I have lived as long as I have while others doing much more good (and much more evil) are taken. I do trust that God has His reasons.

I often feel the same way.

[Teancum]

Well its not. I believe there are many people who have embraced heretical views who I will gladly embrace in paradise. I do not doubt that I hold heretical views. Don't take offense because I think you are just like the rest of us: subject to the fall and being wrong and even deceived by the devil.

 

Well hey I am a pretty loving and forgiving guy who is just trying to find his way in the world after all he held dear has fallen apart. I would be happy to give you a hug if we and up in paradise together.

 

Sorry if I am at times strident. I am honestly seeking.

[Mystery Meat]

Well hey I am a pretty loving and forgiving guy who is just trying to find his way in the world after all he held dear has fallen apart. I would be happy to give you a hug if we and up in paradise together.

 

Sorry if I am at times strident. I am honestly seeking.

 

Right back at you.

[Mystery Meat]

Well hey I am a pretty loving and forgiving guy who is just trying to find his way in the world after all he held dear has fallen apart. I would be happy to give you a hug if we and up in paradise together.

 

Sorry if I am at times strident. I am honestly seeking.

 

Also, I understand to a certain degree what you are going through. While my testimony has not bee turned upside down per se, there were times where it came close. Over the past ten years there have been plenty of times why I wondered why I was alone. I hope your journey ends up being much like my mine, where in the end, you are able to understand the Lord's will.

[Teancum]

Also, I understand to a certain degree what you are going through. While my testimony has not bee turned upside down per se, there were times where it came close. Over the past ten years there have been plenty of times why I wondered why I was alone. I hope your journey ends up being much like my mine, where in the end, you are able to understand the Lord's will.

Thank you.

[Sleeper Cell]

1:  The only way you have dealt with it is at you believe your witness is superior to others.  There is no other conclusion.  I am not asking you to believe their testimony. I am asking you to think about why yours is superior to theirs in your view.

 

 

Perhaps because first hand is better than hearsay.  

 

Of course, there are members of other faiths who would say the same to me about my witness.  And I don’t find it offensive, per se, when they do.  For that matter, I don’t expect them to reject their personal witness and accept mine,  just on my say so.   

 

And thus it boils down to this. You and LDS seekers have the spirit. So you are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

Got it.

What is inherently offensive about someone believing he is right and that those who disagree with him are wrong?  

 

For that matter, having the Spirit does not imply that you think you are better than those who don’t.   IMO, having the Spirit implies that you do not think you are better than everyone else.  Merely better than you would have been without the Spirit.    

Edited April 5, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

[JLHPROF]

This leads to the question if we ever were "in order". The Denver Snuffer, Rock Waterman, Tim Malone and Daymon Smith folks out there argue that the church has been "under condemnation" or "out of order" practically from the very begining.

 

My opinion, and it is just my opinion, is that the Church was in near perfect order (even if the saints weren't) when ALL the laws and ordinances necessary for exaltation were finally revealed, in place, in practice, and men holding the authority to continue these things were properly called and ordained.

This happened before Joseph died, although under later Presidents some administrative and organizational things had to be systematized.

 

Every one of these laws and ordinances (and doctrinal teachings attached to them) that have been disavowed, altered, or ceased has put us a step out of order with what God revealed to man.  For just one example, when God withdrew consecration because we weren't capable of living it correctly, we lost that blessing and some of the connected doctrine.  The authority needed to live it remained but our inability/refusal to keep that law put us out of order.

 

God WILL set his Church in order before Christ returns to rule and reign.  The Church will take the gospel to ALL nations, and then those who are willing to be completely faithful will be selected OUT of the Church.

All that has been altered that is required will be required again.  All that has been changed will be put back.  All that has ceased will begin again.  The gospel of Christ as restored through Joseph Smith and expounded upon and systematized by his successors.

[rockpond]

My opinion, and it is just my opinion, is that the Church was in near perfect order (even if the saints weren't) when ALL the laws and ordinances necessary for exaltation were finally revealed, in place, in practice, and men holding the authority to continue these things were properly called and ordained.

This happened before Joseph died, although under later Presidents some administrative and organizational things had to be systematized.

 

Every one of these laws and ordinances (and doctrinal teachings attached to them) that have been disavowed, altered, or ceased has put us a step out of order with what God revealed to man.  For just one example, when God withdrew consecration because we weren't capable of living it correctly, we lost that blessing and some of the connected doctrine.  The authority needed to live it remained but our inability/refusal to keep that law put us out of order.

 

God WILL set his Church in order before Christ returns to rule and reign.  The Church will take the gospel to ALL nations, and then those who are willing to be completely faithful will be selected OUT of the Church.

All that has been altered that is required will be required again.  All that has been changed will be put back.  All that has ceased will begin again.  The gospel of Christ as restored through Joseph Smith and expounded upon and systematized by his successors.

 

You and I don't agree on everything but I really admire the integrity of your point of view & belief system.

[JLHPROF]

You and I don't agree on everything but I really admire the integrity of your point of view & belief system.

 

Thank you.  I appreciate that.  I find your opinions likewise very consistent, even though I completely disagree with the more liberal ones.

[Gray]

Yes.

 

A strange position! First the idea that they would be at odds, and second the idea that something  as fundamental as conscience would be overturned by something else. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by Gray

[The Nehor]

A strange position! First the idea that they would be at odds, and second the idea that something  as fundamental as conscience would be overturned by something else.

Conscience is useful but more flawed then direct communication with God. Go figure.

[Gray]

Conscience is useful but more flawed then direct communication with God. Go figure.

 

Conscience is the fundamental building block of any relationship with God, and indeed, in living a moral life. I would say it's more likely you've gotten your signals crossed than it is likely a real revelation has been received in violation of conscience. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by Gray

[JLHPROF]

Conscience is the fundamental building block of any relationship with God, and indeed, in living a moral life. I would say it's more likely you've gotten your signals crossed than it is likely a real revelation has been received in violation of conscience. 

 

Depending on how you label/define "conscience" I would have to disagree.

[The Nehor]

Conscience is the fundamental building block of any relationship with God, and indeed, in living a moral life. I would say it's more likely you've gotten your signals crossed than it is likely a real revelation has been received in violation of conscience. 

 

I disagree. My relationship with God is founded on communication with God. As to "living a moral life" that objective seems puerile to me. Morality is vital but it is not an end in itself when happiness, power, and glory await.

 

As to getting signals crossed I would argue that your approach denies revelation more often then mine. Your measuring stick would be your own understanding and conscience. Anything else would be discarded. That sounds like idolatry of ones own self.

[Gray]

I disagree. My relationship with God is founded on communication with God. As to "living a moral life" that objective seems puerile to me. Morality is vital but it is not an end in itself when happiness, power, and glory await.

 

 

 

Sometimes I think I am very unorthodox, but then I read statements like this from orthodox people and I wonder if there is such thing as orthodoxy in Mormonism. 

 

 

 

As to getting signals crossed I would argue that your approach denies revelation more often then mine. Your measuring stick would be your own understanding and conscience. Anything else would be discarded. That sounds like idolatry of ones own self.

 

That is all that anyone ever has access to, like it or not. 

 

I certainly don't worship myself. I confess I do idolize goodness. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by Gray