Will The Dead Be Tested?

[teddyaware]

Death is a separation. The death we usually think of is the separation of a spirit from its mortal body, so in that sense it is the death/separation of the spirit from its mortal body as well as the death/separation of the mortal body from its spirit. That's what Jacob was talking about in verse 10.

In verse 12 Jacob was talking about spirits in spirit prison, which are those who were separated from the righteous, so that is the type of death/separation he was talking about then.

What sounds strange to me is how you seem to be talking about the spirit as if it is mortal, which it never is, although it can be separated from a mortal body.

I agree that our "probationary" state ends at our resurrection, but our spirits are not at any time "mortal" even when our spirit has separated from its mortal body. I think I understand what you mean now, though. You consider the entire time our spirit is separated from its body as the mortal state, even though the spirit is still eternal during that time. Just semantics I think and I just don't think of it that way.

 

It's perfectly obvious Jacob is not saying the spirit can die in exactly the same sense the body dies (loses all consciousness and wastes away till ultimate dissolution). Jacob is saying the spirit can die, in a manner of speaking, when the Spirit of God -- the source of all life and light -- is totally withdrawn from a human intelligence (as occurs in the case of the sons of perdition) who has committed the unpardonable sin. When a spirit suffers total spiritual death, though it continues on in existence as a thinking entity, in a very real sense it dies spiritually because such a being has totally separated himself from the source of divine life, light and love. As the Book of Mormon teaches us, for those who suffer this fate it is "as though there had been no redemption made."

 

Because you misconstrued my original point (that life in the spirit world is but a continuation of the mortal probationary state) we have been involved in this useless and unnecessary exercise. I have participated on this board long enough for you to know there is no way I would believe spiritual death is a death in the same sense as the death of the body. Not even a Primary child would make such a blatant doctrinal mistake. Yet you somehow missed the obvious meaning of my words and jumped to the erroneous conclusion that I did make such a ridiculous mistake.

 

Again, life after death in the spirit world is a continuation of the mortal probationary state we experience while our spirits inhabit our temporal bodies on earth, and that's why the Gospel is preached to the dead and why the LDS Church performs proxy Gospel ordinances for the dead. Whether on earth or the spirit world, as long as humans live in jeopardy of falling from saving grace or never obtaining that saving grace in the first place, they are living in the mortal probationary state. The human family will not become IMMORTAL until the day of resurrection. Now that we have already received our bodies of flesh and bone, there is no way nor possibility of going back to life as it was when we were spirits in the preexistence. As the prophet Jacob taught, now that we're here we have no other choice but to move forward or risk ending up in hell with Lucifer and his fallen angels.  

Edited March 18, 2015 by teddyaware

[Ahab]

Because you misconstrued my original point (that life in the spirit world is but a continuation of the mortal probationary state) we have been involved in this useless and unnecessary exercise.

No, I was just stating that spirits are eternal, after you said our spirits are mortal, and I for one have not found it a useless or unnecessary exercise. In fact it has helped me to think more about the definitions of mortal vs immortal.

Again, life after death in the spirit world is a continuation of the mortal probationary state...

...or in other words, the state of separation/death. Edited March 18, 2015 by Ahab

[teddyaware]

No, I was just stating that are spirits are eternal, after you said our spirits are mortal, and I for one have not found it a useless or unnecessary exercise. In fact it has helped me to think more about the definitions of mortal vs immortal.

...or in other words, the state of separation/death.

 

Perhaps saying "the dead are still mortal" is a less than elegant way of saying the dead are still in a mortal probationary state. But there is no doubt about it, even after death the dead still have a mortal nature. Think of all the people in the scriptures who were raised from the dead? In just the Bible alone we have the widow of Zarephath's son, the Shunamite's son. the man tossed into Elisha's tomb, the widow of Nain's son, the daughter of Jairus, Lazarus, Tabitha and Eutychus. All of these were raised from the dead, but in each and every case they were only raised once again into mortal bodies because their fallen spirits were incapable of supporting and sustaining immortal resurrected bodies. So as these individuals amply demonstrate -- whether a mortal human first lives for a time  and then dies, spends a period of time in the spirit world only to rise from the dead into a mortal body once again, only to die and again enter the world of departed spirits, etc, -- each of these individuals, regardless of where they were, were still only in a state of mortality because they still died after being raised from the dead. Theoretically speaking, without a glorious resurrection into immortality, the best a departed spirit can hope for is an endless cycle of death to mortal resurrection to death...

Edited March 18, 2015 by teddyaware

[DarkScythe]

that hardly sounds fair

 

 

God will give all of us a chance in the end, it is how we use it the key.

[Ahab]

Perhaps saying "the dead are still mortal" is a less than elegant way of saying the dead are still in a mortal probationary state. But there is no doubt about it, even after death the dead still have a mortal nature. Think of all the people in the scriptures who were raised from the dead? In just the Bible alone we have the widow of Zarephath's son, the Shunamite's son. the man tossed into Elisha's tomb, the widow of Nain's son, the daughter of Jairus, Lazarus, Tabitha and Eutychus. All of these were raised from the dead, but in each and every case they were only raised once again into mortal bodies because their fallen spirits were incapable of supporting and sustaining immortal resurrected bodies. So as these individuals amply demonstrate -- whether a mortal human first lives for a time and then dies, spends a period of time in the spirit world only to rise from the dead into a mortal body once again, only to die and again enter the world of departed spirits, etc, -- each of these individuals, regardless of where they were, were still only in a state of mortality because they still died after being raised from the dead. Theoretically speaking, without a glorious resurrection into immortality, the best a departed spirit can hope for is an endless cycle of death to mortal resurrection to death...

I think I get the idea now but I still tend to think our spirits are immortal/eternal even though our mortal bodies (as a whole) are not and won't be until they are also immortalized just as our immortal/eternal spirits now are.

But I do agree with you that the entire state of things now and even after we die can be thought of as our mortal state, or the state wherein we are subject to mortality, as long as our bodies (other than our spirit bodies) remain mortal.

So I see it like this, for myself:

Mortal state = the state when I am subject to the death/separation of my mortal body from my immortal spirit, including the time my immortal spirit lives in my mortal body and also the time my immortal spirit is separated from my mortal body.

Immortal state = the state when my mortal body has been resurrected as an immortal body and my immortal spirit is then joined to it never again to be separated from it/subject to death.

Death still = separation of a spirit from a body, whether it's a separation of a spirit from a mortal body or a separation of a spirit from the immortal spirit of God

[Storm Rider]

Not right, either.

Some people apparently haven't heard about what temples are for.

We're all accountable for only what we have heard, though.

 

and what do you think the included phrase meant, ",,,but their heart and their actions are judged on the degree of truth they had in this life"?  Some people don't read, but just have knee jerk reactions to their own thoughts rather than actually attempt to understand what others are saying.

 

Just to clarify, God will judge each of us based upon the degree of truth, the light and knowledge, that we each gained in this life.  All will have the ordinances of exaltation through temple work, but each individual will be judged.  

 

I don't see how this is unfair?  What does fair mean to you, Duncan?

[Duncan]

and what do you think the included phrase meant, ",,,but their heart and their actions are judged on the degree of truth they had in this life"?  Some people don't read, but just have knee jerk reactions to their own thoughts rather than actually attempt to understand what others are saying.

 

Just to clarify, God will judge each of us based upon the degree of truth, the light and knowledge, that we each gained in this life.  All will have the ordinances of exaltation through temple work, but each individual will be judged.  

 

I don't see how this is unfair?  What does fair mean to you, Duncan?

 

 

if you leave out the part about being taught in the next life and God giving everyone the same plan of salvation, happiness, required faithfulness, discipleship, being tested like Abraham to see who we will serve and not just lip service-to me that's fair. I can't buy into this idea of having God place us here and having no access to Christ and his saving ordinances and then we unwittingly develop attitudes and then in the next life are confronted with the idea that this was all a test and they fail miserably obviously OR people living here and are know of Jesus but not much or are apathetic and then in the next life accept the gospel and are exalted without being tested to see if they really are devoted to Christ or aren't. One thing that mystifies me is why some people won't accept the gospel here but will in the next life, like what has changed/ and why God set it so that 99% of his children have no access to the truth

[VideoGameJunkie]

Do people who die of drug overdoses go to spirit prison? I ask cuz I had a friend in high school and college that died of a drug overdose at age 21 and he was a really friendly and nice guy.

[JLHPROF]

Do people who die of drug overdoses go to spirit prison? I ask cuz I had a friend in high school and college that died of a drug overdose at age 21 and he was a really friendly and nice guy.

 

How would anyone know?

The spirit prison is for those who didn't have the gospel in mortality to be ministered to and taught.  If that applies to your friend then I suppose that's where he would have gone.

[Ahab]

if you leave out the part about being taught in the next life and God giving everyone the same plan of salvation, happiness, required faithfulness, discipleship, being tested like Abraham to see who we will serve and not just lip service-to me that's fair. I can't buy into this idea of having God place us here and having no access to Christ and his saving ordinances and then we unwittingly develop attitudes and then in the next life are confronted with the idea that this was all a test and they fail miserably obviously OR people living here and are know of Jesus but not much or are apathetic and then in the next life accept the gospel and are exalted without being tested to see if they really are devoted to Christ or aren't. One thing that mystifies me is why some people won't accept the gospel here but will in the next life, like what has changed/ and why God set it so that 99% of his children have no access to the truth

More people than you realize hear at least some of the gospel, even if they never hear about Jesus Christ. And most people receive faith/an assurance from Christ and repent/turn away from things that the light of Christ tells them are bad, even if they are not familiar with the words/terms "faith" or "repentance". The technical terms/language we use isn't really very important at all, and what matters is what those words refer to.

More knowledge and more understanding is more beneficial, of course, but we're more interested in sharing ideas and feelings than we are with certain words.

So suppose you now ask or wonder what it is that someone needs to learn to be able to be "saved"? Or what does someone need to reject to be accountable for their own "sins"? And suppose someone never got the memo that there was someone who would forgive them for their sins as long as they did what we usually refer to as "repent" whether or not they refer to that act as repentance? Do you suppose that person would scoff at the idea or think something like that would be good if it were true?

We are always accountable for what we think and how we behave wherever we are and that will never change.

[Calm]

Do people who die of drug overdoses go to spirit prison? I ask cuz I had a friend in high school and college that died of a drug overdose at age 21 and he was a really friendly and nice guy.

Remember there are two parts to the Spirit Prison (so called in my opinion because of limitations, not because it is primarily a place of punishment); one part is for those who have not be taught yet, the other for those taught but who refuse to accept the Atonement at that point (subsection Hell or Spirit Hell if you prefer to differentiate it from what the sons of Perdition go to that we refer to as outer darkness but scripture at times refers to as hell).

[teddyaware]

I think I get the idea now but I still tend to think our spirits are immortal/eternal even though our mortal bodies (as a whole) are not and won't be until they are also immortalized just as our immortal/eternal spirits now are.

But I do agree with you that the entire state of things now and even after we die can be thought of as our mortal state, or the state wherein we are subject to mortality, as long as our bodies (other than our spirit bodies) remain mortal.

So I see it like this, for myself:

Mortal state = the state when I am subject to the death/separation of my mortal body from my immortal spirit, including the time my immortal spirit lives in my mortal body and also the time my immortal spirit is separated from my mortal body.

Immortal state = the state when my mortal body has been resurrected as an immortal body and my immortal spirit is then joined to it never again to be separated from it/subject to death.

Death still = separation of a spirit from a body, whether it's a separation of a spirit from a mortal body or a separation of a spirit from the immortal spirit of God

 

I agree. I apologize to you for saying our dialogue was a waste of time,because our ultimate agreement proves it wasn't a waste of time after all . All the best...

[The Nehor]

Remember there are two parts to the Spirit Prison (so called in my opinion because of limitations, not because it is primarily a place of punishment); one part is for those who have not be taught yet, the other for those taught but who refuse to accept the Atonement at that point (subsection Hell or Spirit Hell if you prefer to differentiate it from what the sons of Perdition go to that we refer to as outer darkness but scripture at times refers to as hell).

On what do you base this? I have seen no teaching that hell is mitigated until you are taught the gospel. Well, I have heard the teaching but it always comes from people who want hell to not be so bad for someone and they have no doctrinal support for it.

[The Nehor]

Do people who die of drug overdoses go to spirit prison? I ask cuz I had a friend in high school and college that died of a drug overdose at age 21 and he was a really friendly and nice guy.

Probably yes.

[Calm]

On what do you base this? I have seen no teaching that hell is mitigated until you are taught the gospel. Well, I have heard the teaching but it always comes from people who want hell to not be so bad for someone and they have no doctrinal support for it.

I may be reading into it my own ideas. The idea is more from the Gospel Principles manual, not scriptures.

[Calm]

Notice that they do not mention suffering in the first division of Spirit Prison. I would assume it is probably much like earth as far as emotional suffering through in the sense of feeling pain and discomfort due to remorse, etc.:

"The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom."

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

Edited March 18, 2015 by calmoriah

[Beach]

If one thinks that his salvation/exaltation is based on works and time then this cenerio is a problem.

[Mormonmaniac]

If one thinks that his salvation/exaltation is based on works and time then this cenerio is a problem.

What do you mean

[JLHPROF]

If one thinks that his salvation/exaltation is based on works and time then this cenerio is a problem.

 

To what are you referring?

[pogi]

If one thinks that his salvation/exaltation is based on works and time then this cenerio is a problem.

 

Say Whaaaat?

 

(I don't really know what you guys are talking about, but I'd thought I'd jump on the "what do you mean?" bandwagon for fun.) 

Edited March 30, 2015 by pogi

[VideoGameJunkie]

I wish we could do temple work for our friends. Both of my best friend's dads have passed on and I wish I was able to do the work for them when they reach the appropriate age. The only problem is I doubt either of my friends would approve of me doing the work for their dads, but I have a feeling that their dads are in the spirit world waiting for the work to be done.