Use Of The Urim And Thummim In Masonic Tradition

[Uncle Dale]

I'm intrigued by a passage on pages 32-33 of Clyde R. Forsberg's 2004 book, Equal Rites:

 

 

...

A breastplate with two stone lenses affixed to a golden bow or chain is the

Masonic representation of the device (a slight but important departure

from the Bible). In Masonic encyclopedias, one can easily find the Urim

and Thummim that Smith used, a device reserved for "the High Priest

alone, for the purpose of obtaining a revelation of the will of God in

matters of great moment." [19]  {footnote 19 not transcribed}

 

 

Does anybody have a pre-1830 illustrated Masonic Encyclopedia handy?

 

If so, would you mind relating to us how the Masonic U&T engraving

(with two stone lenses affixed to a metal bow) differs from the U&T

frequently mentioned by LDS scholars and historians?

 

Here is a typical (post-1830) depiction of a Masonic High Priest (center),

but, unfortunately, no LDS-like U&T can be seen in the illustration:

 

 

 

Thanks,

UD

Edited February 10, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Robert F. Smith]

I see that you still buy into the non-connection between the Israelite Urim & Thummim and the Nephite interpreters.  Flashy but insubstantial folklore.

 

The illustration you provide, Dale, is primarily focused on the priestly regalia of Judaism's High Priest, also including the seven-branched menorah.

 

Masonry is dependent upon the Renaissance Hermetic and Rosicrucian worldview, and Hugh Nibley traced the Masonic rites to St. Bernard (1090-1153), and to the ordinances of the medieval Knights Templars and Hospitalers (of St. John, which still exist as the Knights of Malta), which gives us a Near Eastern nexus.  See Nibley, "Jerusalem: In Christianity," Encyclopaedia Judaica, IX (1971), columns 1572-1573 (FARMS Reprint N-JER, 4-5), and "Christian Envy of the Temple," Jewish Quarterly Review, 50 (1959):97-123; (1960):229-240 (FARMS Reprint N-CHR), also available in When the Lights Went Out (1970), 55-88.

 

If you are really interested in Freemasonry, there are several serious sources available:

 

George Oliver, Antiquities of Freemasonry, Comprising Illustrations of the Five Grand Periods of Masonry, rev. ed. (1899); 1st ed. (1854/1855) – copy in the RLDS Archives Antiquarian Book Collection, ABC 555 (Independence, Missouri).

Douglas Knoop and G. P. Jones, The Genesis of Freemasonry (1947)

Marsha K. M. Schuchard, "Freemasonry, Secret Societies, and the Continuity of the Occult Traditions in English Literature," doctoral dissertation (Univ. of Texas, May 1975)

Michael W. Homer, “‘Similarity of Priesthood in Masonry: The Relationship Between Freemasonry and Mormonism,” Dialogue, 27/3 (Fall 1994):1-113.

Mervin B. Hogan, "A Mormon-Masonic Bibliography," "The Cryptic Cable Tow Between Mormonism and Freemasonry" (1970), "The Milieu of Mormonism and Freemasonry at Nauvoo: An Interpretation" (1975), "The Confrontation of Grand Master Abraham Jonas and John Cook Bennett at Nauvoo" (1976), "The Explosive Rupture Between the Grand Lodge of Illinois and the Mormon Lodges of Illinois and Iowa in 1843" (1976), "The Initial Interfaces Between Mormonism and Freemasonry" (1976), "What of Mormonism and Freemasonry?" (1976), "The Erection and Dedication of the Nauvoo Masonic Temple" (1976), "Joseph Smith's Theology" (1972), "Some Basic Facts Pertaining to Mormonism and Utah Freemasonry" (1976), "Freemasonry and The Book of Mormon" (1976), etc., which are available through the Special Collections of the Marriott Library, University of Utah.

[Uncle Dale]

I see that you still buy into the non-connection between the Israelite Urim & Thummim and the Nephite interpreters.  Flashy but insubstantial folklore.

 

The illustration you provide, Dale, is primarily focused on the priestly regalia of Judaism's High Priest, also including the seven-branched menorah.

 

Masonry is dependent upon the Renaissance Hermetic and Rosicrucian worldview, and Hugh Nibley traced the Masonic rites to St. Bernard (1090-1153), and to the ordinances of the medieval Knights Templars and Hospitalers (of St. John, which still exist as the Knights of Malta), which gives us a Near Eastern nexus.  See Nibley, "Jerusalem: In Christianity," Encyclopaedia Judaica, IX (1971), columns 1572-1573 (FARMS Reprint N-JER, 4-5), and "Christian Envy of the Temple," Jewish Quarterly Review, 50 (1959):97-123; (1960):229-240 (FARMS Reprint N-CHR), also available in When the Lights Went Out (1970), 55-88.

 

If you are really interested in Freemasonry, there are several serious sources available:

 

George Oliver, Antiquities of Freemasonry, Comprising Illustrations of the Five Grand Periods of Masonry, rev. ed. (1899); 1st ed. (1854/1855) – copy in the RLDS Archives Antiquarian Book Collection, ABC 555 (Independence, Missouri).

Douglas Knoop and G. P. Jones, The Genesis of Freemasonry (1947)

Marsha K. M. Schuchard, "Freemasonry, Secret Societies, and the Continuity of the Occult Traditions in English Literature," doctoral dissertation (Univ. of Texas, May 1975)

Michael W. Homer, “‘Similarity of Priesthood in Masonry: The Relationship Between Freemasonry and Mormonism,” Dialogue, 27/3 (Fall 1994):1-113.

Mervin B. Hogan, "A Mormon-Masonic Bibliography," "The Cryptic Cable Tow Between Mormonism and Freemasonry" (1970), "The Milieu of Mormonism and Freemasonry at Nauvoo: An Interpretation" (1975), "The Confrontation of Grand Master Abraham Jonas and John Cook Bennett at Nauvoo" (1976), "The Explosive Rupture Between the Grand Lodge of Illinois and the Mormon Lodges of Illinois and Iowa in 1843" (1976), "The Initial Interfaces Between Mormonism and Freemasonry" (1976), "What of Mormonism and Freemasonry?" (1976), "The Erection and Dedication of the Nauvoo Masonic Temple" (1976), "Joseph Smith's Theology" (1972), "Some Basic Facts Pertaining to Mormonism and Utah Freemasonry" (1976), "Freemasonry and The Book of Mormon" (1976), etc., which are available through the Special Collections of the Marriott Library, University of Utah.

 

 

Do any of those sources reproduce the engraving of two

stones set in a metal bow, as (allegedly) published in pre-1830

Masonic encyclopedias?

 

I think Forsberg is pulling my leg on that one. If such a drawing,

painting, lithograph, or whatever exists, I should think that I

would have heard of it from more sources than his "Equal Rites."

 

Correct?

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

Do any of those sources reproduce the engraving of two

stones set in a metal bow, as (allegedly) published in pre-1830

Masonic encyclopedias?

 

I think Forsberg is pulling my leg on that one. If such a drawing,

painting, lithograph, or whatever exists, I should think that I

would have heard of it from more sources than his "Equal Rites."

 

Correct?

 

UD

Too bad Mervin Hogan is no longer with us, because he would know.  Did Forsberg cite a source on that?  If so, that would be the place to go.

[Uncle Dale]

Too bad Mervin Hogan is no longer with us, because he would know.  Did Forsberg cite a source on that?  If so, that would be the place to go.

 

 

A great deal of Hogan's writings (published and manuscript) are on

file in the Marriott Special Collections. I think that any excerpts from

Masonic encyclopedias (concerning oracular stones) would be in that

collection -- and nothing like an engraving has come to my knowledge.

 

Forsberg is typically sloppy in his sourcing and quoting. He referred to

Oliver Cowdery as a card-carrying Royal Arch Mason, without a source.

And the general citation he provided did not lead back to any testimony

of Oliver having been Royal Arch -- he was likely a young Entered Appr.,

let in early on his father's membership, and never far advanced.

 

But, back to stones set in a bow (whether attached to a breastplate or

not) -- I would be VERY interested in seeing any published depiction

of such an allegedly antique oracular device, prior to mid-1829. After

that, the "spectacles" accounts multiply among Palmyra area witnesses,

and I'm not interested in that, so much as prior, similar depictions.

 

Call it whatever it merits being called (and LDS General Authorities have

used the term Urim & Thummim) -- I'm curious to see examples of any

DOCUMENTED predecessors, or very similar relics.

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

..........................................................

But, back to stones set in a bow (whether attached to a breastplate or

not) -- I would be VERY interested in seeing any published depiction

of such an allegedly antique oracular device, prior to mid-1829. After

that, the "spectacles" accounts multiply among Palmyra area witnesses,

and I'm not interested in that, so much as prior, similar depictions.

 

Call it whatever it merits being called (and LDS General Authorities have

used the term Urim & Thummim) -- I'm curious to see examples of any

DOCUMENTED predecessors, or very similar relics.

 

UD

You may of course insist on using incorrect terminology.  This sort of thing happens all the time, and we are able to trace the sources and reasons for such mistakes, but why perpetuate them?  Anyone, including General Authorities, can make mistakes.  Our responsibility is to use the proper terminology -- provided we know it, and you and I know better.

[Uncle Dale]

You may of course insist on using incorrect terminology.  This sort of thing happens all the time, and we are able to trace the sources and reasons for such mistakes, but why perpetuate them?  Anyone, including General Authorities, can make mistakes.  Our responsibility is to use the proper terminology -- provided we know it, and you and I know better.

 

Well, of course if the President of the High Priesthood of the

CofJCofLDS, (or, even the President of the Twelve) were to

make a notice of that particular correction in an official Church

publication, then I could rest more comfortable in disagreeing

with terminology employed by past high-ranking GAs.

 

But, I think all of that would open an unwanted door -- for

criticism from the outside. People like myself should exercise

a bit of conservatism, and let people like yourself do the

"heavy lifting" on this correcting of the Lord's Anointed.

 

However, I'll do my best to try and follow in your footsteps.

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

Well, of course if the President of the High Priesthood of the

CofJCofLDS, (or, even the President of the Twelve) were to

make a notice of that particular correction in an official Church

publication, then I could rest more comfortable in disagreeing

with terminology employed by past high-ranking GAs.

 

But, I think all of that would open an unwanted door -- for

criticism from the outside. People like myself should exercise

a bit of conservatism, and let people like yourself do the

"heavy lifting" on this correcting of the Lord's Anointed.

 

However, I'll do my best to try and follow in your footsteps.

 

UD

Then we might both fall in the ditch.

 

My experience has been only slight, but I have communicated with the Brethren by letter a few times in my life.  I have found them to be quite humble, responsive, businesslike, and kind.  They seem to know their limitations, and do not put much stock in off the wall interpretations of this or that aspect of Holy Writ.  They used to have Hugh Nibley come up to SLC and brief them on specific topics in private.  They seem quite able to distinguish between the important and the ephemeral.

[ALarson]

Interesting topic Uncle Dale!

 

I found this about the Masonic beliefs regarding the Urim and Thummim:

 

Masonic Legend (taught during the 13, 14 and 21 degrees ceremonies of Masonry) and Kabbalistic tradition state that Urim and Thummin were part of the recovered artifacts taken from Solomon's Temple after Hiram Abiff was murdered while protecting the temple treasury. According to the legend, Urim and Thummin and other recovered treasure were placed back in the temple treasury.

 

[Uncle Dale]

Interesting topic Uncle Dale!

 

I found this about the Masonic beliefs regarding the Urim and Thummim:

Yes, I have seen this as well, and suppose that there are pre-1830 references

in Masonic publications. The level of detail communicated in the first three

(blue lodge) degrees, of course, differs from what is included in Royal Arch

ritual and lore.

Freemasons themselves will not discuss some of these matters with a non-mason,

or with one who has not been through the particular ritual being referred to -- so

it can be a little difficult to obtain full, accurate, reliable information.

Still, I'd like very much to see a pre-1830 Masonic depiction of the U&T. Not

much of their popular literature was illustrated, that far back, but there may

have been "in-house" publications (like certain tracing-boards) which were

never intended to be seen by non-Masonic viewers. Possibly Fosberg is

making reference to something of that nature.

The Baruch passages I supplied (in another thread) have the sacred items

preserved from Solomon's day, appropriated by angels at the time of the

Babylonian Captivity, and thus preserved for a later day. If there was only

a single U&T ever fabricated in ancient Israel, this fact (?) in the quasi

scriptural text would seem to preclude Lehi or Mulek carrying the U&T

to the New World.

The absence of urim and thummim language in the Nephite Record

at first consideration, appears to support the conclusion that no such

oracular device was taken across the oceans by those Israelites.

Nevertheless, decades (centuries?) of U&T terminology was injected

into LDS / RLDS instruction -- so the matter remains a cloudy one in

many saintly minds, I suppose.

Somebody may yet come across Fosberg's Masonic encyclopedia,

or an early Masonic Bible, containing a U&T engraving -- if so, I

hope they will remember this posting, and share that discovery. The

place to begin the search would be in illustrated Masonic literature

in Europe -- particularly from France during the Napoleonic period,

and related to the Initiated Brothers of Asia (especially the 6th degree).

UD

Edited February 12, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Uncle Dale]

...

They seem quite able to distinguish between the important and the ephemeral.

 

No doubt you are correct in that estimation, friend.

 

My one substantial personal meeting with such an official

was with President Kimball. Decorum precluded my bringing

up anything so mundane as Book of Mormon translation.

However, if I had been so bold as to ask him what I've asked

you, I'm sure his answer would have been: "But, Dale, the

President of your church, W. Wallace Smith, whom I recently

had the honor of visiting, at his home in Independence,

would doubtless tell you the same things you read in our

Church publications."

 

And, had that imaginary portion of the audience occurred,

he would have been correct. The RLDS texts in 1979 were

saying the same things as were the Mormon ones, as to

such oddities as urims and thummims (not to mention

seraphims).

 

Oh well -- we each do our best to comprehend things that

are obviously not the concerns of the average citizen of

planet earth.

 

UD

 

ps -- Tell me more about Father Adam, LDS doctrine, DNA

and "transmission" -- You have an eager listener here...

Edited February 11, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Antoni]

Somebody may yet come across Fosberg's Masonic encyclopedia,

or an early Masonic Bible, containing a U&T engraving -- if so, I

hope they will remember this posting, and share that discovery. The

place to begin the search would be in illustrated Masonic literature

in Europe -- particularly from France during the Napoleonic period,

and related to the Initiated Brothers of Asia (especially the 6th degree).

UD

 

Will keep an eye out for it and any other references in my studies. I pop up to UGLE library and museum on occasion so will see what I can locate there next time I go.

[Uncle Dale]

Will keep an eye out for it and any other references in my studies. I pop up to UGLE library and museum on occasion so will see what I can locate there next time I go.

 

 

I have the feeling that Fosberg was conflating mid-19th century

Masonic publications with his own notions of what earlier writers

had thought and said -- regarding the Israelite high priests, etc.

 

The earliest encyclopedia volumes relating to Freemasonry

were published in Europe and had very few illustrations. I doubt

very, very much that there was any early 19th century U&T

illustration, such as related by Mr. Fosberg.

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

...........................................................   

 

ps -- Tell me more about Father Adam, LDS doctrine, DNA

and "transmission" -- You have an eager listener here...

Not sure what I should say that I have not already said elsewhere on this board.  Just a bit off topic here, no?

[Uncle Dale]

Not sure what I should say that I have not already said elsewhere on this board.  Just a bit off topic here, no?

 

 

I guess just one question, and then I'll be satisfied.

 

Is DNA eternal and unchanging?

 

I was once told that as I am, God Himself once was,

a miserable sinner, unworthy of salvation, save it be

for the justification provided by Divine Grace.

 

That much being accepted (provisionally, of course)

did the DNA of Eloheim's ancestors match that of our

own human species?

 

Or is it subject to evolution?

 

If subject to evolution, then did the beings of eons ago

have genetics compatible with our own -- or are we

earthlings a different species?

 

In all my viewings of LDS artwork, I have seen many, many

depictions of celestial beings -- most of whom look like

well-fed Danes. I suppose they (the divine entities) and

the blond-haired, blue-eyed earthlings (Scandinavians)

would together produce the somewhat large, but fully

human Nephilim spoken of in ancient texts.

 

Or, perhaps I have once again misunderstood celestial bodies.

 

 

UD

[telnetd]

You may of course insist on using incorrect terminology.  This sort of thing happens all the time, and we are able to trace the sources and reasons for such mistakes, but why perpetuate them?  Anyone, including General Authorities, can make mistakes.  Our responsibility is to use the proper terminology -- provided we know it, and you and I know better.

 Video removed. Do not post defamatory videos.

 

Gail

[theplains]

From A Bridge to Light (Hutchens) in the chapter called "Master Architect (12th Degree)"

 

“The older versions [of this degree] recount that the True Word was engraved

on a triangular plate of gold which was cast into a dry well; but the new versions related

that the True Word, also engraved on a golden plate, was deposited in a purposely

prepared place to be found centuries later by three masters.”

 

I couldn't find any mention of the urim and thummim there.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Uncle Dale]

 

From A Bridge to Light (Hutchens) in the chapter called "Master Architect (12th Degree)"

 

“The older versions [of this degree] recount that the True Word was engraved

on a triangular plate of gold which was cast into a dry well; but the new versions related

that the True Word, also engraved on a golden plate, was deposited in a purposely

prepared place to be found centuries later by three masters.”

 

I couldn't find any mention of the urim and thummim there.

 

Regards,

Jim

 

 

 

There appears to be some connection between the triangular plate

and the plate of gold upon which Enoch wrote, in Masonic tradition.

 

The Enoch lore which was incorporated into the Masonic degrees

(mostly in Royal Arch Freemasonry) corresponds, in part, with some

of the writings of the "magician-astrologer," John Dee -- an adviser 

to Queen Elizabeth the First. Dee would have been acquainted with

BOTH the urim and thummim traditions AND the Enoch traditions.

 

How much of his work overlapped with Masonic ritual and speculation,

I do not know. The European Masonic symbolization of the U&T among

the little-known esoteric order of the "Initiated Brothers of Asia" came

after Dee's time (as did the first verified Masonic lodges in England),

but there may have been some occult writings preserved among

the Knights Templar, which were transmitted down to Dee and also

to Masonic innovators. (That would be the place to go looking)

 

UD

Edited March 11, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[sunstoned]

 

Edited March 17, 2015 by sunstoned

[sunstoned]

dup

[Alvie J]

I'm intrigued by a passage on pages 32-33 of Clyde R. Forsberg's 2004 book, Equal Rites:

 

 

 

Does anybody have a pre-1830 illustrated Masonic Encyclopedia handy?

 

If so, would you mind relating to us how the Masonic U&T engraving

(with two stone lenses affixed to a metal bow) differs from the U&T

frequently mentioned by LDS scholars and historians?

 

Here is a typical (post-1830) depiction of a Masonic High Priest (center),

but, unfortunately, no LDS-like U&T can be seen in the illustration:

 

 

 

Thanks,

UD

If you’re really interested in the Book of Mormon and its connection to Masonry and the Rosicrucians perhaps you might look at this college research paper in which explores the Book of Mormon as a ciphered text.  It’s full of colored graphs and to pictures better help the reader discern the ciphers and their meanings. 

 

https://www.academia.edu/7892970/The_Mormon_Cipher   

[Calm]

Not quite a zombie, so will just use this one:

 

[Mike Reed]

I have found a connection of the u&t and the decipherment of texts in masonic ritual and material culture. Joe Swick will probably share it in his forthcoming book. Don Bradley may also share it in a future essay.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Mike Reed