Mystery Meat Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 I have come to the conclusion that the LDS faith at some point in the next 20 years is going to see its attendance, retention and conversion numbers drop in a large way in developed countries. The Church cannot change God's word to appease a growing and angry majority. I also think many are married (no pun intended) to their ideologies on this topic and when they see the writing on the wall (that the Church is not changing its stance on SSM) they will leave. Those of us who remain will be marginalized and vilified. Meanwhile the Church in developing countries will thrive and grow and its members will be strong and faithful leaders.
KevinG Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) A reduction in increase = collapse. You must work for the government. Seriously - I think we will always be more leavening than bread when it comes to the general population of almost any country we reside in. Your theory does fit with the pattern of wealth and corruption alternating with humility and faith in the Book of Mormon. Edited January 30, 2015 by KevinG 3
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 I agree with this assessment. And so did President Woodruff: I do not expect that more than half of us will have oil in our lamps and be prepared to enter into the marriage supper with the Bridegroom. That will be about as much as we can expect, unless we repent of our sins and turn from our follies, fooleries, and the fashions of Babylon—things which our hearts have been set upon instead of upon building up the kingdom of God. It seems to me that there will be but a remnant even of the Latter-day Saints who will be prepared to inherit eternal life and for the coming of the Bridegroom. 2
Popular Post The Nehor Posted January 30, 2015 Popular Post Posted January 30, 2015 Can we just collapse already? Either we last forever or we fail. This waffling back and forth is very undignified. 6
Mystery Meat Posted January 30, 2015 Author Posted January 30, 2015 I agree with this assessment. And so did President Woodruff: I have heard modern day Apostles say virtually the same thing. They don't believe many of us actually have testimonies. My participation on this board tends to lead me to the same conclusion. 3
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 I have heard modern day Apostles say virtually the same thing. They don't believe many of us actually have testimonies. My participation on this board tends to lead me to the same conclusion. I think testimonies are vital, but I think the word gets overused. I know many with testimonies who leave because they aren't WILLING. It is that desire and will to serve God that will keep us faithful. Our testimonies strengthen that will but they aren't the be all and end all.We have to be willing to serve God no matter what. Scriptures tell us men's hearts will fail them. That doesn't mean they will lose testimonies. It means they will fear. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 Why do you think the church will be so much more successful in developing countries than the developed? Is it all about the income/pride cycle or is there an element of education and access to information?
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 Why do you think the church will be so much more successful in developing countries than the developed? Is it all about the income/pride cycle or is there an element of education and access to information? I think it's "simple faith" vs. "skeptical/cynical". I think that is more common in developing countries, but not exclusive to them. My Grandmother had a simple faith - she just shrugged off any contradictions she came across and stubbornly kept on believing. Education is EXTREMELY valuable, but it does breed skepticism in place of faith. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 Happy Jack Wagon, I've seen what you post on the New Order Mormon board, so I wonder how long will you stay in the church?
Calm Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 Education is EXTREMELY valuable, but it does breed skepticism in place of faith.However among LDS, studies have shown the more educated one is, the stronger one is in the faith…more likely to stay. it is the less educated that are more likely to wander. But it would seem that this advantage is for the converted already, which would make sense since our converts come from the general population.
Ham Clam Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 Could they just get a system that shows more than the number on record and somehow estimates active numbers, please? I have no idea of how it's all working now.
Popular Post The Nehor Posted January 30, 2015 Popular Post Posted January 30, 2015 Why do you think the church will be so much more successful in developing countries than the developed? Is it all about the income/pride cycle or is there an element of education and access to information?Jesus's parable where he invites the well-heeled to the feast and everyone has lame excuses and then he grabs the bums and vagrants and brings them in and swears in his wrath that the first group will not be let in. 5
Calm Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 Could they just get a system that shows more than the number on record and somehow estimates active numbers, please? I have no idea of how it's all working now.Looking at congregations is probably the easiest thing to do at the moment. Those are based on active members, though they may vary in size over time (at times leadership goes for larger wards or smaller ones). 2
KevinG Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 I have heard modern day Apostles say virtually the same thing. They don't believe many of us actually have testimonies. My participation on this board tends to lead me to the same conclusion.My participation on this board makes me doubt the sincerity of my testimony too. (I kid).
ELF1024 Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 I have come to the conclusion that the LDS faith at some point in the next 20 years is going to see its attendance, retention and conversion numbers drop in a large way in developed countries. The Church cannot change God's word to appease a growing and angry majority. I also think many are married (no pun intended) to their ideologies on this topic and when they see the writing on the wall (that the Church is not changing its stance on SSM) they will leave. Those of us who remain will be marginalized and vilified. Meanwhile the Church in developing countries will thrive and grow and its members will be strong and faithful leaders. Last person out make sure they turn off the webserver, and the lights... 1
pogi Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 I have heard modern day Apostles say virtually the same thing. They don't believe many of us actually have testimonies. My participation on this board tends to lead me to the same conclusion. What is that conclusion? That if we don't agree with the church's political stance, then we have no testimony?What about the church's current political stance in support of nondiscrimination towards gays in "public accomodations"? Are you with the brethren on this issue, or are you on board the apostate ship? What about on the issue of immigration? I know several testimony holding members who disagree on these issues. We have already lost a few to SSM, but if we disagree, it doesn't mean that we are doomed. I do agree however that there will be a sifting, but it will not be over any one particular issue. Politics will play a part for some, history for others, sin for others, and science for others.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 Could they just get a system that shows more than the number on record and somehow estimates active numbers, please? I have no idea of how it's all working now.This is a serious, sincere question (for what it's worth): Why do activity levels in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a whole matter to you? Why not concentrate on those who are within both your circle of concern and your circle of influence, in your own ward, stake, and area?
carbon dioxide Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) I have come to the conclusion that the LDS faith at some point in the next 20 years is going to see its attendance, retention and conversion numbers drop in a large way in developed countries. The Church cannot change God's word to appease a growing and angry majority. I also think many are married (no pun intended) to their ideologies on this topic and when they see the writing on the wall (that the Church is not changing its stance on SSM) they will leave. Those of us who remain will be marginalized and vilified. Meanwhile the Church in developing countries will thrive and grow and its members will be strong and faithful leaders.It is possible. I think we should not expect to what happen to us to be any different that happened to the Nephites. The Nephites church did not keep growing and growing. They had their groups that broke off, The Church in the Book of Mormon struggled right up to 3 Nephi 11 and then the Lord came, destroyed the wicked, and set the Church right so their was not disputations among then regarding doctrine. Do we see the same thing today in the church with disputations in doctrine in the church? What is important is that we hold on to the iron rod regardless of what our fellow LDS friends do. Some will fall away and they will inherit the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdom as a reward. Will we be marginalized and vilified? YES. What happened in the Book of Mormon when the wicked gave the righteous one day for the sign to show Jesus was coming or be killed. We should not expect an easy walk to Zion. The Lord will purge those are not faithful. It says in the scriptures God's judgements come to the church first before he starts destroying the wicked in a large way. Based on the parable of the 10 virgins, if the number of virgins who do not make it is meant to be accurate, about half of LDS will not inherit the Celestial Kingdom. It is sad that some are giving up Celestial glory over gay marriage. But I guess they can spend the first 50 billion "years" of eternity trying to rationalize it away. Edited January 30, 2015 by carbon dioxide 2
rockpond Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 I have come to the conclusion that the LDS faith at some point in the next 20 years is going to see its attendance, retention and conversion numbers drop in a large way in developed countries. The Church cannot change God's word to appease a growing and angry majority. I also think many are married (no pun intended) to their ideologies on this topic and when they see the writing on the wall (that the Church is not changing its stance on SSM) they will leave. Those of us who remain will be marginalized and vilified. Meanwhile the Church in developing countries will thrive and grow and its members will be strong and faithful leaders. Our church history seems to indicate that we're more likely to adapt and keep growing rather than hold firm to a position that will cause church membership to shrink. But, as you know, I tend to agree that if the church does not accept gay marriage, it will ultimately see membership numbers decline. Then again, just looking at the historical trend... regardless of what the church does, we've probably only got one decade left of growth.
carbon dioxide Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Our church history seems to indicate that we're more likely to adapt and keep growing rather than hold firm to a position that will cause church membership to shrink. But, as you know, I tend to agree that if the church does not accept gay marriage, it will ultimately see membership numbers decline. Then again, just looking at the historical trend... regardless of what the church does, we've probably only got one decade left of growth.I see a lot of time before the Lord comes. Lots of things have to happen. But there are a lot of things to be excited about. If this whole global warming predictions are right, it will help cause more wars and more disasters across the world. People will be less interested in the LDS Church position on things like gay marriage when they are more worried about surviving the coming disasters. Edited January 31, 2015 by carbon dioxide 2
Popular Post ERayR Posted January 31, 2015 Popular Post Posted January 31, 2015 My participation on this board makes me doubt the sincerity of my testimony too. (I kid). It does make one question their own sanity at times. 6
Gervin Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Those of us who remain will be marginalized and vilified. But that's just a perception, by you, of how you think someone is treating you ... the important question is, what are you going to do about it?
Mystery Meat Posted January 31, 2015 Author Posted January 31, 2015 Our church history seems to indicate that we're more likely to adapt and keep growing rather than hold firm to a position that will cause church membership to shrink. But, as you know, I tend to agree that if the church does not accept gay marriage, it will ultimately see membership numbers decline. Then again, just looking at the historical trend... regardless of what the church does, we've probably only got one decade left of growth. I find this sad. I find it even sadder that so many are willing to trade their eternal salvation for the philosophies of men. 3
rockpond Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 I find this sad. I find it even sadder that so many are willing to trade their eternal salvation for the philosophies of men. I totally agree.
sdc999 Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Education is EXTREMELY valuable, but it does breed skepticism in place of faith.Education and knowledge can REPLACE faith. Faith being believing in things not known; therefore, if knowledge and knowing is achieved, there is no need for faith. Now there are still things that I do not know but have faith in. God! Never seen 1st hand but I believe in Him. I believe in Jesus Christ and have faith that through him I can return to my Heavenly Father.
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