The Pending Collapse Of Lds Membership

[Ferdinand55]

You are acting like you have scriptural support for your position that homosexual relationships within the bonds of marriage are not within the law of chastity.  You have NO scriptural support for that position.

 

The Bible says NOTHING about homosexual relationships within the bonds of marriage.

 

Jesus said NOTHING about homosexual relationships

 

The Book of Mormon says NOTHING about homosexual relationships

 

The Doctrine and Covenants says NOTHING about homosexual relationships

 

The Pearl of Great Price says NOTHING about homosexual relationships.

 

You are hanging your entire belief in the church becoming apostate on a few scriptures in the Bible that do not even address homosexual relationships within the bonds of marriage.  For such an important issue in your mind, God has been pretty silent about the whole thing.  Yet you claim the church will be in apostasy if church leaders say "The law of Chastity remains as it always has.  Sex outside of marriage is forbidden.  All worthy members will be allowed to marry in the temple"

 

Yes, modern day prophets have spoken out against homosexual marriage.  But there is no scriptural support for their position.  And there is no claim of a revelation from God.  That is a fact.

 

And btw, Abraham did not write ANYTHING about homosexuality.  He is not one of the authors of the Old Testament.  

Scripture rejects homosexuality period. It doesn't provide some sort of exception if the homosexual activity takes place within a legally recognized bond. It doesn't have to talk about homosexuality within the bonds of marriage, because it rejects the practice overall.

[Calm]

But where have all the critics gone? .

Are you talking about critics who were never LDS or critics who were once LDS but at the time they joined the board were not? Edited January 31, 2015 by calmoriah

[Ferdinand55]

 

 Here is scriptural rejection of homosexual activity:

 

Genesis 13:13

 

But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.

 

Genesis 19:5-7

 

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

 

And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Leviticus 18:22

 

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

 

Leviticus 20:13

 

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 

Isaiah 3:9

 

The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

 

Romans 1:27

 

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

 

1 Corinthians 6:9

 

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind

 

1 Timothy 1:10

 

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

 

2 Peter 2:6-10

 

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

[Bobbieaware]

So now you fall back on living prophets and apostles. Probably a logical thing to do. But I want to remind you that NO prophet has claimed to have had a revelation on SSM.

I also want to point out that for the first time in the 150+ history of the church, the prophet and apostles are commanding members to be celibate RATHER THAN GET MARRIED. (you did see the part about rather than get married right)

Up until this point in the entire history of the church, the prophets and apostles have not just urged, but commanded young men to not put off marriage. Did these apostles and prophet get this celibate rather than marriage from a revelation from God? You tell me. There has never been any claim from them about this policy coming from revelation.

So if the church is relying solely on the opinion of current prophet and apostles, there is not much assurance that they have this right at all. Those same leaders would be the first to tell you that the opinion of past leaders have not always been correct.

You believe their words solely because you want to believe their words. That is perfectly fine and reasonable. But let us not pretend that their opinion comes from revelation. So to sum up. There is NO scripture against SSM. And there is no revelation from God on SSM. And there is no revelation from God on telling gays they should be celibate. There are scriptures counseling that "it is not good for man to be alone" And there are plenty of statements from prophets encouraging members to marry. Yeah I know they were not talking about SSM. This is a relative new possibility. Perhaps they jumped the gun on the direction God wants them to take. I don't know if they are right or wrong. But I don't claim to know. Are you willing to condemn countless gay members to a life of loneliness with no human companionship based on the best guess of the prophet and apostles without any scripture or revelation to support this idea? Probably. It is a reasonable position for you to take. But don't expect me to. That seems just as reasonable to me. This whole issue is not as settled as you wish it to be.

From a faithful Latter-day Saint's point of view, your perspective has no validity because the faithful member knows the living prophets of the Church reject your arguments. So who is our testimony-bearing member going to believe, you or the men whom he regularly sustains as prophets, seers and revelators? I know what I'm saying here seems all-to obvious, but my point is that the only way you will ever be able to win formerly faithful and loyal members over to your side is to first succeed in undermining their testimonies that the Church is true and led by living prophets. This is an awesome and gravely serious responsibility for one to take upon himself.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[california boy]

Scripture rejects homosexuality period. It doesn't provide some sort of exception if the homosexual activity takes place within a legally recognized bond. It doesn't have to talk about homosexuality within the bonds of marriage, because it rejects the practice overall.

You are wrong.  Scriptures only reject homosexuality outside of marriage.  You got 4 scriptures talking about homosexual relations outside of marriage in the Bible and NONE in all the other scriptures combined.  The only way you can make your assertion true is if you can prove that there were SSM at the time those scriptures were written.  If not, then we can only assume they are addressing homosexuality outside of marriage.  

 

The scriptures also reject heterosexual sex outside of marriage.  Here are more than 4 scriptures condemning heterosexual sex outside of marriage.  We know these scriptures don't mean that God rejects heterosexual relations.

 

Hebrews 13:4 - Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 - Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.   (Read More...)

1 Corinthians 7:2 - Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,   (Read More...)

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 5:28 - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

1 Corinthians 6:18 - Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Corinthians 6:13 - Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body [is] not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

1 Corinthians 5:1 - It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Mark 10:11-12 - And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.  (Read More...)

Matthew 19:9 - And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

Matthew 5:27-28 - Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:   (Read More...)

2 Timothy 2:22 - Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Matthew 5:32 - But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Exodus 20:14 - Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Revelation 9:21 - Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

1 Timothy 1:10 - For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Ephesians 5:3 - But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,   (Read More...)

Luke 16:18 - Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.

Mark 7:20-23 - And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.   (Read More...)

Matthew 19:8 - He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Jeremiah 3:8 - And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Revelation 22:15 - For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Colossians 3:5 - Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Proverbs 1:1-33 - The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;   (Read More...)

Matthew 19:1-10 - And it came to pass, [that] when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;   (Read More...)

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Exodus 22:16-17 - And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.   (Read More...)

Genesis 2:24 - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 - For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:   (Read More...)

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Matthew 19:4-6 - And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,   (Read More...)

Ezekiel 16:29 - Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

Ezekiel 16:26-29 - Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.   (Read More...)

Jeremiah 3:1 - They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 57:3 - But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore.

Job 42:2 - I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee.

Job 31:1 - I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?

Leviticus 20:10 - And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Romans 1:1-32 - Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,   (Read More...)

Matthew 15:19-20 - For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:  (Read More...)

Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[california boy]

From a faithful Latter-day Saint's point of view, your perspective has no validity because our faithful member knows the living prophets of the Church reject your arguments. So who is our testimony-bearing member going to believe, you or the men whom he regularly sustains as prophets, seers and revelators? I know what I'm saying here seems all-to obvious, but my point is that the only way you will ever be able to win formerly faithful and loyal members over to your side is to first succeed in undermining their testimonies that the Church is true and led by living prophets. This is an awesome and gravely serious responsibility for one to take upon himself.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.  I am not trying to undermine anyones testimony that the church is true and led by living prophets.  I have NEVER said that the church was not led by living prophets. CFR where I have ever made such a statement.  And I am not trying to win anyone over to any side because I DON'T KNOW where God stands on this issue.  He has never revealed it to any prophet ever nor to me.  CFR where I have stated I know the will of God on SSM.

 

I am only pointing out the facts.  No scriptures on SSM.  No statements about homosexuality AT ALL in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants and Pearl of Great Price.  No claim of revelation from any latter day prophets or apostles on SSM.  Those are the facts.  I am not claiming that God supports SSM.  I am not claiming that the church has it wrong.  I am only pointing out the FACT that is all we have currently on SSM is the OPINION of church leaders.  If you have something more than the opinion of church leaders, then present it.

 

Now you got two CFR's to work on.  Answer the CFR's or withdraw your accusation.  That is how it works here on this board.

[california boy]

 

 Here is scriptural rejection of homosexual activity:

 

Genesis 13:13

 

But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.

 

Genesis 19:5-7

 

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

 

And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Leviticus 18:22

 

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

 

Leviticus 20:13

 

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

 

Isaiah 3:9

 

The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

 

Romans 1:27

 

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

 

1 Corinthians 6:9

 

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind

 

1 Timothy 1:10

 

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

 

2 Peter 2:6-10

 

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

 

 

Ezekiel 16:49–50

 

49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.  They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.

 

Geeze people, don't you know your scriptures?

 

For those that would like a pretty even handed discussion of Sodom and Gomorrah you might find this article interesting.

 

Yale historian John Boswell offers four possible reasons for the destruction of Sodom:

(1) The Sodomites were destroyed for the general wickedness which had prompted the Lord to send angels to the city to investigate in the first place; (2) the city was destroyed because the people of Sodom had tried to rape the angels; (3) the city was destroyed because the men of Sodom had tried to engage in homosexual intercourse with the angels...; (4) the city was destroyed for inhospitable treatment of visitors sent from the Lord.[1]

John Boswell thinks that explanation (2) "is the most obvious of the four," though it's been "largely ignored by biblical scholars."[2] Boswell expands on explanation (4), the one he seems to favor as most consistent with "modern scholarship" since 1955:

 

Lot was violating the custom of Sodom...by entertaining unknown guests within the city walls at night without obtaining the permission of the elders of the city. When the men of Sodom gathered around to demand that the strangers be brought out to them, "that they might know them," they meant no more than to "know" who they were, and the city was consequently destroyed not for sexual immorality, but for the sin of inhospitality to strangers.[3]

Englishman D. Sherwin Bailey also argues this way in Homosexuality and the Western Christian Tradition (1955). The men of Sodom wanted to interrogate Lot's guests to see if they were spies. The sin of gang rape was also in view, not homosexuality. In a broader sense, the men of Sodom were inhospitable to Lot's guests.

Apparently, it did not occur to Boswell that possibilities (2) and (4) seem to be at odds. If "to know" the angels means merely to interrogate them, then there is no attempted rape, only an attempted interrogation. If, on the other hand, the men meant to have sexual relations with the visitors (the traditional view) and are guilty of attempted rape, then the interrogation explanation must be abandoned (rendering Boswell’s above summary of the views of modern scholarship somewhat incoherent).

 

 

Edited January 31, 2015 by california boy

[Kenngo1969]

There are no scriptures that condemn, explicitly and specifically, the use of Heroin, either.  (Not even the Word of Wisdom does that.) If that's the sole yardstick by which we measure what leaders the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should be teaching and what its members should be doing, respectively, it would be a much different Church.

[why me]

Are you talking about critics who were never LDS or critics who were once LDS but at the time they joined the board were not?

Both. But now the critics are lds. They are doing the work of the critics which I find strange.

[Duncan]

 

 

I understand your point, but do we really need official "revelation"?  Church leaders make important decisions all the time without an official declaration and we don't seem to be bothered by it.

 

For example, I'd argue that the mission age changes are far more significant to the Church than the Proclamation of the Family.  Lowering the mission age and allowing young men to go on a mission right out of high school will have a much bigger impact on church retention than the Proclamation.  In sheer numbers, it probably will have a bigger effect than OD2.

 

And I predict that lowering the mission age for women will fundamentally alter the Church (and the priesthood itself).  In short, as women become as integral in the mission field as men, it will be even harder for the Church to justify not ordaining them.  Moreover, their increased participation will create a greater sense of "entitlement" to the priesthood.

 

If I'm right (it's happened once or twice ... well, at least, once), the missionary age change will be HUGE and no one will claim that it was invalid because it didn't come through "revelation."  So why the need for revelation in making the change in re SSM?  Isn't HF putting the right people in leadership enough involvement?  We don't need Him to whisper every direction into their ears?  After all, they are prophets of God, not 5 year-olds at F&T meeting (sorry, I couldn't help myself on that one).

 

 

 

we NEED more sisters here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! someone needs to put the heat on more who are who thinking about it!!!! or to entertain the idea!

[Mystery Meat]

There are no scriptures that condemn, explicitly and specifically, the use of Heroin, either.  (Not even the Word of Wisdom does that.) If that's the sole yardstick by which we measure what leaders the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should be teaching and what its members should be doing, respectively, it would be a much different Church.

 

Porn is back on the table! YES!!!!!!!!!

 

Thanks, CB. I can now go back to porn!

[Ferdinand55]

You are wrong.  Scriptures only reject homosexuality outside of marriage.  You got 4 scriptures talking about homosexual relations outside of marriage in the Bible and NONE in all the other scriptures combined.  The only way you can make your assertion true is if you can prove that there were SSM at the time those scriptures were written.  If not, then we can only assume they are addressing homosexuality outside of marriage.  

 

The scriptures also reject heterosexual sex outside of marriage.  Here are more than 4 scriptures condemning heterosexual sex outside of marriage.  We know these scriptures don't mean that God rejects heterosexual relations.

 

Hebrews 13:4 - Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 - Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.   (Read More...)

1 Corinthians 7:2 - Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,   (Read More...)

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 5:28 - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

1 Corinthians 6:18 - Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Corinthians 6:13 - Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body [is] not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

1 Corinthians 5:1 - It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Mark 10:11-12 - And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.  (Read More...)

Matthew 19:9 - And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

Matthew 5:27-28 - Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:   (Read More...)

2 Timothy 2:22 - Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Matthew 5:32 - But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Exodus 20:14 - Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Revelation 9:21 - Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

1 Timothy 1:10 - For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Ephesians 5:3 - But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,   (Read More...)

Luke 16:18 - Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery.

Mark 7:20-23 - And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.   (Read More...)

Matthew 19:8 - He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Jeremiah 3:8 - And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Revelation 22:15 - For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Colossians 3:5 - Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Proverbs 1:1-33 - The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;   (Read More...)

Matthew 19:1-10 - And it came to pass, [that] when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;   (Read More...)

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Exodus 22:16-17 - And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.   (Read More...)

Genesis 2:24 - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 - For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:   (Read More...)

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Matthew 19:4-6 - And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,   (Read More...)

Ezekiel 16:29 - Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

Ezekiel 16:26-29 - Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.   (Read More...)

Jeremiah 3:1 - They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 57:3 - But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore.

Job 42:2 - I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee.

Job 31:1 - I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?

Leviticus 20:10 - And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Romans 1:1-32 - Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,   (Read More...)

Matthew 15:19-20 - For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:  (Read More...)

Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Consider the following scriptures:

And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

 

And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

(Leviticus 20:15-16)

According to your logic, God isn't condemning zoophilia altogether. He is only condemning sex with animals outside of marriage.

Is that correct?

[california boy]

There are no scriptures that condemn, explicitly and specifically, the use of Heroin, either.  (Not even the Word of Wisdom does that.) If that's the sole yardstick by which we measure what leaders the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should be teaching and what its members should be doing, respectively, it would be a much different Church.

 

I completely agree.  I think the church got forbidding the use of Heroin right even without a revelation.  And like I have said countless times, they may have gotten no SSM right as well.  But in order to do that, the church has to, for the first time in all of it's history and against ALL scripture tell members that celibacy is required rather than marriage.  Unlike your heroin example, that is a bit problematic.  And altering the Plan of Salvation to not allow someone to have a temple marriage is a bit problematic.  This issue is way more complicated than forbiding Heroin.  It is something that their opinions simply can not be wrong about.  It has to do with how we teach eternal salvation.  Seems like a revelation on this issue might be a bit more required than just forbiding Heroin use.

[california boy]

 

Consider the following scriptures:

And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

 

And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

(Leviticus 20:15-16)

According to your logic, God isn't condemning zoophilia altogether. He is only condemning sex with animals outside of marriage.

Is that correct?

 

 

You do know that it is against board rules to compare homosexuality with zoophilia. 

[Bobbieaware]

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am not trying to undermine anyones testimony that the church is true and led by living prophets. I have NEVER said that the church was not led by living prophets. CFR where I have ever made such a statement. And I am not trying to win anyone over to any side because I DON'T KNOW where God stands on this issue. He has never revealed it to any prophet ever nor to me. CFR where I have stated I know the will of God on SSM.

I am only pointing out the facts. No scriptures on SSM. No statements about homosexuality AT ALL in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. No claim of revelation from any latter day prophets or apostles on SSM. Those are the facts. I am not claiming that God supports SSM. I am not claiming that the church has it wrong. I am only pointing out the FACT that is all we have currently on SSM is the OPINION of church leaders. If you have something more than the opinion of church leaders, then present it.

Now you got two CFR's to work on. Answer the CFR's or withdraw your accusation. That is how it works here on this board.

As to your call for two CFRs, although the Bible and the words of the living prophets condemn the practice of homosexuality, apparently these very powerful witnesses aren't good enough for you; and you try to convince others that since similar condemnations aren't found in the other books of scripture that this somehow calls into serious question.the first two prophetic witnesses. So you are trying to persuade others to second guess the living prophets because in your mind the first two witnesses aren't sufficient, even though the Lord said the truth can be established by at least two witnesses.

Also, while you have not said you know the will of God with regard to SSM, you do undermine the words of the living prophets and the Family Proclamation by saying that since only two witnesses condemn homosexuality, the members should doubt and second guess the living prophets on the subject. Do you deny that, polemically speaking, you are fighting hammer and tong to convince faithful members that the prophets could very well be wrong in their officially and formally made assertions that homosexuality (acted upon) is a sin?

The very reason why the Lord has given the.Church living apostles and prophets is to settle critically important questions, such as this one, so that the members don't have to be " tossed to and fro" by an avalanche of uninspired opinions. Any undermining or calls to doubt the inspired teachings of the living prophets is a gravely serious undertaking.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[california boy]

Porn is back on the table! YES!!!!!!!!!

 

Thanks, CB. I can now go back to porn!

 

Read my response to Ken.  And quit saying things that I NEVER said.  Knock it off.

[Bobbieaware]

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am not trying to undermine anyones testimony that the church is true and led by living prophets. I have NEVER said that the church was not led by living prophets. CFR where I have ever made such a statement. And I am not trying to win anyone over to any side because I DON'T KNOW where God stands on this issue. He has never revealed it to any prophet ever nor to me. CFR where I have stated I know the will of God on SSM.

I am only pointing out the facts. No scriptures on SSM. No statements about homosexuality AT ALL in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. No claim of revelation from any latter day prophets or apostles on SSM. Those are the facts. I am not claiming that God supports SSM. I am not claiming that the church has it wrong. I am only pointing out the FACT that is all we have currently on SSM is the OPINION of church leaders. If you have something more than the opinion of church leaders, then present it.

Now you got two CFR's to work on. Answer the CFR's or withdraw your accusation. That is how it works here on this board.

Duplicate

Edited January 31, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[california boy]

As to your call for two CFRs, although the Bible and the words of the living prophets condemn the practice of homosexuality, apparently these very powerful witnesses aren't good enough for you; and you try to convince others that since similar condemnations aren't found in the other books of scripture that this somehow calls into serious question.the first two prophetic witnesses. So you are trying to persuade others to second guess the living prophets because in your mind the first two witnesses aren't sufficient even though the Lord said the truth can be established by at least two witnesses.

Also, while you have not said you know the will of God with regard to SSM, you do undermine the words of the living prophets and the Family Proclamation by saying that since only two witnesses condemn homosexuality, the members should doubt and second guess the living prophets on the subject. Do you deny that, polemically speaking, you are fighting hammer and tong to convince faithful members that the prophets could very well be wrong in their officially and formally made assertions that homosexuality (acted upon) is a sin?

The very reason why the Lord has given the.Church living apostles and prophets is to settle critically important questions such as this one, so that the members don't have to be " tossed to and fro" by an avalanche of uninspired opinions. Any undermining or calls to doubt the inspired teachings of the living prophets is a gravely serious undertaking.

 

Are you new to this board?  Do you not know what a CFR is?  You made two claims against me.  You claimed that I have stated the church is not led by a living prophet.  And you claimed that I have stated I know the will of God on SSM.  A CFR means you have to find a statement in ALL of the over 3000 post that I have made where I have made those statements just ONCE.  Now get digging and find the quote or withdraw the accusation.

 

I am tired of you stating things I have never said.  So CFR where in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants and Pearl of Great Price where it even mentions homosexuality.  I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.  I am only stating the facts.

 

 

Now answer the CFR's or withdraw your unfounded accusations.

[Ferdinand55]

You do know that it is against board rules to compare homosexuality with zoophilia. 

I wasn't comparing homosexuality with zoophilia. If you believed that I was implying it, then I apologize. That was not my intention.

 

I do think that my post, however, had a valid point. That point is that if you read the verses that condemn homosexuality as only condemning it outside of marriage, then this same reasoning can be applied to the verses about zoophilia. Thus, your interpretation of these scriptures has a flawed premise.

[california boy]

I wasn't comparing homosexuality with zoophilia. If you believed that I was implying it, then I apologize. That was not my intention.

 

I do think that my post, however, had a valid point. That point is that if you read the verses that condemn homosexuality as only condemning it outside of marriage, then this same reasoning can be applied to the verses about zoophilia. Thus, your interpretation of these scriptures has a flawed premise.

 

Can you difinitively show me that these scriptures are NOT talking about homosexuality outside of marriage?  Because is all I am saying is that it is NOT CLEAR if God condemns SSM from these scriptures.  

 

And you are right.  It is not clear whether God condemns zoophillia marriages.  No one is interested in marrying barnyard animals.  And this is the area where you are in fact comparing SSM to marrying animals.  Do you get why that is offensive and why the board forbids such comparisons.  

[Ferdinand55]

Can you difinitively show me that these scriptures are NOT talking about homosexuality outside of marriage?  Because is all I am saying is that it is NOT CLEAR if God condemns SSM from these scriptures.  

 

And you are right.  It is not clear whether God condemns zoophillia marriages.  No one is interested in marrying barnyard animals.  And this is the area where you are in fact comparing SSM to marrying animals.  Do you get why that is offensive and why the board forbids such comparisons.  

 

But it is clear that God condemns homosexual activity.

 

"No one is interested in marrying barnyard animals." Debatable.

 

I am not comparing Same-sex marriage to marrying animals. I am comparing your interpretation of the bible verses as not condemning same-sex marriage with an interpretation of God not condemning marrying animals. I will never compare homosexuality with zoophilia. To do so would be, in my mind, extremely offensive and bigoted.

[california boy]

But it is clear that God condemns homosexual activity.

 

"No one is interested in marrying barnyard animals." Debatable.

 

I am not comparing Same-sex marriage to marrying animals. I am comparing your interpretation of the bible verses as not condemning same-sex marriage with an interpretation of God not condemning marrying animals. I will never compare homosexuality with zoophilia. To do so would be, in my mind, extremely offensive and bigoted.

 

It is just as clear God condemns heterosexual activity.  I have given you way more scriptures where God has clearly stated that.

[omni]

Lets play a game and see if we can get every thread on the first page of General Discussions to be related to SSM. We're off to a great start at seven! Mark...set...go!

[Ares]

Lets play a game and see if we can get every thread on the first page of General Discussions to be related to SSM. We're off to a great start at seven! Mark...set...go!

Agreed. Stop injecting "Homosexuality and the LDS church" into every discussion folks. It is getting monotonous. Put this thread back on topic or it will close.

[cinepro]

I have come to the conclusion that the LDS faith at some point in the next 20 years is going to see its attendance, retention and conversion numbers drop in a large way in developed countries. The Church cannot change God's word to appease a growing and angry majority. I also think many are married (no pun intended) to their ideologies on this topic and when they see the writing on the wall (that the Church is not changing its stance on SSM) they will leave. 

 

Those of us who remain will be marginalized and vilified. 

 

Meanwhile the Church in developing countries will thrive and grow and its members will be strong and faithful leaders.

 

It's an interesting prediction, but since we don't know the attendance and retention numbers, it will be hard to know one way or another.  We do have some insight into conversion numbers, so maybe we'll know about those.

 

As others have pointed out, the real key is the number of wards and stakes.  I think the number of missionaries can also be an indicator of the number of believing young men and women who are at that age.  So if we see the number of stakes or wards start to actually decline, and the number of missionaries decline at a rate that is unrelated to birthrate, that might be a sign that things are slowing down.

 

Also, as tithing drops, there would be intense financial pressure on the Church, and we would see drastic cost-cutting measures in addition to increased pressure to pay tithing (talks in GC, articles in Church magazines etc.).  I think we've already seen some of those cost-cutting measures, but if there is any significant reduction in the number of active, tithe-paying members, it could get very serious.