John's Apostasy?

[Kenngo1969]

You must feed "trolls" better than some of the other forums because intra has visited several others, but hasn't been very active as of late. Actually I think it's stricter moderation.

I thought school being back in session might have something to do with it.

[Kenngo1969]

I don't know how far a troll has to go to get banned/edited on this forum.

I can see how this forum is ripe for trolling though.

A troll can be fun to play with!  If you rub his belly just right, he giggles!

[teddyaware]

nothing in the passage you quoted indicates to me that John did not die. on the contrary, Jesus seemed to be rebuking Peter for focusing on John's eventual fate - which seems in keeping with the larger context of the disciples having some form rivalry among them (ex. Matthew 20:20-28), and John makes the effort to specifically address what had become a rumor about him, making it clear 'Jesus did not say this.'

that leaves the question of whether John 'tarried' explicitly inconclusive and by implication doubtful. 

it is Joseph Smith's teaching, and not the teaching of the Bible, that John is still walking on earth. this isn't a "proof text" - if anything, it specifically casts doubt on what the D&C affirms. 

the reason i made this thread (contrary to the presumption of those who have nothing but curses in their mouths) is to try to address logical inconsistency that arises in my mind when i try to understand how this could be so. 

it is not clear to me how that John could have been instructed to "make disciples of all nations" and left on earth specifically to continue ministering if the net result was that the true faith should be gone from the earth even in John's presence. 

the conclusion that was pointed out by another one in this thread, that the priesthood instead was never removed from the earth,

is a lot more satisfactory if John was neither apostate nor removed. this however is a blot against the notion that the priesthood had need to be restored, because that notion implies the priesthood was not in existence. 

 

Since by your own admission you are unsure, one way or the other, whether or not John tarried on earth in a translated state, I see no need to continue our discussion. You have guesses and opinions, we have revelation. Get over the frustration of it all if you can. I will not debate over a admitted position of conjecture as if that conjecture is established fact. All the best to you...

[Sevenbak]

 

Now two individuals who did meet the "translated" apostle John were Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, and this meeting took place when they were ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood; but in this instance an exception was made and their encounter with the resurrected Peter and James, and the translated John, was made public that the world might know from whence the priesthood authority of Joseph and Oliver came. 

 

One day the Lord will reveal what these four ordained men of God did and accomplished on here on earth as they remained incognito (remember?) during the long night of general apostasy, and when their deeds are revealed, I'm sure we'll all be amazed, impressed and very grateful for they wonderful works the did.

 

Well said, although I don't think it will be recieved.

 

For what it's worth, there's at least one other occasion that I'm aware of where John the Beloved administered in this dispensation to the knowledge of those present

 

 

Elder Heber C. Kimball recorded an appearance of John in the Kirtland Temple:

“When the Prophet Joseph had finished the endowments of the First Presidency, the Twelve and the Presiding Bishops, the First Presidency proceeded to lay hands upon each one of them to seal and confirm the anointing; and at the close of each blessing the whole of the quorums responded to it with a loud shout of Hosanna! Hosanna! etc.

 

“While these things were being attended to the beloved disciple John was seen in our midst by the Prophet Joseph, Oliver Cowdery and others.” (In Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, pp. 91–92.)

[Sevenbak]

Also, I'm fairly sure I remember something about John's main mission to be among the lost tribes, to help facilitate their return, while the 3 Nephites administered primarily to the House of Menassah.   Perhaps someone can confirm that.   It's probably why there are no tire changing stories about John. 

Edited January 13, 2015 by Sevenbak

[intra]

Since by your own admission you are unsure

that's not what i said at all. i know the Truth, that John lives: 

 

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

(1 John 2:24-25)

what isn't clear is what doctrine explains how an apostle of Christ, with every priestly authority given to apostles (much more 4 of them!) could persist on earth for over a thousand years while at the same time there was neither apostles, priestly authority or sound doctrine on the earth. 

puffing about your revelation doesn't answer the question. mocking me for asking doesn't answer the question. declaring you won't answer the question doesn't answer the question. 

i ask the Lord, He says "He that abides in me lives forever, and in me there is no death" and He says "salvation is in Me, not in any other" 

i ask the Lord if D&C 7 is true; He says "ask them if John is apostate." 

i ask the forum and the forum spits on me. 

what is the meaning of the Lord's word to me, and of the testimony of the forum? 

[Sevenbak]

that's not what i said at all. i know the Truth, that John lives: 

 

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

(1 John 2:24-25)

what isn't clear is what doctrine explains how an apostle of Christ, with every priestly authority given to apostles (much more 4 of them!) could persist on earth for over a thousand years while at the same time there was neither apostles, priestly authority or sound doctrine on the earth. 

puffing about your revelation doesn't answer the question. mocking me for asking doesn't answer the question. declaring you won't answer the question doesn't answer the question. 

i ask the Lord, He says "He that abides in me lives forever, and in me there is no death" and He says "salvation is in Me, not in any other" 

i ask the Lord if D&C 7 is true; He says "ask them if John is apostate." 

i ask the forum and the forum spits on me. 

what is the meaning of the Lord's word to me, and of the testimony of the forum? 

Why do you keep asking the question when it's been answered over and over, and then in the same breath accuse us of spitting? Do you think the mocking and accusatory tone in your posts is going to bring different answers?

 

I won't revisit what's been said about John, because you apparently have read D&C enough that the Lord told you to ask us if John is apostate...??  That's what is so confusing, is that you would say that after reading Section 7, it makes no sense.

 

 

Perhaps a further look into the doctrine would help.  At least I would hope so.  I encourage you to read more about this before going further in the inflammatory posts.  It might do us all some good.

 

Here's a bold HINT.   The iniquity of the world was the reason John and the 3 Nephites were taken away.  Same goes for Enoch.  But that doesn't mean they don't continue to minister, as will also Enoch in the future.

 

 

 

Mormon 1:13  "But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people."

 

 

3 Nephi 28:30   "And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good."

 

Moroni 7:30   "For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness."

[Crypto]

I would like to propose a question.

As is commonly taught among several denominations, (I am unsure as to whether you subscribe to this though)
Do you believe that in the times of Noah that there was apostasy? (which is generally why the flood is explained to have happened)

And another question, do you believe in old testament times circa Noah that God had priests, such as shem?

If so, then a state of apostasy can exist while righteous priesthood is also found, even if in minority.

[intra]

The iniquity of the world was the reason John and the 3 Nephites were taken away.  Same goes for Enoch.  But that doesn't mean they don't continue to minister, as will also Enoch in the future.

 

 

Mormon 1:13  "But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people."

 

the Lord i know came to redeem the world from it's iniquity. 

He loved us and died for us while we were yet sinners, yet enemies of Him, yet trolls, yet in darkness and having not the Truth. 

He was found by a people who didn't seek Him, and revealed to a people who never knew Him. 

the passage you quoted says the disciples were taken away - how then is it also true that he did not take one away, but left him to minister? 

which is it? taken away or not? 

if the ministration of the pure gospel continued without ceasing, how is it the pure gospel wasn't found on the earth for 1500+ years?

 

 

[intra]

from lds.org -- 

Restoration: God’s reestablishment of the truths and ordinances of his gospel among men on earth. The gospel of Jesus Christ was lost from the earth through the apostasy that took place following the earthly ministry of Christ’s Apostles. That apostasy made necessary the restoration of the gospel.

sez that Christ's apostles earthly ministry ceased, and then, apostasy. 
but you guys are telling me that John's ministration did not ever cease (which is what J.S. said too). 

sez in the LDS doctrinal statement, gospel of Jesus Christ "lost from the Earth" 
and sez in D&C that John lived on the earth all this time. 

hence, i assume if LDS doctrine is true, John must have been apostate. else if He had the gospel of Jesus Christ and even ministered according to it for centuries, the gospel was not lost on earth, for it resided in John. only if John forsook the gospel of Christ was it gone from the earth so long as John walked on the earth. 

does that make more clear why this thread exists? 
it is true i am no expert of your ways. there are things that i hope would be cleared up -- and i can tell you, simply mocking and cursing me is not an effective means of edification, unless what is meant to be taught is that you have contempt for searching out the truth. 

God gives wisdom, and God instructs. 
 

[Sevenbak]

the Lord i know came to redeem the world from it's iniquity. 

He loved us and died for us while we were yet sinners, yet enemies of Him, yet trolls, yet in darkness and having not the Truth. 

He was found by a people who didn't seek Him, and revealed to a people who never knew Him. 

the passage you quoted says the disciples were taken away - how then is it also true that he did not take one away, but left him to minister? 

which is it? taken away or n

if the ministration of the pure gospel continued without ceasing, how is it the pure gospel wasn't found on the earth for 1500+ years?

 

 

You twist the words, but they still don't say what you are trying to make them say.   I give up.  You can really study about the doctrine of translated beings if you wish, or you can continue what it is you are doing.   But I won't continue.  

[JLHPROF]

You twist the words, but they still don't say what you are trying to make them say.   

 

 But I won't continue.  

 

Yeah, his posts seem to have that effect...

[rodheadlee]

according to D&C 7 the apostle John is still alive and on the earth somewhere, and has been ever since 1AD. 

also according to LDS tenets the 'true gospel' of Christ was gone from the earth until Joseph Smith re-instituted it; all other Christian belief being apostate. 

to date John has not stepped forward to endorse the BOM, any latter-day apostle or prophet, or any of the basic changes in theology between historical Christianity and Mormonism. many modern-day adherents of Christianity i've spoken to tell me that they are "waiting for John to become a Mormon" before they will accept LDS teaching, which seems a very reasonable argument, if indeed a living eyewitness of Christ's ministry is still with us. unless it is John who is a false teacher. 

it stands to reason that if John lives on, but the pure gospel was gone from the earth for ~1700 years or more, John must also have been apostate himself for that period, otherwise the teaching that there was no one on earth with the true gospel but Joseph Smith is false. 

so what is John's apostasy? why did John forsake the faith? why was John't priesthood removed? 

is it that he rejected the BOM 1900 years ago and continues to? or something else? was John already apostate when he wrote his gospel and letters and revelation? 

if the apostle John is an heretic apostate defrocked of his Melchizedek priesthood, how can any of us have assurance of keeping the faith? are we greater than John? 

 

thanks. 

If somebody came on TV, CNN, Fox, whatever, and said they were John , would you believe him? If somebody you knew said they had seen John would you believe him or her? If somebody you didn't know said they had seen John last year, would you believe them? If somebody a couple hundred years ago said they had seen John would you believe them? If you believed any of these people, how would you know it's true?

[mfbukowski]

If somebody came on TV, CNN, Fox, whatever, and said they were John , would you believe him? If somebody you knew said they had seen John would you believe him or her? If somebody you didn't know said they had seen John last year, would you believe them? If somebody a couple hundred years ago said they had seen John would you believe them? If you believed any of these people, how would you know it's true?

If someone came on this thread and said that God had revealed to him that he should bring up this thread, would you believe him?

 

Odd that he believes he is the only one preaching the true gospel in a world which rejects his message, isn't it? 

 

Just like John in an apostate world?

 

A little projection perhaps?

 

A mirror of his own psychological state?  The true message is not lost because he is here to preach to us.  That seems to account for his distain for discussion with others, his pronouncements, and judgementalism.  He is the one true messenger still on the earth.  Interesting.

 

Perhaps he thinks he IS John

Edited January 13, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Sevenbak]

 

 

Perhaps he thinks he IS John

 

 

I think that role has already been taken.

 

[Stargazer]

the Lord i know came to redeem the world from it's iniquity. 

He loved us and died for us while we were yet sinners, yet enemies of Him, yet trolls, yet in darkness and having not the Truth. 

He was found by a people who didn't seek Him, and revealed to a people who never knew Him. 

the passage you quoted says the disciples were taken away - how then is it also true that he did not take one away, but left him to minister? 

which is it? taken away or not? 

if the ministration of the pure gospel continued without ceasing, how is it the pure gospel wasn't found on the earth for 1500+ years?

 

 

And if it were a pure gospel, how is it then that from the time of the Apostles' being taken away from the earth the Church descended into factions, politics, schisms and heresies?  In 325 AD they had to have a council (First Council of Nicaea) to try to agree on how to define God, a conference ordered by a pagan Emperor who only converted on his deathbed.  And all the other councils that produced Creeds of one sort or another.  Then we have the schism that produced the Catholic Church in the west and the Orthodox in the east -- all due to a disagreement over the Filioque, a section of the Nicene Creed that some considered doctrine and others considered heresy.  That was the Great Schism.  And since then there have been countless others.  Nobody agrees, even though they all have the scriptures.  In about 30 versions.  Hah.

 

 

So, with all these basic disagreements, along with wars fought to decide certain theological points of view, where do you think that PURE gospel is these days?

 

And as to taking people away, it is very easy to do and still have them minister.  Or did Jesus cease to minister after He was taken away?  And what about Moses ministering to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration?  And Elijah?

 

I appreciate the fact that you love the Lord, but infra, your ignorance of the gospel and the history of Christianity is astonishing, for all that.

[Stargazer]

from lds.org -- 

Restoration: God’s reestablishment of the truths and ordinances of his gospel among men on earth. The gospel of Jesus Christ was lost from the earth through the apostasy that took place following the earthly ministry of Christ’s Apostles. That apostasy made necessary the restoration of the gospel.

sez that Christ's apostles earthly ministry ceased, and then, apostasy. 

but you guys are telling me that John's ministration did not ever cease (which is what J.S. said too). 

sez in the LDS doctrinal statement, gospel of Jesus Christ "lost from the Earth" 

and sez in D&C that John lived on the earth all this time. 

hence, i assume if LDS doctrine is true, John must have been apostate. else if He had the gospel of Jesus Christ and even ministered according to it for centuries, the gospel was not lost on earth, for it resided in John. only if John forsook the gospel of Christ was it gone from the earth so long as John walked on the earth. 

does that make more clear why this thread exists? 

it is true i am no expert of your ways. there are things that i hope would be cleared up -- and i can tell you, simply mocking and cursing me is not an effective means of edification, unless what is meant to be taught is that you have contempt for searching out the truth. 

God gives wisdom, and God instructs. 

 

 

If you want to split hairs, then fine.

 

The gospel, per se, was not lost so much as it became mixed with the philosophies of men.  And the divine authority to administer the ordinances of the gospel was lost among men, except for the Three Nephites and John the Beloved, who, necessarily (and by command), had to remain discreet.  In my previous post perhaps you saw that the schisms within Christianity left things in quite a disordered state?  This is what we call the Great Apostasy, which was actually in its early stages even while the men who were the original 12 apostles were still on the earth and ministering in their mortal forms.

 

It is true that God gives wisdom, and He instructs, but only if the person will receive the same.  Are you one of the few who does, and you're trying to correct all the others?  It sounds like you think so, anyway. 

[intra]

none of you are answering the question. 

if John had the gospel of Christ, and John was ministering that very gospel on the earth, how can you say the gospel was not found anywhere on the earth? was it not found in John? 

 

[intra]

And if it were a pure gospel, how is it then that from the time of the Apostles' being taken away from the earth the Church descended into factions, politics, schisms and heresies?

and if the LDS has the pure gospel, why are there already a dozen different sects of her too, after only one century? 

where then is the pure gospel found? is it found anywhere but in Christ Himself? 

amen, the Lord ministers among us, and His hand is not shortened! 

[Stargazer]

none of you are answering the question. 

if John had the gospel of Christ, and John was ministering that very gospel on the earth, how can you say the gospel was not found anywhere on the earth? was it not found in John? 

 

 

Hmmm.  I answered your question.  Perhaps you missed it.  In the two posts immediately prior to this last one by you above.

 

In summary, to say that the gospel was lost is perhaps an exaggeration.  Since the gospel is, by definition, the good news of Jesus's atonement and resurrection, the gospel was known.  What was lost was the authority to act in God's name, and many points of true doctrine were also lost, or became corrupt.  And this made the restoration of the full gospel a necessity.

[mfbukowski]

none of you are answering the question. 

if John had the gospel of Christ, and John was ministering that very gospel on the earth, how can you say the gospel was not found anywhere on the earth? was it not found in John? 

 

One priesthood holder does not make "the gospel".

 

He was ministering, but all of society was against him.  This is not rocket science.

[intra]

If you want to split hairs, then fine.

 John the Beloved, who, necessarily (and by command), had to remain discreet. 

o look! another hair! 

i have not seen it written that John was commanded to be discreet. the passage quoted earlier in the thread prophesied that some would be among the Jews and Gentiles but not recognized -- it did not command  John. is that written elsewhere? i would like to see. 

"to be discreet" is not tantamount to "to not exist on the earth." if the Lord has a remnant, the Lord has a remnant. Elijah complained that He alone served God, and the Lord rebuked him. so too, Sodom was not without a righteous man until Lot was taken out of her. this does not answer how the gospel of Christ was not extant, if John was. 

[intra]

Hmmm.  I answered your question.  Perhaps you missed it.  In the two posts immediately prior to this last one by you above.

 

In summary, to say that the gospel was lost is perhaps an exaggeration.  Since the gospel is, by definition, the good news of Jesus's atonement and resurrection, the gospel was known.  What was lost was the authority to act in God's name, and many points of true doctrine were also lost, or became corrupt.  And this made the restoration of the full gospel a necessity.

at what point did John lose the authority to act in God's name? when did John lose many points of doctrine? how did John become corrupt? now we are back at the beginning, justifying my original post. thanks for that, but aren't you saying John was either corrupt (apostate) or that John was no longer ministering on the earth? 

[mfbukowski]

... the passage quoted earlier in the thread prophesied that some would be among the Jews and Gentiles but not recognized --...

You just answered your own question.

[Sevenbak]

Bob Betts, is that you?