John's Apostasy?

[teddyaware]

according to D&C 7 the apostle John is still alive and on the earth somewhere, and has been ever since 1AD. 

also according to LDS tenets the 'true gospel' of Christ was gone from the earth until Joseph Smith re-instituted it; all other Christian belief being apostate. 

to date John has not stepped forward to endorse the BOM, any latter-day apostle or prophet, or any of the basic changes in theology between historical Christianity and Mormonism. many modern-day adherents of Christianity i've spoken to tell me that they are "waiting for John to become a Mormon" before they will accept LDS teaching, which seems a very reasonable argument, if indeed a living eyewitness of Christ's ministry is still with us. unless it is John who is a false teacher. 

it stands to reason that if John lives on, but the pure gospel was gone from the earth for ~1700 years or more, John must also have been apostate himself for that period, otherwise the teaching that there was no one on earth with the true gospel but Joseph Smith is false. 

so what is John's apostasy? why did John forsake the faith? why was John't priesthood removed? 

is it that he rejected the BOM 1900 years ago and continues to? or something else? was John already apostate when he wrote his gospel and letters and revelation? 

if the apostle John is an heretic apostate defrocked of his Melchizedek priesthood, how can any of us have assurance of keeping the faith? are we greater than John? 

 

thanks. 

 

A final point: 

 

was Jesus incognito? 

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

(John 1:10) 

hearing that not one, but 4 bearers of the true testimony of Christ remain on the earth all this time, i am at even more of a loss as to ken how that the gospel was gone from the earth and in need of restoration. 

are these four just very poor at ministering? 

 

 

Though some Latter-day Saints may not realize it, one of the reasons why the Lord promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church He established on earth is because He knew at least four ordained Melchizedek Priesthood holders, who were called and ordained by him in the days of His minisitry on earth, would remain on the earth during the time of the general apostasy. Like the Lord said, wherever two or more of His disciples are gathered in his name, He is with them. But as I said (and hope you will now retain in your memory) they were to remain almost exclusively incognito to everyone they met (and you surely must admit they couldn't remain incognito if they "blew their cover" to the world) except to a few individuals who would be commanded of God to remain silent about their encounter/encounters with these disciples "who tarried." 

 

Now two individuals who did meet the "translated" apostle John were Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, and this meeting took place when they were ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood; but in this instance an exception was made and their encounter with the resurrected Peter and James, and the translated John, was made public that the world might know from whence the priesthood authority of Joseph and Oliver came. 

 

One day the Lord will reveal what these four ordained men of God did and accomplished on here on earth as they remained incognito (remember?) during the long night of general apostasy, and when their deeds are revealed, I'm sure we'll all be amazed, impressed and very grateful for they wonderful works the did.

 

A couple question for you:

1) Do you believe, as per the Lord's conversation with Peter (quoted below), that John 'tarried" on the earth without tasting death?

2) If you believe he tarried on earth, do to believe he (John) remained here incognito? 

 

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? (John 21)

Edited January 12, 2015 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

 

do you believe John was breaking this commandment by authoring his gospel, his epistles and the book of Revelation, and as being quite publicly the head of the church in Ephesus during the 1st century? or was that commanded to him at some later time? 

you believe Nephi was written some 700 years before John disappeared from the historical record, right? 

 

 

 

The Book of Mormon tells us the three translated Nephite disciples did not go incognito until the Nephites entered a state of total apostasy from the truth, and this is likely what also happened in the case of John.

[Scott Lloyd]

if you have nothing to add but mocking and personal attacks, please forward those such comments to my PM box and try to stay on topic please. 

there are thousands of pages of bloviation on this forum already, but i'm looking for answers to some specific questions. 

thanks. 

You should ask yourself why your posts so often engender such response. Could it be because you appear so often to try to pose "gotcha" type questions that end up doing nothing more than betraying your own ignorance?

[ERayR]

You should ask yourself why your posts so often engender such response. Could it be because you appear so often to try to pose "gotcha" type questions that end up doing nothing more than betraying your own ignorance?

 

It is reassuring to me that I am not the only one that sees it that way.

[DarkScythe]

That was a pathetically bad attempt at a burn. Clearly I need to help you become a better troll so you can at least entertain a little bit. Let me give a short critique of this thread.

1) You gave the game away way too early. You hamfistedly put you whole troll plan in the OP. You wanted to try to use the John the Revelator/apostasy thing. Not original but we can work with it. You should have asked first if LDS genuinely believe he has been on the earth the whole time or something like that to establish that you are the innocent questioner you pretend to be. When they say yes you then ask how that fits into the apostasy thing. When they respond you pick the weakest explanation and poke a hole or two in it and offer your theory about John apostasizing.

2) Do not ask people to PM you with personal attacks. The truly masterful troll pretends they do not phase him or acts slightly wounded (but definitely not too much) or asks them nicely to stop. They do not blatantly ask everyone to hide them so they can enjoy them and he can continue trolling without being called out.

3) Do not passive aggressively quote scripture to try to get people to stop pointing out that you are a fraud. An innocent would never do this. It is basically painting your self green and holding up a sign saying: "I am a troll."

Hopefully this will help you do better on your next trolling thread. But for now:

D- See me after class

 

 

that is a good advice to troll. 

[cinepro]

according to D&C 7 the apostle John is still alive and on the earth somewhere, and has been ever since 1AD. 

also according to LDS tenets the 'true gospel' of Christ was gone from the earth until Joseph Smith re-instituted it; all other Christian belief being apostate. 

to date John has not stepped forward to endorse the BOM, any latter-day apostle or prophet, or any of the basic changes in theology between historical Christianity and Mormonism. many modern-day adherents of Christianity i've spoken to tell me that they are "waiting for John to become a Mormon" before they will accept LDS teaching, which seems a very reasonable argument, if indeed a living eyewitness of Christ's ministry is still with us. unless it is John who is a false teacher. 

it stands to reason that if John lives on, but the pure gospel was gone from the earth for ~1700 years or more, John must also have been apostate himself for that period, otherwise the teaching that there was no one on earth with the true gospel but Joseph Smith is false. 

so what is John's apostasy? why did John forsake the faith? why was John't priesthood removed? 

is it that he rejected the BOM 1900 years ago and continues to? or something else? was John already apostate when he wrote his gospel and letters and revelation? 

if the apostle John is an heretic apostate defrocked of his Melchizedek priesthood, how can any of us have assurance of keeping the faith? are we greater than John? 

 

thanks. 

 

Honestly, I think most LDS view the idea that John is still around as more of a myth.  He doesn't even get the respect of a canon of urban myth like the Three Nephites do.  He's just a footnote.

[Avatar4321]

John the Beloved will make a public appearance when it's time. Until then it's wise to not be a sign seeker.

[teddyaware]

Honestly, I think most LDS view the idea that John is still around as more of a myth.  He doesn't even get the respect of a canon of urban myth like the Three Nephites do.  He's just a footnote.

 

Perhaps it would be more accurate to rephrase your opening sentence by saying, "Honestly, I think most Latter-day Saints who don't believe the Book of Mormon is historically true and accurate, and who don't believe God is a God of miracles, view the idea that John is still around is more of a myth."

Edited January 12, 2015 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

Honestly, I think most LDS view the idea that John is still around as more of a myth.  He doesn't even get the respect of a canon of urban myth like the Three Nephites do.  He's just a footnote.

I agree. I am sure he can change tires as well as the Three Nephites can.

[ERayR]

I agree. I am sure he can change tires as well as the Three Nephites can.

 

Or families who have experience these contacts are learning to be more circumspect about to who and where they relate these experiences.

[toujours]

anyone else disappointed this wasn't about john dehlin?  

[ERayR]

anyone else disappointed this wasn't about john dehlin?  

 

NO!!!!

[The Nehor]

anyone else disappointed this wasn't about john dehlin?  

I was hoping it was about John the Baptist.

[Scott Lloyd]

Honestly, I think most LDS view the idea that John is still around as more of a myth.  He doesn't even get the respect of a canon of urban myth like the Three Nephites do.  He's just a footnote.

Whoah. I don't regard it as a myth, and this is the first time I've seen such a thing suggested.

[Calm]

Let no corrupt communication....

Does that include misrepresentations of others' beliefs or not....? Edited January 12, 2015 by calmoriah

[JLHPROF]

according to D&C 7 the apostle John is still alive and on the earth somewhere, and has been ever since 1AD. 

 

YEP!

also according to LDS tenets the 'true gospel' of Christ was gone from the earth until Joseph Smith re-instituted it; all other Christian belief being apostate. 

 

YEP! - John's role as a translated being was not to lead the earthly Church in mortality.

to date John has not stepped forward to endorse the BOM, any latter-day apostle or prophet, or any of the basic changes in theology between historical Christianity and Mormonism. many modern-day adherents of Christianity i've spoken to tell me that they are "waiting for John to become a Mormon" before they will accept LDS teaching, which seems a very reasonable argument, if indeed a living eyewitness of Christ's ministry is still with us. unless it is John who is a false teacher. 

 

 

AU CONTRAIRE - John met up with his resurrected buddies James and John to ordain Joseph Smith to the Melchezidek Priesthood in 1829

it stands to reason that if John lives on, but the pure gospel was gone from the earth for ~1700 years or more, John must also have been apostate himself for that period, otherwise the teaching that there was no one on earth with the true gospel but Joseph Smith is false. 

 

Nonsense.  There was no MORTAL living on the earth with the pure gospel or permission to bestow priesthood on others.  But priesthood will never 100% be taken from off the earth or it would be destroyed (in my opinion).  Priesthood has never left the earth since the time of Adam, although authority to organize God's Church/Kingdom has frequently been lost.

so what is John's apostasy? why did John forsake the faith? why was John't priesthood removed? 

is it that he rejected the BOM 1900 years ago and continues to? or something else? was John already apostate when he wrote his gospel and letters and revelation? 

if the apostle John is an heretic apostate defrocked of his Melchizedek priesthood, how can any of us have assurance of keeping the faith? are we greater than John? 

 

Utter nonsense, as I explained above.

 

thanks. 

[Ham Clam]

Deleted: Will not feed trolls.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Ham Clam

[Ham Clam]

That was a pathetically bad attempt at a burn. Clearly I need to help you become a better troll so you can at least entertain a little bit. Let me give a short critique of this thread.

1) You gave the game away way too early. You hamfistedly put you whole troll plan in the OP. You wanted to try to use the John the Revelator/apostasy thing. Not original but we can work with it. You should have asked first if LDS genuinely believe he has been on the earth the whole time or something like that to establish that you are the innocent questioner you pretend to be. When they say yes you then ask how that fits into the apostasy thing. When they respond you pick the weakest explanation and poke a hole or two in it and offer your theory about John apostasizing.

2) Do not ask people to PM you with personal attacks. The truly masterful troll pretends they do not phase him or acts slightly wounded (but definitely not too much) or asks them nicely to stop. They do not blatantly ask everyone to hide them so they can enjoy them and he can continue trolling without being called out.

3) Do not passive aggressively quote scripture to try to get people to stop pointing out that you are a fraud. An innocent would never do this. It is basically painting your self green and holding up a sign saying: "I am a troll."

Hopefully this will help you do better on your next trolling thread. But for now:

D- See me after class

Thank you, Nehor. Someday I will not learn the feed the trolls.

[Crypto]

Thank you, Nehor. Someday I will not learn the feed the trolls.

You must feed "trolls" better than some of the other forums because intra has visited several others, but hasn't been very active as of late. Actually I think it's stricter moderation.

[Ham Clam]

You must feed "trolls" better than some of the other forums because intra has visited several others, but hasn't been very active as of late. Actually I think it's stricter moderation.

I don't know how far a troll has to go to get banned/edited on this forum.

I can see how this forum is ripe for trolling though.

[ERayR]

I don't know how far a troll has to go to get banned/edited on this forum.

I can see how this forum is ripe for trolling though.

 

Some enjoy playing with them.  As for me after 3 or 4 trips around the Mulberry bush I get tired.

Edited January 13, 2015 by ERayR

[The Nehor]

Whoah. I don't regard it as a myth, and this is the first time I've seen such a thing suggested.

I am sure Cinepro's comment was facetious and a fine way to make a satirical jab at mormon three Nephite spotting folklore and not seriously suggesting that LDS accept one translation story and reject another.

[Scott Lloyd]

I am sure Cinepro's comment was facetious and a fine way to make a satirical jab at mormon three Nephite spotting folklore and not seriously suggesting that LDS accept one translation story and reject another.

Whatever. It just struck me as a weird comment.

[teddyaware]

For your entertainment and viewing pleasure -- an exceptionally crummy video of trolls dancing. Enjoy...

 

[intra]

A couple question for you:

1) Do you believe, as per the Lord's conversation with Peter (quoted below), that John 'tarried" on the earth without tasting death?

2) If you believe he tarried on earth, do to believe he (John) remained here incognito? 

 

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? (John 21)

nothing in the passage you quoted indicates to me that John did not die. on the contrary, Jesus seemed to be rebuking Peter for focusing on John's eventual fate - which seems in keeping with the larger context of the disciples having some form rivalry among them (ex. Matthew 20:20-28), and John makes the effort to specifically address what had become a rumor about him, making it clear 'Jesus did not say this.'

that leaves the question of whether John 'tarried' explicitly inconclusive and by implication doubtful. 

it is Joseph Smith's teaching, and not the teaching of the Bible, that John is still walking on earth. this isn't a "proof text" - if anything, it specifically casts doubt on what the D&C affirms. 

the reason i made this thread (contrary to the presumption of those who have nothing but curses in their mouths) is to try to address logical inconsistency that arises in my mind when i try to understand how this could be so. 

it is not clear to me how that John could have been instructed to "make disciples of all nations" and left on earth specifically to continue ministering if the net result was that the true faith should be gone from the earth even in John's presence. 

the conclusion that was pointed out by another one in this thread, that the priesthood instead was never removed from the earth, is a lot more satisfactory if John was neither apostate nor removed. this however is a blot against the notion that the priesthood had need to be restored, because that notion implies the priesthood was not in existence.