John's Apostasy?

[intra]

according to D&C 7 the apostle John is still alive and on the earth somewhere, and has been ever since 1AD. 

also according to LDS tenets the 'true gospel' of Christ was gone from the earth until Joseph Smith re-instituted it; all other Christian belief being apostate. 

to date John has not stepped forward to endorse the BOM, any latter-day apostle or prophet, or any of the basic changes in theology between historical Christianity and Mormonism. many modern-day adherents of Christianity i've spoken to tell me that they are "waiting for John to become a Mormon" before they will accept LDS teaching, which seems a very reasonable argument, if indeed a living eyewitness of Christ's ministry is still with us. unless it is John who is a false teacher. 

it stands to reason that if John lives on, but the pure gospel was gone from the earth for ~1700 years or more, John must also have been apostate himself for that period, otherwise the teaching that there was no one on earth with the true gospel but Joseph Smith is false. 

so what is John's apostasy? why did John forsake the faith? why was John't priesthood removed? 
is it that he rejected the BOM 1900 years ago and continues to? or something else? was John already apostate when he wrote his gospel and letters and revelation? 

if the apostle John is an heretic apostate defrocked of his Melchizedek priesthood, how can any of us have assurance of keeping the faith? are we greater than John? 
 

thanks. 

 

[ERayR]

according to D&C 7 the apostle John is still alive and on the earth somewhere, and has been ever since 1AD. 

also according to LDS tenets the 'true gospel' of Christ was gone from the earth until Joseph Smith re-instituted it; all other Christian belief being apostate. 

to date John has not stepped forward to endorse the BOM, any latter-day apostle or prophet, or any of the basic changes in theology between historical Christianity and Mormonism. many modern-day adherents of Christianity i've spoken to tell me that they are "waiting for John to become a Mormon" before they will accept LDS teaching, which seems a very reasonable argument, if indeed a living eyewitness of Christ's ministry is still with us. unless it is John who is a false teacher. 

it stands to reason that if John lives on, but the pure gospel was gone from the earth for ~1700 years or more, John must also have been apostate himself for that period, otherwise the teaching that there was no one on earth with the true gospel but Joseph Smith is false. 

so what is John's apostasy? why did John forsake the faith? why was John't priesthood removed? 

is it that he rejected the BOM 1900 years ago and continues to? or something else? was John already apostate when he wrote his gospel and letters and revelation? 

if the apostle John is an heretic apostate defrocked of his Melchizedek priesthood, how can any of us have assurance of keeping the faith? are we greater than John? 

 

thanks. 

 

I never cease to be amazed at the lack of your understanding of all things Mormon and how it leads to some very twisted but sometimes amusing logic.

[Kenngo1969]

Welp, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm convinced!  

 

Will the last person to leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints please turn out the lights.

[ERayR]

Welp, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm convinced!  

 

Will the last person to leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints please turn out the lights.

 

That may be me as I have a real stubborn streak.

[thesometimesaint]

Someone back in the 60's did too much LDS.

Edited January 12, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Rofl. What a thread.

[intra]

I never cease to be amazed at the lack of your understanding of all things Mormon and how it leads to some very twisted but sometimes amusing logic.

if you have nothing to add but mocking and personal attacks, please forward those such comments to my PM box and try to stay on topic please. 

there are thousands of pages of bloviation on this forum already, but i'm looking for answers to some specific questions. 

thanks. 

[thesometimesaint]

John 21:20-23

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

 21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

[Michael Sanders]

to date John has not stepped forward to endorse the BOM, any latter-day apostle or prophet, or any of the basic changes in theology between historical Christianity and Mormonism. many modern-day adherents of Christianity i've spoken to tell me that they are "waiting for John to become a Mormon" before they will accept LDS teaching, which seems a very reasonable argument...

intra,

This reminds me of the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16 which is representative of the idea that for some, if not many - the continual clamoring for "proof" that they will not "believe" anyway is sufficient to delver them from certain judgment. The parables treatment of such a one is perhaps applicable to your strange method of witnessing (?) by feigning to ask sincere questions and have a real dialogue - when its becoming apparent that you prefer more of a "drive-by" method. If I have misjudged your intentions then we have deeper problems to consider.

"For I have five brethren, that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham said unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham; but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one should rise from the dead." - Luke 16:32-36

Of course we would substitute "Book of Mormon & Latter-Day Revelations" for "Moses & The Prophets" to bring the parable up-to-date and applicable to this thread. But if John or one from the dead were to come would you be persuaded? If so, why not just believe the prophets?

Mike Sanders

Book of Mormon Believer

Independence, MO

[teddyaware]

according to D&C 7 the apostle John is still alive and on the earth somewhere, and has been ever since 1AD. 

also according to LDS tenets the 'true gospel' of Christ was gone from the earth until Joseph Smith re-instituted it; all other Christian belief being apostate. 

to date John has not stepped forward to endorse the BOM, any latter-day apostle or prophet, or any of the basic changes in theology between historical Christianity and Mormonism. many modern-day adherents of Christianity i've spoken to tell me that they are "waiting for John to become a Mormon" before they will accept LDS teaching, which seems a very reasonable argument, if indeed a living eyewitness of Christ's ministry is still with us. unless it is John who is a false teacher. 

it stands to reason that if John lives on, but the pure gospel was gone from the earth for ~1700 years or more, John must also have been apostate himself for that period, otherwise the teaching that there was no one on earth with the true gospel but Joseph Smith is false. 

so what is John's apostasy? why did John forsake the faith? why was John't priesthood removed? 

is it that he rejected the BOM 1900 years ago and continues to? or something else? was John already apostate when he wrote his gospel and letters and revelation? 

if the apostle John is an heretic apostate defrocked of his Melchizedek priesthood, how can any of us have assurance of keeping the faith? are we greater than John? 

 

thanks. 

 

If you'd only do a little research before composing posts like this one, you could save yourself a lot of embarrassment as you come off here as just another anti-Mormon who tries too hard to find fault with the religion of the Latter-day Saints.

 

The answer to your question is simple: The Latter-day Saints believe both John and his three "translated" Nephite counterparts were commanded, except under very rare unpublicized circumstances, to remain strictly incognito to the human race while they tarried on here earth.

 

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not. (3 Nephi 28)

 

So John and the three Nephites were under command of the Lord to not make themselves known to the world, but rather to "work behind the scenes" to help bring forth the great restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ and prepare the world for the Second Coming of the Savior. So you see, John and the three Nephites couldn't do what you seem to want them to do and at the same time keep God's commandment to remain incognito to the inhabitants of the earth.

 

Next time do yourself a favor and do some research so you won't have to embarrass yourself again...

Edited January 12, 2015 by teddyaware

[JAHS]

The Book of Mormon explains the condition of John the Revelator and the three nephites:

 

"Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand." (3 Nephi 28: 8-9)

 

John saw the apostasy in his revelation:

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she [had] a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days [years]." (JST)

 

The "woman" (representing the Church) fleeing into the wilderness is a representation of the beginnings of the apostasy which ended in 1830 when the Church was formally organized,

 

John was not in apostasy but he saw that the world would be and accepted that condition. Now that the church is restored and the priesthood and Holy Ghost are back on the earth, he is free to assist in bringing the souls of men to Christ.

[intra]

The Latter-day Saints believe both John and his three "translated" Nephite counterparts were commanded, except under very rare unpublicized circumstances, to remain strictly incognito to the human race while they tarried on here earth.

 

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not. (3 Nephi 28)

was Jesus incognito? 

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

(John 1:10) 

hearing that not one, but 4 bearers of the true testimony of Christ remain on the earth all this time, i am at even more of a loss as to ken how that the gospel was gone from the earth and in need of restoration. 

are these four just very poor at ministering? 

 

[Kenngo1969]

That may be me as I have a real stubborn streak.

Good for you!  Hold out as long as you live, Brother!  Don't be like the rest of us weaklings!

[ERayR]

if you have nothing to add but mocking and personal attacks, please forward those such comments to my PM box and try to stay on topic please. 

there are thousands of pages of bloviation on this forum already, but i'm looking for answers to some specific questions. 

thanks. 

 

Your question can not be answered as it is based on false assumptions you have.  I was just noting that the majority of your question (if not all) about things Mormon are based on your lack of understanding of all things Mormon and it affects the logic behind your questions often in humorous, head shaking, ways.  I'm sorry if that offends you but if you want to rectify it change your approach.

[intra]

Your question can not be answered as it is based on false assumptions you have.  I was just noting that the majority of your question (if not all) about things Mormon are based on your lack of understanding of all things Mormon and it affects the logic behind your questions often in humorous, head shaking, ways.  I'm sorry if that offends you but if you want to rectify it change your approach.

again, if you want to talk about me, send me a private message. as i understand it, neither making public personal attacks on me or ignoring the thread topic are in keeping with the purpose of this discussion board. 

thanks. 

 

[The Nehor]

if you have nothing to add but mocking and personal attacks, please forward those such comments to my PM box and try to stay on topic please. 

there are thousands of pages of bloviation on this forum already, but i'm looking for answers to some specific questions. 

thanks. 

I think everyone here will agree with me that we prefer to mock and attack you publicly. Doing it privately admittedly has its charms but the lack of an audience dampers the fun a bit too much.

Also, stop lying. You are not looking for answers. You have all the subtlety of a bull in a china shop. Only a moron would believe you sincere. It is degrading enough being a troll that you should at least aspire to be a talented one. Take some pride in your work!

[Ham Clam]

It's more like your asking "If this is the truth, why doesn't something mystical just happen to convince me and everyone else?"

[intra]

The Latter-day Saints believe both John and his three "translated" Nephite counterparts were commanded, except under very rare unpublicized circumstances, to remain strictly incognito to the human race while they tarried on here earth.

 

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not. (3 Nephi 28)

 

do you believe John was breaking this commandment by authoring his gospel, his epistles and the book of Revelation, and as being quite publicly the head of the church in Ephesus during the 1st century? or was that commanded to him at some later time? 

you believe Nephi was written some 700 years before John disappeared from the historical record, right? 

 

[intra]

I think everyone here will agree with me that we prefer to mock and attack you publicly. 

plainly it is true as it is written, "whoever corrects a mocker invites insults" 

isn't it also a good saying: 

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

(Ephesians 4:29) 

?

 

 

[Ham Clam]

I think everyone here will agree with me that we prefer to mock and attack you publicly. Doing it privately admittedly has its charms but the lack of an audience dampers the fun a bit too much.

Also, stop lying. You are not looking for answers. You have all the subtlety of a bull in a china shop. Only a moron would believe you sincere. It is degrading enough being a troll that you should at least aspire to be a talented one. Take some pride in your work!

Most of your posts, intra, seem to be either preaching or accusing. You'll probably have to reveal yourself personally a little more (have you introduced yourself somewhere?) to kind of gain some cred/trust on this board. It's just how it is. Where are you coming from and why? You are currently giving off a "holy than thou" vibe.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Ham Clam

[ERayR]

 

do you believe John was breaking this commandment by authoring his gospel, his epistles and the book of Revelation, and as being quite publicly the head of the church in Ephesus during the 1st century? or was that commanded to him at some later time? 

you believe Nephi was written some 700 years before John disappeared from the historical record, right? 

 

 

 

Not really, well maybe, perhaps but with all that time on his hands and what with no tv he really had to have something to do.

[ERayR]

isn't it also a good saying: 

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

(Ephesians 4:29) 

?

 

.

Please just read the responses to your "questions" and try to comprehend.  Believe me you will be edified.

[intra]

 

It's more like your asking "If this is the truth, why doesn't something mystical just happen to convince me and everyone else?"

you mean something like: 

But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, 

and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. 

? 

​

[ERayR]

 

 

you mean something like: 

But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, 

and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. 

? 

​

 

 

Yuuup.

[The Nehor]

That was a pathetically bad attempt at a burn. Clearly I need to help you become a better troll so you can at least entertain a little bit. Let me give a short critique of this thread.

1) You gave the game away way too early. You hamfistedly put you whole troll plan in the OP. You wanted to try to use the John the Revelator/apostasy thing. Not original but we can work with it. You should have asked first if LDS genuinely believe he has been on the earth the whole time or something like that to establish that you are the innocent questioner you pretend to be. When they say yes you then ask how that fits into the apostasy thing. When they respond you pick the weakest explanation and poke a hole or two in it and offer your theory about John apostasizing.

2) Do not ask people to PM you with personal attacks. The truly masterful troll pretends they do not phase him or acts slightly wounded (but definitely not too much) or asks them nicely to stop. They do not blatantly ask everyone to hide them so they can enjoy them and he can continue trolling without being called out.

3) Do not passive aggressively quote scripture to try to get people to stop pointing out that you are a fraud. An innocent would never do this. It is basically painting your self green and holding up a sign saying: "I am a troll."

Hopefully this will help you do better on your next trolling thread. But for now:

D- See me after class