Universal Apostasy Or Not?

[Bob Betts]

According to Preach My Gospel:

"After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrines of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrines were corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost."

But, according to D&C 7:1-3:

1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my abeloved, what bdesirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.

5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.

So, this is one Apostle that never died, carrying priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, with permission to NEVER taste death, with power OVER death, and the ability to bring souls to Christ, and prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people, until Christ returns.

Then there are the three Nephites, asking for and receiving the same things that John asked for and received, according to 3 Nephi 28:

4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste ofdeath; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the cpowers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

And, after a brief transfiguration experience, about which they were commanded not to speak, their work began. According to 3 Nephi 28:18 they were doing what John was doing, as priesthood holders with the keys to the kingdom, "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost."

Further, in verse 23, it is confirmed that the three priesthood-holding Nephites were busy building up the church:

And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the agospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of bthat generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.

The dates at the bottom of these pages is A.D. 34-35.

Again, following a time when the Jews and Gentiles shall know them not, then

29 it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

They will do great and Marvelous works, even among the Gentiles (vs. 30-32). And, anyone who doesn't hearken unto their words, Christ will not receive at the last day (vs. 34-35).

Now, in the land of Zarahemla, (Mormon 1:13) the beloved disciples were taken away because "wickedness did prevail," and their work "did cease because of the iniquity of the people." The date at the bottom of the page is A.D. 322. So, up until this date, they were still ministering.

In the final BoM account of those "disciples of Jesus," Mormon and Moroni were ministered to by them:

Mormon 8:10 And there are none that do know the true God save it be the disciples of Jesus, who did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people was so great that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land no man knoweth.

11 But behold, my father and I have seen them, and they have ministered unto us.

The date at the bottom of the page is A.D. 401. So, up until this date, they were still ministering.

In light of the above Mormon scriptures, you have four priesthood holders bringing souls to Christ until He shall return, uniting people to the church who believed their preaching, and baptizing them in both water and the Holy Ghost, with known visitations of them as late as 401 A.D., exercizing their ministerial authority.

So, how can Preach My Gospel claim that, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth"? That's not the story I'm getting from the LDS scriptures.

[The_Monk]

Generally speaking, priesthood WAS no longer on the earth.

"presiding priesthood authority" is what was gone. Ministering isn't the same thing as presiding.

[Anijen]

In light of the above Mormon scriptures, you have four priesthood holders bringing souls to Christ until He shall return, uniting people to the church who believed their preaching, and baptizing them in both water and the Holy Ghost, with known visitations of them as late as 401 A.D., exercizing their ministerial authority.

So, how can Preach My Gospel claim that, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth"? That's not the story I'm getting from the LDS scriptures.

Some possible reasoning;

They can build up the church by preparing the way. Many Missionaries in Russia would be told that their investigators were taught by some unknown person prior to the missionaries arriving also many of these Russian investigators would dream about the missionaries before they entered into their Russian towns.

Just because the Priesthood was on the earth via John and the three Nephites does not mean it was used for restoring the church. They might have had the priesthood but not the authority (keys) to do some of the things needed.

The level of unrighteousness that existed was prevalent enough to keep them for restoring the fullness of the gospel.

They were instructed not to.

[bluebell]

According to Preach My Gospel:

But, according to D&C 7:1-3: So, this is one Apostle that never died, carrying priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, with permission to NEVER taste death, with power OVER death, and the ability to bring souls to Christ, and prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people, until Christ returns.

Then there are the three Nephites, asking for and receiving the same things that John asked for and received, according to 3 Nephi 28:

And, after a brief transfiguration experience, about which they were commanded not to speak, their work began. According to 3 Nephi 28:18 they were doing what John was doing, as priesthood holders with the keys to the kingdom, "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost."

Further, in verse 23, it is confirmed that the three priesthood-holding Nephites were busy building up the church: The dates at the bottom of these pages is A.D. 34-35.

Again, following a time when the Jews and Gentiles shall know them not, then

They will do great and Marvelous works, even among the Gentiles (vs. 30-32). And, anyone who doesn't hearken unto their words, Christ will not receive at the last day (vs. 34-35).

Now, in the land of Zarahemla, (Mormon 1:13) the beloved disciples were taken away because "wickedness did prevail," and their work "did cease because of the iniquity of the people." The date at the bottom of the page is A.D. 322. So, up until this date, they were still ministering.

In the final BoM account of those "disciples of Jesus," Mormon and Moroni were ministered to by them: The date at the bottom of the page is A.D. 401. So, up until this date, they were still ministering.

In light of the above Mormon scriptures, you have four priesthood holders bringing souls to Christ until He shall return, uniting people to the church who believed their preaching, and baptizing them in both water and the Holy Ghost, with known visitations of them as late as 401 A.D., exercizing their ministerial authority.

So, how can Preach My Gospel claim that, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth"? That's not the story I'm getting from the LDS scriptures.

I was basically going to say what monk said.

I also want to add that generally speaking-the apostasy is about mortals being without priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, not about the earth being completely void of Beings who held the priesthood.

I resolve this issue the same way mainstream Christians resolve the words of amos in chapter 8-

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it."

most mainstream Christians tell me that this famine of the word of God occured before Christ was born-

A fair answer, i suppose, but if we really want to get tricky about it, we could ask how can there be a famine of the word of God when God obviously exists and can give His word whenever He chooses to?

If God is ALWAYS capable of visiting the earth, then how can anyone ever say the earth will be without His words?

Well, because just because God is capable of providing such wisdom doesn't mean He always will. It doesn't mean that He will restore knowledge when it is lost or confused or even give it when it is desperately sought after.

Hence, we have a world that God can communicate with-but with which He chooses not to, for His own reasons.

Likewise-just because there were immortal beings who were capable of accessing mortals on the earth does not mean that God allowed them to do so to restore truths lost or preside in priesthood offices.

God allowed the Apostasy to happen-it wasn't an accident. He could have stopped it at anytime. It's not a question of it HAVING to happen because of the choices of men but rather it had to happen because God purposely allowed the choices of men to prevail for a time.

[Bob Betts]

Generally speaking, priesthood WAS no longer on the earth.

"presiding priesthood authority" is what was gone. Ministering isn't the same thing as presiding.

The Preach My Gospel statement is either true or false.

Since John was an Apostle who never died, and was given the "power and the keys of this ministry," by Christ, then "presiding priesthood authority" was still on the earth. If the Nephites had the same directive from Christ, being granted the same request as John's, then four men maintained presiding priesthood authority.

[Anijen]

The Preach My Gospel statement is either true or false.

Since John was an Apostle who never died, and was given the "power and the keys of this ministry," by Christ, then "presiding priesthood authority" was still on the earth. If the Nephites had the same directive from Christ, being granted the same request as John's, then four men maintained presiding priesthood authority.

Some people understand universal apostasy as there is none, zilch, nada... It means the Church was not on the earth during this time. There were many people who received individual revelation for them selves (Joseph Smiths father, Martin Luther etc...) there were it least four men that has been mentioned that had the priesthood but were not holding the keys of the administration of the church at that time. Bob, this is a weak argument that the church is false.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The Preach My Gospel statement is either true or false.

Since John was an Apostle who never died, and was given the "power and the keys of this ministry," by Christ, then "presiding priesthood authority" was still on the earth. If the Nephites had the same directive from Christ, being granted the same request as John's, then four men maintained presiding priesthood authority.

IT is true. You did not understand monks post. I will wait until he clairifies it.

[Doctor Steuss]

I smell a false dichotomy.

Maybe it's just lunch...

[Bob Betts]

Some possible reasoning;

They can build up the church by preparing the way.

It doesn't say they prepared the way. It says they were granted to bring souls to Christ, until Christ's return. It's says hey were adding to the church, those who believed, and were baptizing both in water and the HG. That's more than just preparation.

Many Missionaries in Russia would be told that their investigators were taught by some unknown person prior to the missionaries arriving also many of these Russian investigators would dream about the missionaries before they entered into their Russian towns.

Just because the Priesthood was on the earth via John and the three Nephites does not mean it was used for restoring the church.

No, my point is that, because the "presiding priesthood authority" never left the earth, but brought souls to Christ and added to the church, there never WAS an apostasy, Therefore, nothing to restore.

They might have had the priesthood but not the authority (keys) to do some of the things needed.

Not according to what I pointed out above. D&C 7:7 says the keys were held by John, and 3 Nephi 28 says the three Nephites received the same privilege granted to John.

The level of unrighteousness that existed was prevalent enough to keep them for restoring the fullness of the gospel.

They were instructed not to.

If there was no universal apostasy, there was no need for a restoration. There has to be a universal apostasy, for there to be a need for a restoration.

[Bob Betts]

I was basically going to say what monk said.

I also want to add that generally speaking-the apostasy is about mortals being without priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, not about the earth being completely void of Beings who held the priesthood.

The statement reads, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth." But, there WAS one Apostle AND three Nephites with priesthood keys. How could Preach My Gospel claim they were taken from the earth, with the death of the Apostles?

[T-Shirt]

Bob,

When Christ was on the earth, he set up an organization which ultimately culminated in the establishment of His earthly church, governed by His apostles. Even though John and the three Nephites were allowed to remain without death, they do not constitute the earthly church of Christ. You already posted a verse from the Book of Mormon which explained that when the people became so wicked, the three Nephites were not allowed to remain among them. The role of John and the three Nephites was not to preside over a continuous congregation of Christ's church, We don't know, precisely what assignments these men have had over the centuries, but we do know they were not known to the world and they did not preside over any earthly organization. The apostasy did occur and a restoration was necessary. The fact that John and the three Nephites filled some role on earth does not negate the fact that an apostasy occurred.

T-Shirt

[structurecop]

The statement reads, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth." But, there WAS one Apostle AND three Nephites with priesthood keys. How could Preach My Gospel claim they were taken from the earth, with the death of the Apostles?

Christ still called the apostate Temple "my Father's house." Even in apostasy, an element of righteousness can exist. I guess.

[Bob Betts]

Some people understand universal apostasy as there is none, zilch, nada... It means the Church was not on the earth during this time.

Jesus said, wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the mist (Matt. 18:20). The four were granted to bring souls to Christ until His return. They were adding to the church, according to 3 Nephi 28:18, 23. Accordingly, then, the church was still on the earth until Christ's return.

There were many people who received individual revelation for them selves (Joseph Smiths father, Martin Luther etc...) there were it least four men that has been mentioned that had the priesthood but were not holding the keys of the administration of the church at that time.

But, the LDS scriptures I quoted indicate they DID have the keys.

Bob, this is a weak argument that the church is false.

Thank you for your opinion.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The statement reads, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth." But, there WAS one Apostle AND three Nephites with priesthood keys. How could Preach My Gospel claim they were taken from the earth, with the death of the Apostles?

Bob,

IT has been pointed out that preisthood keys and presiding authority through the preisthood are diffrent things. In other words ministering to poeple. Also it is ambigous at best with the current connon of scripture to come to any conclusion as to what John and the 3 Nephites were doing during the apostacy. It is possible that God commanded them to not preach or to ordain preists. Like I said it is pure speculation one way or another. Clearly you see this as some sort of false hood of the church. I do not. I believe JS is a true prophet, Tell me in the grand scheme of things what could I possible gain in knowing all of the details of JOhn and the 3 nephites over the past 1500 years of thier life?

Bob,

When Christ was on the earth, he set up an organization which ultimately culminated in the establishment of His earthly church, governed by His apostles. Even though John and the three Nephites were allowed to remain without death, they do not constitute the earthly church of Christ. You already posted a verse from the Book of Mormon which explained that when the people became so wicked, the three Nephites were not allowed to remain among them. The role of John and the three Nephites was not to preside over a continuous congregation of Christ's church, We don't know, precisely what assignments these men have had over the centuries, but we do know they were not known to the world and they did not preside over any earthly organization. The apostasy did occur and a restoration was necessary. The fact that John and the three Nephites filled some role on earth does not negate the fact that an apostasy occurred.

T-Shirt

I concour.

[Geaux LSU]

...

Since John was an Apostle who never died, and was given the "power and the keys of this ministry," by Christ, then "presiding priesthood authority" was still on the earth. ...

Can you point us to the Apostle John and show us exactly what he has been presiding over?

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Jesus said, wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in the mist (Matt. 18:20). The four were granted to bring souls to Christ until His return. They were adding to the church, according to 3 Nephi 28:18, 23. Accordingly, then, the church was still on the earth until Christ's return.

But, the LDS scriptures I quoted indicate they DID have the keys.

Thank you for your opinion.

First paragraph: The scripture referred to was in 34-35 AD when the Nephites were being visited by Jesus Christ...

They were forbidden to minister according to Mormon 1 in the 300s AD because the people had gotten so wicked. The same passed with Mormon himself being forbidden to minister because his army had gotten so wicked.

To change the subject...when a people are wicked and not prepared to receive Christ it is unwise to send missionaries to that part of the world. I would know. In SE Mexico there are many towns that would love to 'grease' a missionary. Obviously there are no missionaries in these towns...but I digress

Second part: Using the Book of Mormon to applicate the Biblical church in the first and second century AD makes absolutely no sense considering there was no internet, email, cellphones, nada asi during that time.

Third part: We value your opinion though it proves nothing about what your goals are...

[Deborah]

This really is a very simple concept. Regardless of what keys some translated beings may have held, they were not the earthly church. It is a great exercise in sophistry to say that because a few non-mortal beings had the Priesthood keys therefore an Apostasy did not occur. Where were the "apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" spoken of by Paul in the organization of the church. They had been taken away as had the organization itself.

[Bob Betts]

Bob,

When Christ was on the earth, he set up an organization which ultimately culminated in the establishment of His earthly church, governed by His apostles. Even though John and the three Nephites were allowed to remain without death, they do not constitute the earthly church of Christ.

Reread 3 Nephi 28:18 and 23, and realize that they were granted to do what they were doing until Christ's return.

You already posted a verse from the Book of Mormon which explained that when the people became so wicked, the three Nephites were not allowed to remain among them.

But, there are also other verses I quoted, that they would bring souls to Christ, going to all the scattered tribes of Israel, nations, kindreds, tongues and people. So, leaving the land of Zarahemla didn't end their priesthood calling by a longshot.

The role of John and the three Nephites was not to preside over a continuous congregation of Christ's church,

That's not the question.

We don't know, precisely what assignments these men have had over the centuries,

Sure we do. I quoted them from 3 Nephi and D&C 7.

but we do know they were not known to the world and they did not preside over any earthly organization.

But, that's wasn't my question, whether they presided over any one church.

The apostasy did occur and a restoration was necessary.

Only if priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The existence of the four, having the power and keys of Christ's ministry, refutes that claim.

The fact that John and the three Nephites filled some role on earth does not negate the fact that an apostasy occurred.

I disagree. I itemized from 3 Nephi, what their roles were. We know exactly what they were doing. See above, or reread 3 Nephi 28.

[Deborah]

Bob, you shouldn't quote LDS scripture to LDS to support your arguments when you don't understand what the scriptures mean.

[bluebell]

The Preach My Gospel statement is either true or false.

Since John was an Apostle who never died, and was given the "power and the keys of this ministry," by Christ, then "presiding priesthood authority" was still on the earth. If the Nephites had the same directive from Christ, being granted the same request as John's, then four men maintained presiding priesthood authority.

It's true, because John and the three nephites, once they were no longer mortal, were also no longer presiding over the church that Christ set up on the earth.

To preside means, among other things, to act as the president or chairperson of an organization-and there is no mention of them any of these men being called to do that once they were immortal.

This was not what they were called to do and was not one of their responsibilities.

The statement is also true because it accurately describes the reason the apostasy came about-that it was the loss of the presiding leaders of the Christ's church and worthy priesthood holders that lead to that the priesthood vanishing from the earth and the apostasy of Christ's church.

[Bob Betts]

Christ still called the apostate Temple "my Father's house." Even in apostasy, an element of righteousness can exist. I guess.

I don't know what an "apostate temple" is. But, this really doesn't answer the question, either.

[Deborah]

I don't know what an "apostate temple" is. But, this really doesn't answer the question, either.

The question has been answered by several people; you're just not listening.

[Geaux LSU]

Bob appears to be formatting quotes of posters properly. Why are the quotes not showing in a box? It's very difficult for me to follow long posts that are not broken up.

[PacMan]

Easy.

Yes...it's universal. Why? Because, the priesthood was taken FROM the earth, not OFF the earth. It is a semantic differences that is erroneously read in, and erroneously perpetuated.

Cheers,

PacMan

[bluebell]

Easy.

Yes...it's universal. Why? Because, the priesthood was taken FROM the earth, not OFF the earth. It is a semantic differences that is erroneously read in, and erroneously perpetuated.

Cheers,

PacMan

and pac man says in a few sentences what the rest of us have been rambling out.