Accepting Explanations Of Mysteries

[MiserereNobis]

As pointed out in the OP, there seems (to me, at least) to be a cultural current in Mormonism that looks at mysteries as something negative.  This interests me because in Catholicism, at least, the mysteries of God are something beautiful and to be cherished.  I like the Harold B. Lee quote because he is essentially saying, "this is a mystery, let it go."  It seems that often the highest, deepest (pick your metaphor) truths are experienced through ways that are not rational or logical.  The problem is when we try to tell someone about these experiences they most often want to have some sort of description in words and logic.  I can say that while on retreat at a Benedictine monastery I had an experience that taught me about God and His relation to us, but unfortunately I can't really put it into words -- the words fall short and are ultimately confusing and raise follow-up questions that I can't really answer.  It is still a mystery and I still glorify in that mystery because my rational logical mind cannot understand nor explain it.

 

The mystery of faith is deep, indeed

[thesometimesaint]

As pointed out in the OP, there seems (to me, at least) to be a cultural current in Mormonism that looks at mysteries as something negative.  This interests me because in Catholicism, at least, the mysteries of God are something beautiful and to be cherished.  I like the Harold B. Lee quote because he is essentially saying, "this is a mystery, let it go."  It seems that often the highest, deepest (pick your metaphor) truths are experienced through ways that are not rational or logical.  The problem is when we try to tell someone about these experiences they most often want to have some sort of description in words and logic.  I can say that while on retreat at a Benedictine monastery I had an experience that taught me about God and His relation to us, but unfortunately I can't really put it into words -- the words fall short and are ultimately confusing and raise follow-up questions that I can't really answer.  It is still a mystery and I still glorify in that mystery because my rational logical mind cannot understand nor explain it.

 

The mystery of faith is deep, indeed

 

Preach the Gospel, sometimes use words.

[strappinglad]

Sometimes the answers we get depend on the questions we ask. For example, if I ask if cars are made by hand , the answer could be yes. If I ask if cars are made by robots, the answer can also be yes. If two different people received the same answer to different questions, they would then argue over which ' revelation' was correct. That must be why there is only one person on earth who is authorized to speak to the world as " thus sayeth the Lord ".

[Ahab]

Personal revelation. Yep ain't it great?

Yep.

Oh come now I would bet that right now you have a belief or two that will probably turn out to be less true than you now believe.

That sounds like conjecture on your part and if I were you I'd make sure to recognize it as that.

[ERayR]

That sounds like conjecture on your part and if I were you I'd make sure to recognize it as that.

 

A pretty safe one.  No intelligent, inquisitive person I know does not maintain some belief that they are searching for evidence to substantiate. 

[Rob Osborn]

I have come to realize that the mysteries can be unfolded to us- each and everyone of us. I also know that just because the LDS church is true, or at least claims such, not every doctrine put out by the church is truth.

[mfbukowski]

As pointed out in the OP, there seems (to me, at least) to be a cultural current in Mormonism that looks at mysteries as something negative.  This interests me because in Catholicism, at least, the mysteries of God are something beautiful and to be cherished.  I like the Harold B. Lee quote because he is essentially saying, "this is a mystery, let it go."  It seems that often the highest, deepest (pick your metaphor) truths are experienced through ways that are not rational or logical.  The problem is when we try to tell someone about these experiences they most often want to have some sort of description in words and logic.  I can say that while on retreat at a Benedictine monastery I had an experience that taught me about God and His relation to us, but unfortunately I can't really put it into words -- the words fall short and are ultimately confusing and raise follow-up questions that I can't really answer.  It is still a mystery and I still glorify in that mystery because my rational logical mind cannot understand nor explain it.

 

The mystery of faith is deep, indeed

Thanks, Brother.

 

Power to the purple- right arm!

[CV75]

So to conclude, yes we don't have all the answers revealed with 100% clarity.  But in the absence of a better, more reliable revelation, does it really hurt anything to believe the only available explanations from prophets?  It makes us look weird and different to the outsiders, but for the faithful, where's the harm?

I don’t think so, since “explanation” is often very different than “revelation” and it is up to us to discern the difference, according to our capacity. Where there is no revelation, any explanation will do; problems arise when new revelation is rejected (or demanded) because of contention over an explanation. I think it is up to us to discern and reject the spirit of contention as well. On the same note, it doesn’t really hurt anything not to believe a prophet's explanation, as long as the Holy Ghost is defining our character in how we respond to his explanation and always choose the revelations and covenants over that.

[mfbukowski]

As pointed out in the OP, there seems (to me, at least) to be a cultural current in Mormonism that looks at mysteries as something negative.  This interests me because in Catholicism, at least, the mysteries of God are something beautiful and to be cherished.  I like the Harold B. Lee quote because he is essentially saying, "this is a mystery, let it go."  It seems that often the highest, deepest (pick your metaphor) truths are experienced through ways that are not rational or logical.  The problem is when we try to tell someone about these experiences they most often want to have some sort of description in words and logic.  I can say that while on retreat at a Benedictine monastery I had an experience that taught me about God and His relation to us, but unfortunately I can't really put it into words -- the words fall short and are ultimately confusing and raise follow-up questions that I can't really answer.  It is still a mystery and I still glorify in that mystery because my rational logical mind cannot understand nor explain it.

 

The mystery of faith is deep, indeed

Part of this misunderstanding is Mormon Jargon.

 

When you hear "Don't dwell on the mysteries" it does not mean those words- what it means is "Receive your own personal revelation, but don't talk about it".

 

As should be clear on this entire forum, that just leads to confusion over words.  What it is saying is "Keep it simple, stupid, and don't confuse people with your own wacky ideas".

 

This is part and parcel of our lack of doctrine on just about anything except items of behavior.  Mormonism is about behavior, not about doctrine, except for the vague "biggies" like Joseph being a prophet, believing in The Christ, keeping one's pants on appropriately, and following one's own heart for most of the rest.

 

That's about it really.

[Ahab]

A pretty safe one. No intelligent, inquisitive person I know does not maintain some belief that they are searching for evidence to substantiate.

I conjecture and even have some pet theories but I don't believe in them in the sense of believing they're true, just more likely than some other possibilities, and may even turn out to be true.

[mnn727]

Thank you for proving my point.  In the absence of revealed absolute knowledge, all we have is conjecture.

And thanks to Cinepro for providing my CFR for me.

 

My question remains, is there any reason not to believe the conjecture until a better choice comes along?

Is there any reason for not saying "We don't know" ?

Sorry, but in this life, we're just not going to have all the answers-- and that's O.K.

[mnn727]

Don't you find that method of belief rather dull?

Not at all. I guess I just have too many of the basics to try to get right before I jump on the purely speculation bandwagon.

[Ahab]

Not at all. I guess I just have too many of the basics to try to get right before I jump on the purely speculation bandwagon.

Oh come on now. Speculating is fun!

Do you like to watch good movies? Good fictional movies? Thinking of things that would be good to see in movies?

Pondering is kinda like that. Imagine the best things you can imagine!!!

[JLHPROF]

I guess in the end I will always be the member who (at least for now) chooses to believe the ten tribes are on a speck of light near the North Star, that Christ had at least 3 wives in mortality, that exaltation DOES mean Godhood and spirit children, that our Heavenly Father was exactly like we are now (or at the very least like Christ was).

I choose to believe that Christ was born on April 6th, that eternal progression means for everyone, that polygamy is an eternal family structure, that spirit birth was literal, that the flood was global and represented the earth's baptism, and that the garments are examples of Heavenly clothing that do protect us.

In short, I choose to believe the uncanonized words of the prophets over professing missing revelation.

 

And finally I believe when prophets contradict and there is no actual revelation I get to choose which teaching I follow regardless of Church position.

 

I think these beliefs as taught by the prophets may not be certain, may only be opinion not revelation, but they were taught by men of God and so I find they will suffice until a better answer comes along.  It may not work for everyone, but it does for me.

[pogi]

I think these beliefs as taught by the prophets may not be certain, may only be opinion not revelation, but they were taught by men of God and so I find they will suffice until a better answer comes along.  It may not work for everyone, but it does for me.

 

Hey, if Brigham can make it with those beliefs, so can you!  I suspect you and Brigham will share a good laugh with each other as you reminisce on former beliefs...I am sure we all will. 

[Ahab]

Hey, if Brigham can make it with those beliefs, so can you! I suspect you and Brigham will share a good laugh with each other as you reminisce on former beliefs...I am sure we all will.

Et tu, pogi?

Let's not neglect to mention that they did know and see some things that although poorly understood by many are still true.

It's not all conjecture, and I know how to know what is true.

[ERayR]

Hey, if Brigham can make it with those beliefs, so can you!  I suspect you and Brigham will share a good laugh with each other as you reminisce on former beliefs...I am sure we all will. 

 

I certainly hope the macro-evolutionist will be able to laugh at their fairy tales.

[pogi]

Et tu, pogi?

Let's not neglect to mention that they did know and see some things that although poorly understood by many are still true.

It's not all conjecture, and I know how to know what is true.

 

If later prophets can make it without holding the same beliefs as some of the previous prophets, I am sure that I can make it too...conjecture or not.  I don't believe most of those things that JHLPROF mentioned, and I suspect that most Mormons don't, including the GA's.

[JLHPROF]

If later prophets can make it without holding the same beliefs as some of the previous prophets, I am sure that I can make it too...conjecture or not.  I don't believe most of those things that JHLPROF mentioned, and I suspect that most Mormons don't, including the GA's.

 

I think you mean the "current GA's".  Joseph, Brigham, John Taylor, Wilford etc were every bit as much a "GA" as anyone today.

And in the absence of definitive revelation, I get to choose which "GA" teachings I follow.  Recency doesn't make correctness.

[thesometimesaint]

I certainly hope the macro-evolutionist will be able to laugh at their fairy tales.

 

I'm open to the possibility are you?

[CV75]

I think you mean the "current GA's".  Joseph, Brigham, John Taylor, Wilford etc were every bit as much a "GA" as anyone today.

And in the absence of definitive revelation, I get to choose which "GA" teachings I follow.  Recency doesn't make correctness.

For the sake of self-mastery and unity with the body of the saints (on both sides of the veil, I may add, since nothing is hurt by “explanations”!), I think those explanations offered by our leaders, which have continued and remain today from earlier prophets, tends to draw the saints together more than those that are no longer given by living prophets. Some may call the process “filtering,” others “refinement,” and others “correction” or even “deviation” depending on their stance on a matter. I think “policy” follows a similar vein.

There is great wisdom in “living in the present” in unity with the saints while we apply our faith to that which is true (that Holy “knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come”). We can believe just about anything, but we are responsible to discern whether our testimony, whether in word and deed (and good-faith discussion), is good for the whole.

As we all can agree, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.” I think the covenants are one tier of appendage, policies and explanations (and exceptions!) are another. That doesn’t mean the appendages unnecessary, it just means they (each in their own way, place and time) bring us to the aims of that testimony and those fundamental principles.

[ERayR]

I'm open to the possibility are you?

 

I already am>  How about you?

[thesometimesaint]

I already am>  How about you?

 

Yep. But that does open a lot more questions for Heavenly Father to answer.

[ERayR]

Yep. But that does open a lot more questions for Heavenly Father to answer.

 

I am okay with that.  In fact I am already getting line upon line.  It is amazing the possibilities that open up when you don't shut the door.

Edited December 30, 2014 by ERayR

[mnn727]

I guess in the end I will always be the member who (at least for now) chooses to believe the ten tribes are on a speck of light near the North Star, that Christ had at least 3 wives in mortality, that exaltation DOES mean Godhood and spirit children, that our Heavenly Father was exactly like we are now (or at the very least like Christ was).

I choose to believe that Christ was born on April 6th, that eternal progression means for everyone, that polygamy is an eternal family structure, that spirit birth was literal, that the flood was global and represented the earth's baptism, and that the garments are examples of Heavenly clothing that do protect us.

In short, I choose to believe the uncanonized words of the prophets over professing missing revelation.

 

And finally I believe when prophets contradict and there is no actual revelation I get to choose which teaching I follow regardless of Church position.

 

I think these beliefs as taught by the prophets may not be certain, may only be opinion not revelation, but they were taught by men of God and so I find they will suffice until a better answer comes along.  It may not work for everyone, but it does for me.

And that's the reason many people think Mormons are weird/strange/foolish/etc, because SOME Mormons believe in non doctrinal things and then tell people that's what we believe. 

Edited December 30, 2014 by mnn727