Accepting Explanations Of Mysteries

[JLHPROF]

And that's the reason many people think Mormons are weird/strange/foolish/etc, because people believe in non doctrinal things and then tell people that's what we believe. 

 

Proud to be a peculiar person!  And when these investigators hear these things (like Joseph and polygamy) they get the joy of a faith crisis.

 

I think Mormons should OWN their unique beliefs, especially the canonized and historically unavoidable ones.  The more speculative ones they can ignore if they choose.

[ERayR]

And that's the reason many people think Mormons are weird/strange/foolish/etc, because people believe in non doctrinal things and then tell people that's what we believe. 

 

Would you rather we have a creed that limits and stifles?  I much prefer the LDS way.  Doctrine to cover the basics and freedom to explore the rest.

[mnn727]

Proud to be a peculiar person!  And when these investigators hear these things (like Joseph and polygamy) they get the joy of a faith crisis.

 

I think Mormons should OWN their unique beliefs, especially the canonized and historically unavoidable ones.  The more speculative ones they can ignore if they choose.

There is only one thing in your list that I would consider canonized (polygamy being an eternal concept) everything else - no.

Some of it is so far out there that you have to wonder what they were thinking when they said something like that.

Edited December 30, 2014 by mnn727

[ERayR]

.

Some of it is so far out there that you have to wonder what they were thinking when they said something like that.

 

Wonder does have the advantage of encouraging exploration which in turn sparks expansion of the mind.

[CV75]

And that's the reason many people think Mormons are weird/strange/foolish/etc, because SOME Mormons believe in non doctrinal things and then tell people that's what we believe.

From my experience, that "some" is a very small percentage of the whole that fellowshipped and taught me as a new member (and they weren't hard to see coming!). I took it as hearsay until I was interested enough to study it myself. We're (members and non-members) all in this together so those who manage their testimony responsibly will somehow get the Lord's work done, and those who have a challenge in doing so will not get in the way or let things get in the way for long.

[mnn727]

From my experience, that "some" is a very small percentage of the whole 

Unfortunately they are a very vocal minority

I wish all investigators and new members took responsibility like you (and I) did in researching for ourselves, however many don't and when they find out something strange one former leader said or did that throws them, they have a crises of faith.

Edited December 30, 2014 by mnn727

[ERayR]

Unfortunately they are a very vocal minority

I wish all investigators and new members took responsibility like you (and I) did in researching for ourselves, however many don't and when they find out something strange one former leader said or did that throws them, they have a crises of faith.

 

IMNSHO everybody has a crisis of faith to some degree or another.  It is how we handle it that counts.

[Ahab]

I think reserving judgment until a teaching moment becomes canon is the wrong approach. It isn't because something is canon that I choose to believe it. I seek the guidance of God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and when they assure me that something is true, and I am sure they are the ones assuring me, then I accept what they say as the truth. I don't even wait until (another) prophet of God tells me the same thing. When God tells me something, that to me is good enough.

[pogi]

I think reserving judgment until a teaching moment becomes canon is the wrong approach. It isn't because something is canon that I choose to believe it. I seek the guidance of God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and when they assure me that something is true, and I am sure they are the ones assuring me, then I accept what they say as the truth. I don't even wait until (another) prophet of God tells me the same thing. When God tells me something, that to me is good enough.

 

Absolutely, but one thing that I have come to learn about revelation and "knowledge", is that when one line is added upon a previous line, my understanding of the previous line changes slightly.  Knowledge is evolutionary through a process of ever improved perception.  God may indeed give you light, but do not suppose that your perception of that light is whole or entirely accurate.  The light you are given is always subject to pass through the dim lens of culture, beliefs, etc. resulting in an interpretation of truth from an individual perspective.  Until you know everything with clarity, you cannot know anything with certainty. 

Edited December 30, 2014 by pogi

[CV75]

Unfortunately they are a very vocal minority

I wish all investigators and new members took responsibility like you (and I) did in researching for ourselves, however many don't and when they find out something strange one former leader said or did that throws them, they have a crises of faith.

IMNSHO everybody has a crisis of faith to some degree or another.  It is how we handle it that counts.

Yes, some can be very vocal, but dealing with any boor is part of living in a community. Like when a guy corners me at a party to enlighten me with his spiritual insights--blessed are the peacemakers who passed him on to me (LOL!)... Or when a guy with otherwise odd behaviors and "vibes" does the same at Church, you can tell "something is off here"... whether in content or in spirit. The humble and/or well-adjusted don't push their agenda in these matters, and wolves in sheep's clothing are part of living in a community, too. I do feel sorry for people that suffer from spiritual impositions, but we all face them in some form or fashion (if not this), and proper fellowship can turn that experience around for many. In the long run, I believe in the teachings of what happens for those who are kept from the truth for reasons outside of their own control, and what happens to the foolish who think they are wise.

[Ahab]

Absolutely, but one thing that I have come to learn about revelation and "knowledge", is that when one line is added upon a previous line, my understanding of the previous line changes slightly. Knowledge is evolutionary through a process of ever improved perception. God may indeed give you light, but do not suppose that your perception of that light is whole or entirely accurate. The light you are given is always subject to pass through the dim lens of culture, beliefs, etc. resulting in an interpretation of truth from an individual perspective. Until you know everything with clarity, you cannot know anything with certainty.

You seemed to me to be doing so well until I read that last line, and I think your main problem is in trying to use words like everything and cannot. Try not to be so all-inclusive or entirely restrictive.

Pop quiz: Do you know with certainty that the Christ was named Jesus and that he has since communicated with you even while many people believed he was and still is officially dead?

[CV75]

Absolutely, but one thing that I have come to learn about revelation and "knowledge", is that when one line is added upon a previous line, my understanding of the previous line changes slightly.  Knowledge is evolutionary through a process of ever improved perception.  God may indeed give you light, but do not suppose that your perception of that light is whole or entirely accurate.  The light you are given is always subject to pass through the dim lens of culture, beliefs, etc. resulting in an interpretation of truth from an individual perspective.  Until you know everything with clarity, you cannot know anything with certainty.

I agree, and ultimately it is a soft heart that brings anyone to the light of truth (D&C 124:9). I hesitate to use that verse because some are emboldened by the previous verses as justification to inappropriately lean on people in their preaching. But the “kings and authorities… and rulers” are to be treated to the message by those who confess themselves to be weak and simple (D&C 1:23). I think it important to assess our explanation of things to others with an appraisal of what commission we have been given for our particular stewardship.

[pogi]

Pop quiz: Do you know with certainty that the Christ was named Jesus and that he has since communicated with you even while many people believed he was and still is officially dead?

 

That is my perception of my experience, yes.  I speak to my Father in Heaven in the name of Christ, and I inevitably receive communion in return.  However, I have never had an impression tell me, "my name is Jesus".  That is what my culture tells me, and I believe it full heartedly and do not doubt.  Consider, however, that Muslims pray to Ala and receive communion in return.  Because they are speaking to Ala, and receive communion in return, they conclude that it is Ala speaking.  I do the same thing.

 

I can even say that I know that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, just as I know that there is a roof over my head, but that is only my perception and I cannot know with certainty that it corresponds to some objective reality.  Until you can see and know every piece of truth and how it relates to the whole, you cannot know for certainty what you are looking at.  It will always be subject to interpretation based on culture etc, until all things are known and you can see how every variable relates with every other variable in wholeness. 

[Tacenda]

I wish I could believe that God is the father of Jesus Christ like my dad was a father to me.  I can't get my head around him being flesh and blood like me and creating the world or communicating with each of us, or I should say hearing each of our prayers.  I lean toward something akin to Him being an advanced being, so advanced our minds can't comprehend.  And wonder if Jesus Christ was a tool for God to provide an example, but dunno.  I know Christianity believes Jesus was God incarnate, and that might be a possibility.  Can't wait for the mysteries to open up, can't wait.     

[Ahab]

That is my perception of my experience, yes. I speak to my Father in Heaven in the name of Christ, and I inevitably receive communion in return. However, I have never had an impression tell me, "my name is Jesus". That is what my culture tells me, and I believe it full heartedly and do not doubt. Consider, however, that Muslims pray to Ala and receive communion in return. Because they are speaking to Ala, and receive communion in return, they conclude that it is Ala speaking. I do the same thing.

You might want to give that some more thought, asking our Father to help you know how you can know when he is speaking to you, otherwise how would you know if it was Satan trying to deceive you into thinking he was that God speaking to you. I can give you a few tips to help you know who is who but I can't make you realize who is who.

I can even say that I know that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, just as I know that there is a roof over my head, but that is only my perception and I cannot know with certainty that it corresponds to some objective reality. Until you can see and know every piece of truth and how it relates to the whole, you cannot know for certainty what you are looking at. It will always be subject to interpretation based on culture etc, until all things are known and you can see how every variable relates with every other variable in wholeness.

You really don't need to wait until you know everything before you can realize that you do know something, and on some level I think you already know that. You're just talking weird for some reason. Please stop it.

[Ahab]

I wish I could believe that God is the father of Jesus Christ like my dad was a father to me. I can't get my head around him being flesh and blood like me and creating the world or communicating with each of us, or I should say hearing each of our prayers. I lean toward something akin to Him being an advanced being, so advanced our minds can't comprehend. And wonder if Jesus Christ was a tool for God to provide an example, but dunno. I know Christianity believes Jesus was God incarnate, and that might be a possibility. Can't wait for the mysteries to open up, can't wait.

Some of the things you just said are not quite right, so go back and analyze each of your statements line by line. When our Father fathered Jesus he wasn't exactly like your Dad was when he fathered you, either time. And our Father has always been more advanced than your Dad, and he always will be.

[ERayR]

I can't get my head around him being flesh and blood like me and creating the world or communicating with each of us, or I should say hearing each of our prayers.

 

He has a really good computer system.   Sorry I couldn't resist.

[pogi]

You're just talking weird for some reason. Please stop it.

 

I am talking like I have always talked   - remember my pixel and puzzle analogy that you used to like?  I am simply repeating it again here with different words.  It doesn't just apply to people of other faiths, it applies to us too.

 

This is a perfect example of what I am talking about:

 

I gave some information - you liked it - new light is given to explain that information further (line upon line) - your perspective changes - what you thought you knew about me evolves (for better or worse) 

[ERayR]

Can't wait for the mysteries to open up, can't wait.     

 

You have to get a firm grasp of the basics and the mysteries will then begin to open up to you but first the foundation.

Edited December 30, 2014 by ERayR

[Ahab]

I am talking like I have always talked - remember my pixel and puzzle analogy that you used to like? I am simply repeating it again here with different words. It doesn't just apply to people of other faiths, it applies to us too.

This is a perfect example of what I am talking about:

I gave some information - you liked it - new light is given to explain that information further (line upon line) - your perspective changes - what you thought you knew about me evolves (for better or worse)

No I don't remember your puzzle and pixel analogy. And you say I liked it? WHO ARE YOU???

And I've seen people say things I agree with and then follow that up with something I don't agree with because I know it is wrong, before. Like you were doing well until you said we can't know anything with certainty until we know everything. I think your words were just weird and you didn't really mean that the way you wrote it.

[pogi]

No I don't remember your puzzle and pixel analogy. And you say I liked it? WHO ARE YOU???

 

I had to go hunt it down to make sure that I am not crazy     

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/59304-mysticism-and-mormon-spirituality/page-21

 

See posts 418 and 419.  You liked them 

 

I have repeated this same sentiment in my posts from that time with no complaint from you until now.  WHO ARE YOU???

 

Nice to meet you...I'm Pogi.  The more you get to know me, your perspective of me will change, and so it is with God.  Your previous knowledge will broaden, expand, and perhaps even change and surprise you. 

[ERayR]

 The more you get to know me, your perspective of me will change, and so it is with God.  Your previous knowledge will broaden, expand, and perhaps even change and surprise you. 

 

Be careful my friend that could turn out to be a two edge sword. 

 

[Ahab]

I had to go hunt it down to make sure that I am not crazy

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/59304-mysticism-and-mormon-spirituality/page-21

See posts 418 and 419. You liked them

I have repeated this same sentiment in my posts from that time with no complaint from you until now. WHO ARE YOU???

Nice to meet you...I'm Pogi. The more you get to know me, your perspective of me will change, and so it is with God. Your previous knowledge will broaden, expand, and perhaps even change and surprise you.

Oh that. Yes I liked and still like the analogy but now you're talking like those who have only a piece or some pieces of the puzzle can't know what they have until the see the entire big picture involving everything about everything' and my point is that we can know many or even all of the details involved in each piece even though we don't see some connection to the other pieces. You don't really mean that, do ya? If you do I can see how you would be wrong about that.

[pogi]

Be careful my friend that could turn out to be a two edge sword. 

 

Can you expound?

[ERayR]

Can you expound?

 

One might learn to love and appreciate you but it could also go the other way.  Some just do not appreciate greatness.