Accepting Explanations Of Mysteries

[mfbukowski]

Yes, I don't disagree with anything you said above this point.

 

 

 

I agree, we shouldn't worry, but we should also be curious and seek after understanding and further enlightenment line upon line.  I don't like the word "unknowable" as it does not fit in the construct of my personal beliefs.  Nothing is unknowable because all things are known by God, and we being endowed with the same attributes of God as his offspring, are capable of knowing.  It is a process of continual enlightenment (removing the filters one at a time and adding new light) until we can perceive of all light in all of its aspects without filter or distortion as we become a God. 

 

 

 

Because all things are knowable, it is not irrelevant.  The more we seek, ponder, pray, and discuss, the more clarity we receive, removing old beliefs and forming new beliefs until those beliefs become certain knowledge some day.  If we don't do the work, we don't get the reward.  If we call it irrelevant, there is no motivation to seek out what the scriptures promise is there.  

No problem with the concept here, just the vocabulary.  As always it comes down to language.

 

Instead of seeing it as "removing filters" I prefer thinking of it as constructing new ones which work more the way God's filter works.  Yes he has "filters"- to know something is to create it mentally.  Remember in the temple we learn that God created all spiritually/mentally BEFORE he created it physically.  He "made the plans" and "sketches" and "Called it the first day"= defined the term "Day" as applying to that first creative period.

 

That was defining his own "filter"- and we also define out own "filters".

 

The reality we organize parallels the world God organizes better and better, and becomes more like his.  That view makes us mini-gods helping him to organize worlds, right now.

 

That view explains the whole "omniscience" thing with God- the idea of "knowledge" of something "out there" melts into non-existence and it only becomes a question of knowing what He (and we) have constructed for ourselves.

 

God constructs all he is capable of constructing and therefore "knows" all there is for humans to know, which means all there "is" as far as we can know anyway.

 

So it is not possible for God to NOT "know" all that God has constructed, and we can only "know" what God has constructed.  We can only speak ideas he has already spoken. = "Know things he already knows"

 

I like the constructivist vocabulary better because it sweeps away all the confused speech of Neoplatonism, which implies that there is a world "out there" independent of our perception of it, to which our perception "corresponds"

 

That whole notion is self-contradictory ultimately because we by definition cannot know what is independent of our perception.  We cannot know what we cannot know.

 

That means we cannot know anything more than the filters God has made which are also our own filters.  It's not a question of removing filters- it is a question of constructing filters that work better and give us experiences which are better than others.

 

Seeing through the filter of quantum mechanics works better than seeing through the filter of Newtonian physics.  Seeing through the filter of Mormonism works better than seeing through the filter of Catholicism.

 

The key is knowing that we are always seeing through filters, and cannot eliminate them- we just construct better filters.  Big difference IMO.

 

It does away with the idea that it is possible to go without filters.  It is not.

[mfbukowski]

Pogi said

 

It is a process of continual enlightenment (removing the filters one at a time and adding new light) until we can perceive of all light in all of its aspects without filter or distortion as we become a God.

 

The problem with that is that it implies that God didn't create or organize anything- he just perceives what was already there, better than we do.

 

That's not the case.  He constructed/organized it all and we as mini-gods get to participate in the process of organizing it with Him.

Edited January 1, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Ultimately one realizes that even the idea of "filters" goes away and all of reality just becomes a construct of our experience- individually and collectively.

 

But those who do not understand that always bring up "the matrix" because they do not understand the steps leading to the conclusion.

 

I see the universe as a humanly created bubble that encircles all there is to know.  There can be nothing outside that bubble that I need to- or can- think about.

[Ahab]

Have you ever kept a prayer journal Ahab? If not you should try it. You will learn a lot about yourself and how we progress in the process of enlightenment. If you would give yourself to daily prayer and meditation, seeking after the will of God, then write down what you receive, you will see how that knowledge evolves over time. You will receive light from God which is like a puzzle piece or pixel. You then interpret what that puzzle piece means and write down that interpretation. God then gives you another piece of the puzzle or pixel which causes the last pice to appear bigger, smaller, more yellow, red, square, or round, etc. While the light has not changed, your understanding of it has in this new context and new perspective of new light (precept upon precept). It is like how the Book of Mormon modifies our understanding of the Bible from other Christians. New lines modify our understanding of previous lines (line upon line). I have three journals that I read through and can see the process of enlightenment in plain black and white. I have not yet hit the limits of my modified understanding of previous "knowledge" so I hesitate to say that I know anything with certainty. This is how the process happens with me, I suspect it is the same for all of us, but we don't take the time to write it down and analyze it.

I am well aware of the knowledge I have gained from God through prayer and pondering over the years, but at no time have I never been not certain about at least something. Even when I said my first word as a mortal baby, which according to my Mom was ball, followed soon by truck, I knew with certainty what each of those objects were.

Please stop saying things that are so weird.

[pogi]

I will have to think more on what you said in post 126.  I am open to further enlightenment, but am currently stuck with the filters of my upbringing and culture (Neoplatonism) which I am having a hard time removing. 

 

That whole notion is self-contradictory ultimately because we by definition cannot know what is independent of our perception.  We cannot know what we cannot know.

 

 

I simply accept that our current perceptions (and thus understanding) are subject to change with new light.  Who is to say that our perception will be "independent" of everything else at the point of Godhood?  When we become one with God, we too will be in all, through all things, etc.  We will fill the immensity of space and time in the same light that he does.  I just don't know how.  When I become one with God, I may see how it is not self-contradictory at all.  I think understanding the light of Christ might give some hints as to how when we become Gods, we are no longer independent (separate from all things), but become one with all things where our perceptions are not independent of a larger objective reality, but somehow meld with it.

 

 D&C 88:

 

6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

 7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

 8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

 9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

 10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

 11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

 12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

 13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

 

 67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

 

The problem with that is that it implies that God didn't create or organize anything- he just perceives what was already there, better than we do.

 

I don't think it implies that at all.  How so?

Edited January 1, 2015 by pogi

[pogi]

Please stop saying things that are so weird.

 

What can i say, I'm a wierdo, but I am at peace with that 

[Ahab]

Ultimately one realizes that even the idea of "filters" goes away and all of reality just becomes a construct of our experience- individually and collectively.

But those who do not understand that always bring up "the matrix" because they do not understand the steps leading to the conclusion.

I see the universe as a humanly created bubble that encircles all there is to know. There can be nothing outside that bubble that I need to- or can- think about.

I see it much the same way, with each of us in our own bubbles that sometimes merge with others in their bubbles. I may not ever be able to see things as you see them, or as someone else sees them, but I believe I can know all that can be known with certainty as I will be able to see and experience them in my own bubble. And I also believe God lives in a similar kind of bubble, because how else could he know something beyond what he knows?

[pogi]

Ultimately one realizes that even the idea of "filters" goes away and all of reality just becomes a construct of our experience- individually and collectively.

 

But those who do not understand that always bring up "the matrix" because they do not understand the steps leading to the conclusion.

 

I see the universe as a humanly created bubble that encircles all there is to know.  There can be nothing outside that bubble that I need to- or can- think about.

 

Do you know much about the "law of attraction"?  A lot of the concepts you talk about sound like that.  I have always been intrigued by it. 

[mfbukowski]

 

I will have to think more on what you said in post 126.  I am open to further enlightenment, but am currently stuck with the filters of my upbringing and culture (Neoplatonism) which I am having a hard time removing. 

 

 

 

I simply accept that our current perceptions (and thus understanding) are subject to change with new light.  Who is to say that our perception will be "independent" of everything else at the point of Godhood?  When we become one with God, we too will be in all, through all things, etc.  We will fill the immensity of space and time in the same light that he does.  I just don't know how.  When I become one with God, I may see how it is not self-contradictory at all.  I think understanding the light of Christ might give some hints as to how when we become Gods, we are no longer independent (separate from all things), but become one with all things where our perceptions are not independent of a larger objective reality, but somehow meld with it.

 

 D&C 88:

 

6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

 7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

 8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

 9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

 10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

 11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

 12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

 13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

 

 67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

 

 

I don't think it implies that at all.  How so?

 

Please understand that I have no problem with your way of seeing it- I am not saying that it is "wrong" and I am "right".

 

I just find my way of explaining it more conducive to the way I put it all together, and how it fits with us being gods in embryo, creating out own "worlds" right now.

I don't think your way of saying it can account for that.

 

And there is nothing with the scripture you quoted, of course.  There is nothing wrong with ANY scripture as far as I am concerned.

 

The glory of God is intelligence namely light and truth- to me that means that God organizes the universe through his intelligence which is also the Light of Christ.  His intelligence "fills space" because space IS his intelligence!  It is his intelligence- his knowing- that allows humans to know.  We can only know his creations because we share his nature and he knows the same way we know because we are - all of us- Human, though of course he is infinitely above us.

 

We can only know what he already knows because he has defined what humans can know, by his knowing it all.  He creates the "filter" by which we can know anything, because our minds fundamentally work the same way, even though our paltry minds are only embryonic compared to his.  Yet we are in some sense "genetically"- ontologically the same. 

 

We share his nature so we think in the same categories he thinks.  He has organized the categories.  We cannot even imagine that A does not equal A, because he has invented the rule that A=A.  It is the way his mind works, and therefore the way ours works.

 

So that is the way his intelligence "fills the universe" because his intelligence has created the categories by which the universe exists.   On a football field, the rules of football govern reality.  One could say that the rules of football CREATE football and there would be no football without the rules of football.  So with God, but on an infinitely larger scale.  It is as if we are "football robots"- pretend all we can know is football.  The rules of football are all we can know, so of course we cannot conceive of a space larger than 100 yards, and we cannot conceive of moving forward in more than 5 "downs".  It cannot be done.  It violates the laws of the universe of football.

 

In the beginning was the Word and the Word created all things that were created.  What does that mean?  It means that reality is created- organized by "The Word" meaning language!

 

ALL this is in section 93 to be found and dug out and put together.  It has to be one of my favorite chapters in all of scripture.

 

 

I don't think it implies that at all.  How so?

What you quoted was the scripture.  The scripture is not what I was objecting to. 

 

I was objecting to your interpretation of the scripture, which was this:

It is a process of continual enlightenment (removing the filters one at a time and adding new light) until we can perceive of all light in all of its aspects without filter or distortion as we become a God.

That scripture says nothing about removing filters until we perceive light in all its aspects.

This is the way I read that scripture.  Remember that light is God's Intelligence which fills space and makes the rules by which we can know things, because he has organized the universe the way He- and we- think- ie his intelligence

 

6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

 7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

 8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

 9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

 10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

 11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

The Word comprehends all things through his intelligence, or light and truth.

His intelligence organizes- makes the rules for- the sun and is the "power" by which it was made.  He organized the sun by the power of his intelligence, or light.

 

And the moon, and the stars, and the earth and even us, we who stand on the earth.   And the same kind of intelligence- or light- is the power by which we know things.  We comprehend the rules of the universe because God created the universe according to rules we comprehend because we experience in a way analogous- according to the same rules- that God himself comprehends all things- because we share in his nature.

 

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

 13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

 

 67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

 

God's intelligence- his laws, his ways of organizing reality- fills the immensity of all his intelligence has organized.  There is nothing we can know which was not organized according to the laws by which God organized, because such would not make sense to us.  He made the filters and our minds work by the filters he has created.  That which is not organized is chaos- nonsense- that which does not fit the filters by which we know all things, our experience.

 

And the more we become like God- the more we think the way he does- the more we accept his laws, his filters, his light, his intelligence our entire beings become filled with his way of thinking and knowing so that eventually there will be no other way of knowing anything.  We will not even be able to conceive of the world in ways which are alien to his ways of seeing it.

 

We will be filled with his intelligence and will know all things

 

I personally think that means no more Neoplatonic dualism but that is open to debate. 

 

Being filled with his rules for seeing things is not the same- and is incompatible with- the idea that there is something outside what he has organized.

 

That is NOT "removing the filters one at a time and adding new light) until we can perceive of all light in all of its aspects without filter or distortion", that is learning to see in a different way- that is making God first in our lives- with an eye "single to my glory"  (and what is his glory? His light and truth)

 

 

And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

 

So comprehending all things is not an act of stripping away filters- it is an active process of learning to think according to God's way of thinking.   It is an act of BECOMING like him, not an act of attempting to get to something independent of "filters" that God gave us- through our own experience, but learning to see by the rules which God has given us, so that we can see the way God sees, "things as they are" by ADDING intelligence, not subtracting it.

 

Einstein ADDS to Newton- it is not seeing things more INDEPENDENT of the human factor- it is adding MORE of the human factor- intelligence- which does a better job of organizing chaos.

 

Knowledge ADDS to organizing the universe- it is not stripping away to get to what is "real" independent of humans and God- it is learning to see the universe- ie organize the universe- the way God has organized it through his intelligence.

 

True knowledge is seeing God in all things- not stripping him out, as science presently does.

 

THAT is the real difference between theism and atheism- seeing God in all things with his intelligence filling the immensity of space- not "removing filters"

 

But all that is just words- my words and my way of seeing.  It works for me, but maybe not for you. 

[mfbukowski]

Do you know much about the "law of attraction"?  A lot of the concepts you talk about sound like that.  I have always been intrigued by it. 

Maybe in a sense.  Certainly when we look out at the universe what we see is Human Nature- including God's nature looking back at us.  So in that sense we "get back what we put out" into the universe.

 

On the other hand, if you are obsessed by money and that is all you think of, chances are you will make money.   That is not the law of attraction- it is strictly obsession. 

[mfbukowski]

 You will receive light from God which is like a puzzle piece or pixel. You then interpret what that puzzle piece means and write down that interpretation.  God then gives you another piece of the puzzle or pixel which causes the last pice to appear bigger, smaller, more yellow, red, square, or round, etc.  While the light has not changed, your understanding of it has in this new context and new perspective of new light (precept upon precept).  It is like how the Book of Mormon modifies our understanding of the Bible from other Christians.  New lines modify our understanding of previous lines (line upon line).  I have three journals that I read through and can see the process of enlightenment in plain black and white.  I have not yet hit the limits of my modified understanding of previous "knowledge" so I hesitate to say that I know anything with certainty. This is how the process happens with me, I suspect it is the same for all of us, but we don't take the time to write it down and analyze it. 

Yes exactly.  It is adding understanding not stripping away filters.  It is organizing worlds out of matter unorganized over time until you become like God and have organized all things

[mfbukowski]

I see it much the same way, with each of us in our own bubbles that sometimes merge with others in their bubbles. I may not ever be able to see things as you see them, or as someone else sees them, but I believe I can know all that can be known with certainty as I will be able to see and experience them in my own bubble. And I also believe God lives in a similar kind of bubble, because how else could he know something beyond what he knows?

Almost!  But he does not "know something beyond what he knows" any more than we do.  It doesn't make sense.

[mfbukowski]

Yes exactly.  It is adding understanding not stripping away filters.  It is organizing worlds out of matter unorganized over time until you become like God and have organized all things

Maybe I can back it up one more step.

We live in a chaos of atoms, quarks, and who knows what all else. Imagine we could see the molecules in the air around us. It would be total chaos. When this happens we call it "fog" or "smoke" and we say we "cannot see our hands in front of our face". In the dark- (total darkness) we cannot see at all.

So through our ability to perceive, our brains select impulses and organize them into "things"- chairs tables etc. What they "really are" science tell us are atoms and molecules and electrons quarks etc. But we do not see that, we see "things"

Our intelligence reaches out into our surroundings and organizes all that chaos into chairs and tables and mountains and cars, etc.

When we look out over a bit of scenery with binoculars, we are "extending our intelligence" into organizing that far away scene into mountains, perhaps a town, a church steeple, etc.

Our intelligence is organizing that chaos of light impulses into all those "things". That particular "scene" as we see it would not exist were it not for our intelligence organizing it.

It is the same in principle for God. His intelligence fills the universe and organizes chaos into intelligible "things".

This is stripping away filters. If we strip away filters, we have a chaos of atoms and photons, nothing more. No-thing, literally. No-thing we can name or use, or understand the importance of.

Even the face of a loved one would be a chaos of quarks

Edited January 2, 2015 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

Really interesting stuff bukowski!  That is a lot to think about, but maybe you could help me out with a few things.

 

I am confused about the creation from your perspective.  I am having a hard time understanding what matter is to God using your framework.  According to LDS theology matter is co-eternal with God.  It has always existed but was not always organized.  So what was it exactly, just unorganized thoughts?  The weird thing is that they were not just random thoughts, but they were very specific thoughts about matter because matter is eternal and was not created.   Why would God have these eternal unorganized thoughts about matter?  It just seems weird to me.

 

Also consider that the creation was done through Jesus Christ and Michael.  They received authority to create for the Father.  If the creation, according to you was a process of the father organizing his thoughts, how does Christ and Michael play into that?  Did they organize the Fathers thoughts for Him?

 

Consider also Abraham 4 regarding the creation.  How do you reconcile these scriptures into your model?  These passages suggest that the organization of the earth was not simply an organization of thought and word, but that matter was ordered (commanded) by the word of God.  Abraham 4:18 declares, "And the Gods watched those things which they had ordered until they obeyed."  This suggests that matter can indeed act independent of God's thought and wishes.  That it has agency.  In other words, it did not have to conform to his spiritual creation if it did not want to, but that it was attracted to his word, the light, and wanted to be a part of his spiritual creation.  They saw that it was good and chose the good. 

Edited January 3, 2015 by pogi

[pogi]

As far as filters goes, I think of the verse "for now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face" (1 Corinthians 13:12).  In this verse, he too uses the metaphor of a glass filter which will one day be removed as we face the Lord "face to face". 

 

The idea of filters for me is simply an analogy of our theoretical frameworks, false beliefs, deception of the adversary, and sin, which filters all light and causes us to interpret it through man made frameworks. The only way to truly see clearly is to remove the filter of sin through repentance.  It requires a change of heart and a change of mind (removing filters).  It requires replacing old ways of thinking by which we used to filter information with new ways of thinking that make the glass a little more clear.  Neoplatonism, pragmatism, atheism, monotheism. polytheism, trinitarianism...basically all of the "isms".   These are theoretical frameworks that we create which all light filters through until we remove it.  The only thing that keeps us from seeing the Lord face to face is sin.  That is what I mean by "filters".  Repenting and looking to the Lord with an eye single to his glory (as you suggest) is how we remove them.   It is simply an analogy for saying that we are out of sink with the Lord and light is distorted because of it. 

 

Imagine we could see the molecules in the air around us. It would be total chaos. 

 

Yet God does indeed perceive of all these things and it is not chaos to him.  He can perceive of my person as well as the bacteria in my gut, any single blood cell he can perceive of, he receives of the hemoglobin in that red blood cell, the elements which it is composed of, all the way down to the finest spiritual matter which exists.  He perceives it all and it is not chaos.  How?  Who knows, but that is how it must be, even according to your theory or none of it would exist. 

 

I too am not saying that you are wrong, just trying to understand. 

Edited January 2, 2015 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

As far as filters goes, I think of the verse "for now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face" (1 Corinthians 13:12).  In this verse, he too uses the metaphor of a glass filter which will one day be removed as we face the Lord "face to face". 

 

The idea of filters for me is simply an analogy of our theoretical frameworks, false beliefs, deception of the adversary, and sin, which filters all light and causes us to interpret it through man made frameworks. The only way to truly see clearly is to remove the filter of sin through repentance.  It requires a change of heart and a change of mind (removing filters).  It requires replacing old ways of thinking by which we used to filter information with new ways of thinking that make the glass a little more clear.  Neoplatonism, pragmatism, atheism, monotheism. polytheism, trinitarianism...basically all of the "isms".   These are theoretical frameworks that we create which all light filters through until we remove it.  The only thing that keeps us from seeing the Lord face to face is sin.  That is what I mean by "filters".  Repenting and looking to the Lord with an eye single to his glory (as you suggest) is how we remove them.   It is simply an analogy for saying that we are out of sink with the Lord and light is distorted because of it. 

 

 

Yet God does indeed perceive of all these things and it is not chaos to him.  He can perceive of my person as well as the bacteria in my gut, any single blood cell he can perceive of, he receives of the hemoglobin in that red blood cell, the elements which it is composed of, all the way down to the finest spiritual matter which exists.  He perceives it all and it is not chaos.  How?  Who knows, but that is how it must be, even according to your theory or none of it would exist. 

 

I too am not saying that you are wrong, just trying to understand.

That's ok.

A mirror is not a filter- it is a reflection of ourselves. 2000 years ago, mirrors were brass and did not reflect well. Now we see God as we see ourselves, but then we will see him "as he is" because our abilities will be expanded. The temple veil is a mirror. Look at the footnotes to that in the LDS scriptures. Notice lefts and rights. That's all I will say.

And can you carry on a conversation while you drive a car? How about listening to several million conversations while you are creating planets? Yes, God can do many more things than we can, but that doesn't show that the principle is wrong.

Good luck in your quest to lose manmade filters while still in this life. It's a little hard in a human body I would imagine.

Don't worry about it. We can duke it out sitting on a cloud someday.

Edited January 3, 2015 by mfbukowski