Lds Bishop Forgives Sins

[Ahab]

Some complexity is being missed here, so far. What about what our Lord said about all of us being required to forgive while the Lord would forgive whoever he forgived? I forgive everyone for their sins and weaknesses all the time, or at least I try to, and it has nothing to do with my position in the Church, whatever it is.

And I've always considered forgiving someone to be for my own benefit, regardless of the actions or the mindset of the person I am forgiving. He or she would still need to repent to be free of that sin or weakness, whether or not being forgiven.

Worth repeating. All of us should be forgiving everyone.

[mfbukowski]

it is worth noting that the text here says Jesus said this to disciples not apostles -- so that if by this scripture we justify that men have authority in Christ's name to forgive sins on earth, that authority is not confined to an human ruling elite, but to everyone that is His disciple and walks according to the Holy Spirit. 

 

Cool.

 

I'll just forgive myself then.  Do I have to wave my hands or anything?

[smac97]

Cool.

 

I'll just forgive myself then.  Do I have to wave my hands or anything?

 

I'm not sure Intra's analysis ("it is worth noting that the text here says Jesus said this to disciples not apostles") is correct.  The power to absolve/remit/"forgive" sins appears to be on par with the sealing power (see D&C 132:46).  So if a bishop lacks sealing authority (which he does), then he appears to lack authority to absolve/remit/"forgive" sins as well.

 

I think this is an interesting and important topic.  I hope others have observations/references which may be helpful in understanding it better.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[mfbukowski]

I'm not sure Intra's analysis ("it is worth noting that the text here says Jesus said this to disciples not apostles") is correct.  The power to absolve/remit/"forgive" sins appears to be on par with the sealing power (see D&C 132:46).  So if a bishop lacks sealing authority (which he does), then he appears to lack authority to absolve/remit/"forgive" sins as well.

 

I think this is an interesting and important topic.  I hope others have observations/references which may be helpful in understanding it better.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

Agree entirely.

 

And no, Bishops are not set apart with the authority to forgive sins.

[saemo]

I guess the Catholic and LDS have this in common.  And can see how it would give peace to many.

Catholic doctrine is, that a priest acts in persona Christi, and so when when we receive absolution for our sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (also called Confession), it is Jesus who absolves us of our sins. I don't see a similar belief being fleshed out among LDS in this thread. But it seems the same Protestant argument against confessing sins in a Catholic context is being made against LDS, but perhaps that is a straw man.

[Calm]

I think God is the only one who can absolve man's sin. If it is done through bishops, it is because God has accepted and supported their decision and provided his most important and necessary part.

However, we are still commanded to forgive others by God. It seems to me we need to do this at times on a communal level because sin in a member of the community will damage the community even if we are unaware of it. Most of the time though confessing to God and receiving his forgiveness is quite sufficient. However sometimes it can help the individual resist temptations and break old habits that contribute to his sins to make a public statement of contrition and doing so to the Bishop and going through the process of forgiveness with his help will be a blessing. Other times, for the sake of the community, there needs to be a public acknowledgement and seeking of forgiveness and the confession to the bishop can be used there and allows for this acknowledgement without a person's behaviour becoming an unnecessary topic of discussion (and too many others knowing can be an impediment to change).

Edited December 27, 2014 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

I think confession can definitely have it's upside. Getting it off your chest before it eats you alive.

Great things can come from confession, either to a Catholic priest or an LDS bishop, or whomever. I'm not sure too many people will rid their guilt on their own. People are generally much harder on themselves than a clergyman would be, IMO.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Tacenda

[Calm]

I know some people have problems with others giving instruction on penance in the case of Catholics or repentance steps in the case of bishops, but I think like the confessing itself as you say helps people let go of unnecessary guilt, having something they need to do helps convince the heart that they are truly forgiven.

Of course though who use such things as excuses not to have to change are missing the point IMO, but that is a different issue.

[ERayR]

Agree entirely.

 

And no, Bishops are not set apart with the authority to forgive sins.

 

Take a peek at this:

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichments/enrichment-i-judges-in-israel-watching-over-the-church?lang=eng

[Calm]

"God is the judge over all, and He rules and directs those He has chosen to sit “upon the judgment seat” (D&C 58:20)."

"When John the Baptist came to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and conferred upon them the Aaronic Priesthood, he told them that this priesthood held “the keys … of the gospel of repentance” (D&C 13:1). Since the bishop is the president of the Aaronic Priesthood in his ward (see D&C 107:13–15), he holds the keys to repentance for the people of the ward. Those who desire to repent of sins they have committed can obtain great help from their bishop, whom the Lord has chosen and designated to be His representative in such matters. Not only is it helpful to go to one’s bishop when seeking to repent, but it is necessary in the case of serious sins, for which a person cannot obtain forgiveness without confession to the appropriate priesthood leader."

But is this God giving forgiveness or the bishop?

"Bishops may remove penalties, but they may not remit sins. That is the Lord’s prerogative"

Seems like the Lord is the one who absolves.

Edited December 28, 2014 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

Take a peek at this:

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichments/enrichment-i-judges-in-israel-watching-over-the-church?lang=eng

Yes, that is what I was saying

 

“Although there are many ecclesiastical officers in the Church whose positions entitle and require them to be judges, the authority of those positions does not necessarily qualify them to forgive or remit sins. …

“The bishop, and others in comparable positions, can forgive in the sense of waiving the penalties. In our loose connotation we sometimes call this forgiveness, but it is not forgiveness in the sense of ‘wiping out’ or absolution. The waiver means, however, that the individual will not need to be tried again for the same error, and that he may become active and have fellowship with the people of the Church. In receiving the confession and waiving the penalties the bishop is representing the Lord. He helps to carry the burden, relieves the transgressor’s strain and tension, and assures to him a continuation of Church activity.

“It is the Lord, however, who forgives sin.” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 332.)

If you have ever been a bishop, the difference is very clear.

 

The good news is that should end the thread, as far as I am concerned.  It is the heaviest responsibility possible, I think, to tell someone that the Lord has forgiven them, and pray that you got that call right.

Edited December 28, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

But is this God giving forgiveness or the bishop?

Always God, never the bishop

[JLHPROF]

Always God, never the bishop

 

God forgives the sins.  The priesthood bearer of appropriate calling can pronounce the sins forgiven by God.  They don't forgive, they provide revelation that the sins are forgiven according to the promptings of the spirit.

 

When a Bishop interviews a candidate for baptism they don't forgive the sins but they are still accountable to determine by the spirit if repentance unto baptism has taken place.  By authorizing the baptism to occur they are essentially saying that the candidate has repented and their sins are forgiven.

The same thing occurs when a temple recommend is issued to one who was previously considered unworthy.

 

Many blessings and revelations in Church History have included the phrase "thy sins are forgiven thee", not by way of the giver forgiving, but by way of revealing the Lord's forgiveness.

[smac97]

Take a peek at this:

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichments/enrichment-i-judges-in-israel-watching-over-the-church?lang=eng

 

This excerpt from that link seems on point:

Bishops may remove penalties, but they may not remit sins. That is the Lord’s prerogative. Elder Kimball clarified this concept:

“Although there are many ecclesiastical officers in the Church whose positions entitle and require them to be judges, the authority of those positions does not necessarily qualify them to forgive or remit sins. …

Thanks,

-Smac

[mfbukowski]

I guess the Catholic and LDS have this in common.  And can see how it would give peace to many.

No, it is believed by Catholics that the priest has the power to absolve sin.

 

Absolution proper is that act of the priest whereby, in the Sacrament of Penance, he frees man from sin.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01061a.htm

[mfbukowski]

Catholic doctrine is, that a priest acts in persona Christi, and so when when we receive absolution for our sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (also called Confession), it is Jesus who absolves us of our sins. I don't see a similar belief being fleshed out among LDS in this thread. But it seems the same Protestant argument against confessing sins in a Catholic context is being made against LDS, but perhaps that is a straw man.

New Advent seems to disagree- see above

[MiserereNobis]

New Advent seems to disagree- see above

 

God always does the forgiving -- the priest is acting in his place.  The power was given to the apostles, passed to the bishops, and then to the priests.

 

From the Catechism:

 

1441 Only God forgives sins^. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.

 

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation." The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."

Edited December 29, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[Ahab]

Worth repeating. All of us should be forgiving everyone.

Worth repeating, yet again. And yes I forgive all of you for neglecting to "flesh out" my comments in this thread.

[gripper41]

Im going with brother Kimbles explanation on this.

I cannot see God handing the authority to seal or forgive sins on his behalf willy nilly to the thousands of Bishops and branch presidents covering the earth.

They are judges in Israel only and not judges in heaven.

[mfbukowski]

God always does the forgiving -- the priest is acting in his place.  The power was given to the apostles, passed to the bishops, and then to the priests.

 

From the Catechism:

Sounds reasonable to me.  When I was a bishop I never thought i could forgive sin, but in a temporal world, one needs temporal judges to decide temporal "penances" when appropriate to have someone decide them.

 

So what's the deal with New Advent then?  I always thought it was a little dated?  But for Catholics, heck, what could that even mean? 

 

And where does the "ego te absolvo" fit in that view?

Edited December 30, 2014 by mfbukowski

[3DOP]

Sounds reasonable to me.  When I was a bishop I never thought i could forgive sin, but in a temporal world, one needs temporal judges to decide temporal "penances" when appropriate to have someone decide them.

 

So what's the deal with New Advent then?  I always thought it was a little dated?  But for Catholics, heck, what could that even mean? 

 

And where does the "ego te absolvo" fit in that view?

 

Hi Mark!

 

Dated? There is no such thing with regards to defined Catholic teaching, and besides, the Catholic Encyclopedia is almost new, barely 100 years old! Heh. The "dated" website you reference says the following from the same Encyclopedia about mistakes that non-Catholics make based on partial knowledge of Catholic practice: "No Catholic believes that a priest, simply as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; but He can and does exercise it through the ministration of men. Since He has seen fit to exercise it by means of this Sacrament, it cannot be said that the Church or the priest interferes between the soul and God; on the contrary, penance is the removal of the one obstacle that keeps the soul away from God."

 

Hopefully that would answer where "ego te absolvo" comes in. The Catholic recognizes that he is confessing to Christ through His priest. It would be false to say that the priest does not forgive sins. It would also be false to say that the priest forgives sins except by the authority of Christ. It would be false to say that we confess our sins to a priest alone, apart from Christ. "Ego te absolvo" involves the awesome authority that has been delegated to the Church and from the Church to the priest by Jesus Christ, who we are confident is present when the priest speaks in His name.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

 

3DOP

Edited December 30, 2014 by 3DOP

[mfbukowski]

Hi Mark!

 

Dated? There is no such thing with regards to defined Catholic teaching, and besides, the Catholic Encyclopedia is almost new, barely 100 years old! Heh. The "dated" website you reference says the following from the same Encyclopedia about mistakes that non-Catholics make based on partial knowledge of Catholic practice: "No Catholic believes that a priest, simply as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; but He can and does exercise it through the ministration of men. Since He has seen fit to exercise it by means of this Sacrament, it cannot be said that the Church or the priest interferes between the soul and God; on the contrary, penance is the removal of the one obstacle that keeps the soul away from God."

 

Hopefully that would answer where "ego te absolvo" comes in. The Catholic recognizes that he is confessing to Christ through His priest. It would be false to say that the priest does not forgive sins. It would also be false to say that the priest forgives sins except by the authority of Christ. It would be false to say that we confess our sins to a priest alone, apart from Christ. "Ego te absolvo" involves the awesome authority that has been delegated to the Church and from the Church to the priest by Jesus Christ, who we are confident is present when the priest speaks in His name.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

 

3DOP

Well we don't deal so well with transubstantiation I guess. 

 

Yes, I know that is not an example of transubstantiation, but more an amplification of the idea of the "real presence".  Sort of.   I guess.

 

But that is definitely different for Mormons.

[3DOP]

Well we don't deal so well with transubstantiation I guess. 

 

Yes, I know that is not an example of transubstantiation, but more an amplification of the idea of the "real presence".  Sort of.   I guess.

 

But that is definitely different for Mormons.

 

Do you still think New Advent disagrees with what saemo said? "Catholic doctrine is, that a priest acts in persona Christi, and so when when we receive absolution for our sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (also called Confession), it is Jesus who absolves us of our sins".

 

Keep in mind that New Advent said: "No Catholic believes that a priest, simply as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; but He can and does exercise it through the ministration of men."

 

I see no difference between what saemo said and what New Advent says.

Edited January 1, 2015 by 3DOP

[mfbukowski]

Do you still think New Advent disagrees with what saemo said: "Catholic doctrine is, that a priest acts in persona Christi, and so when when we receive absolution for our sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (also called Confession), it is Jesus who absolves us of our sins".

 

Keep in mind that New Advent said: "No Catholic believes that a priest, simply as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; but He can and does exercise it through the ministration of men."

 

I see no difference between what saemo said and what New Advent says.

And Donald Trump "delegated the authority" to build Trump Tower to his contractors.

 

So who built Trump Tower?  As usual, it's words.

 

Did you really think I would say something else?

Edited January 1, 2015 by mfbukowski

[VideoGameJunkie]

My Bishop gave me a blessing and in that blessing said my sins were forgiven, but that was Heavenly Father speaking though.