Animal Sacrifice Restored

[Vance]

respectfully, i think if you take "neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem" and put it together with "His true worshipers will worship Him in spirit and in truth" 

and you come up with "only in official LDS temples"

That is not what I come up with.  It is you that are trying to shoe horn ""only in official LDS temples" " into our beliefs.

 

 

 

i am not the one injecting something that is not there.

 

You did it there and you did it again here.

 

You need to stop putting your anti-mormon crap memes forward as accurate representations of our beliefs.

 

It is rather obvious that you don't know what we really believe, nor do you care to be accurate.

 

But hey, if it makes you feel better about your own beliefs by fabricating strawman representations of ours so you can then flog said strawmen into pulp, then have at it.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Vance

[intra]

TOTALLY missing the point.Troll on.

 

Baptism, for one.

"totally" missing Christ. if by "troll" you mean to say "one who puts Christ above all things on earth" then i'm honored to be named this way!  

Then I remembered what the Lord had said:

'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

(Acts 11:16) 

whose hand washes with the Spirit? 

[pogi]

"totally" missing Christ. if by "troll" you mean to say "one who puts Christ above all things on earth" then i'm honored to be named this way!  

Then I remembered what the Lord had said:

'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

(Acts 11:16) 

whose hand washes with the Spirit? 

 

Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:17

 

​One needs be born again of water and spirit.

Edited December 21, 2014 by pogi

[intra]

Sorry but!!!!

 

Neither this

nor this

preclude other mountains or other temples.

 

You are injecting something that is not there.

you are right to say i do not have complete knowledge of LDS doctrine, and i hope you are generous to relate them to me. 

i see now what you meant with the post quoted -- and it is very good that you don't falsely say worship is only in this physical place or that!! 

but you said the scripture doesn't "preclude other mountains or temples" -- to insinuate that i have said that it does. 

it does not; and i would not say this. so here is what is "inserted that is not there" 

but what is there, is that God does not dwell in an habitation made by human hands, but makes His home in those who love His Son, and abide in Him. the worship of such a one is not confined in any way by physical location, nor is it subject to the ordination of a carnal law, but is truly in spirit. 

isn't it good how that in Christ we may agree  

[Vance]

"totally" missing Christ. if by "troll" you mean to say "one who puts Christ above all things on earth" then i'm honored to be named this way!  

By troll I don't mean to say "one who puts Christ above all things on earth", but rather I mean you.

Then I remembered what the Lord had said:

'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

(Acts 11:16)

 

Interesting but irrelevant.  Like most of your  deleted by mod.

 

whose hand washes with the Spirit?

Obviously NOT yours.

[intra]

Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:17

 

​One needs be born again of water and spirit.

you're misquoting. read what i posted again -- Acts 11. 

referring to the conversion of the gentile Cornelius, and all in his household. 

as Peter was speaking, the Holy Spirit came over all of them -- and Peter was astonished, and said "who can forbid water??" 

here God approved these that men called "unclean" 

[mfbukowski]

I wasn't speaking about the fall rather I was speaking about animal sacrifice.

 

You said "

Jewish priesthood is officially recognized by LDS theology"

 

Do you believe that people who are not LDS, do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and have not even been baptized have the authority to restore an ordinance of God?

 

Actually I never said that,  You certainly like to repeat things though dont you?

[pogi]

you're misquoting. read what i posted again -- Acts 11. 

referring to the conversion of the gentile Cornelius, and all in his household. 

as Peter was speaking, the Holy Spirit came over all of them -- and Peter was astonished, and said "who can forbid water??" 

here God approved these that men called "unclean" 

 

I'm not misquoting, that's what Acts 8:17 says.  I copied and pasted it. 

"who can forbid water?"  Good question!  

[intra]

By troll I don't mean to say "one who puts Christ above all things on earth", but rather I mean you.

 

Interesting but irrelevant.  Like most of your excrement.

 

Obviously NOT yours.

they are known by their fruit my friend. 

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

(1 John 4:7- 

If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

(1 John 4:20-21) 

do we need that a man should reprove us? 

does scripture itself not suffice? 

while we were yet trolls, He died for us. 

 

[Calm]

 if by "troll" you mean to say "one who puts Christ above all things on earth" then i'm honored to be named this way!  

No, by "troll" he means something more like this:

 

[intra]

I'm not misquoting, that's what Acts 8:17 says.  I copied and pasted it. 

"who can forbid water?"  Good question!  

let's not argue vainly over words. (would you like a scriptural reference to that effect?) 

Acts 8 doesn't remove Acts 9 or 10 or 11, and no where is it written Christ baptized with water, in fact in more than one place it is specifically said that He does not. 

this is derailing the central point -- can Christ not baptize? indeed He can. is His baptism of no effect?

the grace of my Lord is sufficient for me.  

[Vance]

they are known by their fruit my friend. 

Yes, they are.

 

Is misrepresenting the beliefs of others considered one of those fruits?

 

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

(1 John 4:7-  

If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

(1 John 4:20-21)

You can quote scriptures that I believe.

 

Good for you.

 

    do we need that a man should reprove us?

Yes.

 

does scripture itself not suffice?

No.

while we were yet trolls, He died for us.

 

While we were yet unborn, He died for us.

 

Does that mean that we were saved before we were born?

[pogi]

From another thread you paraphrase:

but mankind walking not after the Spirit is vain and contentious. we will find reason to argue over anything, especially what things are not made clear. 

 

 

Then you say:

 

 

 

"totally" missing Christ. if by "troll" you mean to say "one who puts Christ above all things on earth" then i'm honored to be named this way!  

 

 

You accuse someone of "missing Christ" then so vainly claim to put Christ above all things while tearing down his brother?  Even if you say if half jokingly, the lack of spirit in your delivery, the vanity in your tone and your contentious spirit is so palpable I am almost choking on it. 

[Vance]

let's not argue vainly over words. (would you like a scriptural reference to that effect?) 

Acts 8 doesn't remove Acts 9 or 10 or 11, and no where is it written Christ baptized with water, in fact in more than one place it is specifically said that He does not. 

this is derailing the central point -- can Christ not baptize? indeed He can. is His baptism of no effect?

the grace of my Lord is sufficient for me.  

Jesus specifically taught baptism by water.

 

John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[ERayR]

From another thread you paraphrase:

 

 

Then you say:

 

 

 

You accuse someone of "missing Christ" then so vainly claim to put Christ above all things while tearing down his brother?  Even if you say if half jokingly, the lack of spirit in your delivery, the vanity in your tone and your contentious spirit is so palpable I am almost choking on it. 

 

With this one you are trying to nail Jello to the wall.

[mfbukowski]

let's not argue vainly over words. (would you like a scriptural reference to that effect?) 

 

Great idea.

 

Let's all just stop talking altogether.  Then no one will argue about words!  It's about all we have to argue about anyway.

[carbon dioxide]

Yes. That works Mark, for LDS. Forgive me, I forget that option in your paradigm. But in my opinion, it doesn't seem to work for Cardinal Kasper...who hasn't spoken in favor of repentance after this mortal life.

I like the statement from Jesus in Matthew 12:32: "...whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." 

 

It would appear that Jesus thought it was possible to receive forgiveness for sins in the world to come.  But unlike other sins that can be forgiven in this world, or the world to come, speaking against the Holy Ghost is not included. 

[Robert F. Smith]

being dragged before the Sanhedrin and 'holding His peace' rather than answer their interrogations is hardly what i would call "recognizing the authority of the high priest"

Hi intra!

Is that your interpretation of Matthew 26:

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

Somehow, it appears that the High Priest obtained compliance when he ordered Jesus in the name of God to answer, or maybe we aren't reading the same Bible.

 

.........................................before He gave Himself over to become our atonement, He said "

the hour comes and now is" when acceptable worship should be changed, and He said the Father's true worshipers will worship neither on one mountain or another, but in spirit and truth. 

what does this mean? is it an exchange of one physical temple for another? i think not! 

You ignore the fact that Jesus and his followers went regularly to the Temple in Jerusalem, and He said so.  Early Christianity was not anti-temple at all.  Indeed, the liturgy and ordinances adopted by early Christianity were virtually those same Jewish temple ordinances, now adapted to Christian meeting houses and future cathedrals, where they continued to worship in spirit and in truth.  Even today, the Roman Catholic mass is a sacrificial rite conducted on an altar by priests.  That rite was instituted by Jesus Himself at His last Passover.

 

The Reformation was necessary in order to eliminate corruption (and engendered a worthwhile Counter-Reformation), but it threw out the baby with the bathwater.  Much of Protestantism today is theologically incoherent and diminishing in size and importance.

[Calm]

No, by "troll" he means something more like this:

 

 

Came across one I adored.  Please 3DOP and other nonLDS, tell me if this is offensive posting it because I am judging by how I would react if someone posted an LDS version of it…in fact I think I will go try and see if I can find a missionary one like I have seen in the past:

 

 

Add-on:  well, I couldn't find one, I wonder if I saw it offline, someone took a groom's outfit, lost the cumberbund and gave him a missionary name tag….I love the faces on these things for some reason.  My daughter's best friend as a little kid looked so much like one of these with normal hair, I had to control my smiles at times.  He just cheered me up whenever I saw him (he was a very nice kid, loved to babysit him, grew up sweet as well).

Edited December 21, 2014 by calmoriah

[Robert F. Smith]

Jesus received worship at His feet while He walked with us, and this not at the temple in Jerusalem. 

........................................................

Not so, intra.  What did Jesus Himself declare when taken by the crowd at Gethsemane?

 

Matt 26:55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple.

 

And elsewhere:

 

John 18:20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

 

Cf. Mark 12:35, 14:49, Luke 2:46, 19:47, 21:37, 22:53, John 8:2, etc.

[Avatar4321]

A Levitical one, in the literal sense of that word?  How did you manage that?

what do you think a priest in the aaronic priesthood is?

[Avatar4321]

After writing the account given of the Savior’s ministry to the remnant of the seed of Jacob, upon this continent, it was easy to be seen, as the prophet said it would be, that darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. On reflecting further it was as easy to be seen that amid the great strife and noise concerning religion, none had authority from God to administer the ordinances of the Gospel. For the question might be asked, have men authority to administer in the name of Christ, who deny revelations, when His testimony is no less than the spirit of prophecy, and His religion based, built, and sustained by immediate revelations, in all ages of the world when He has had a people on earth? If these facts were buried, and carefully concealed by men whose craft would have been in danger if once permitted to shine in the faces of men, they were no longer to us; and we only waited for the commandment to be given ‘Arise and be baptized.’ - Oliver cowdery

I quote this because there are some who seem to be saying that the living Levites currently have authority from God. How can they? If they did said authority would not have needed to be restored. If the aaronic priesthood is currently held among the Levites Joseph and Oliver would have been required to go to them for baptism because they would have lawful authority.

if they have lawful authority then there is no need for said authority to be restored through angelic ministry as it has been.

the sacrifice of animals is an ordinance of the Lord. And we see clearly from Oliver here that no one had authority to administer to any ordinances before it was restored by John the Baptist. The man Joseph clearly taught was the last person to hold said authority.

we have the keys to the aaronic and levitical priesthood. And when the sons of Levi are purified through baptism and the laying on of hands, they will be entitled to the priesthood of their fathers.

I think we are still in the beginning of the restoration. But all things will be restored through us as we are faithful

[Avatar4321]

they are known by their fruit my friend. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.(1 John 4:7- If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.(1 John 4:20-21) 

do we need that a man should reprove us? 

does scripture itself not suffice? 

while we were yet trolls, He died for us. 

the Pharisees used similar arguments to justify rejecting Christ when He plainly taught among them. Christ rebuked them saying "ye search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life." if the Savior of the world can be rejected with an appeal to the scriptures by the wicked, how much easier is it to attack imperfect servants of the Lord?

if you didn't think we needed men to reprove us, you wouldn't be here reproving us. The scriptures teach us that the Lord gave us apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers etc to guide us to a unity in faith and to reprove us. In fact The scriptures say that apostles and prophets are the foundation of the Church. Should we just ignore the Lords authorized servants because we proclaim loyalty to authorized servants of the past?

[Robert F. Smith]

........................................................, none had authority from God to administer the ordinances of the Gospel. ...................................... authority to administer in the name of Christ, ............................................... ‘Arise and be baptized.’ - Oliver cowdery

I quote this because there are some who seem to be saying that the living Levites currently have authority from God. How can they? If they did said authority would not have needed to be restored. If the aaronic priesthood is currently held among the Levites Joseph and Oliver would have been required to go to them for baptism because they would have lawful authority.

The priest (kohen) John the Baptizer carried out the baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because no priest from among the Jews could do that -- even though they have authority to administer their priesthood among the Jews.  At least John believed in Jesus Christ.

 

if they have lawful authority then there is no need for said authority to be restored through angelic ministry as it has been.

the sacrifice of animals is an ordinance of the Lord. And we see clearly from Oliver here that no one had authority to administer to any ordinances before it was restored by John the Baptist. The man Joseph clearly taught was the last person to hold said authority.

we have the keys to the aaronic and levitical priesthood. And when the sons of Levi are purified through baptism and the laying on of hands, they will be entitled to the priesthood of their fathers.

I think we are still in the beginning of the restoration. But all things will be restored through us as we are faithful

You are inventing doctrine as you go, even though it is completely irrational to ask that Aaronic priests serving the Jews must baptize Gentiles in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  How would that work?  Any ideas?  You could ask a rabbi at http://www.chabad.org/asktherabbi/default_cdo/jewish/Ask-the-Rabbi.htm .  LOL    

 

You also invalidate D&C 68 & 107 dealing with just such lineal authority of sons of Aaron.

 

The only conversion baptism (mikveh) among modern Jews is not done by a priest, and there is no declaration in the name of God.  Witnesses simply make sure that all parts of the nude body of the convert are immersed.  Then a board of three rabbis gives its written approval.  If the convert is male, then circumcision is also done.

[intra]

if you didn't think we needed men to reprove us, you wouldn't be here reproving us. 

it is good that the Lord made sarcasm, and that hard things are softened with laughter!   

you can have your mortal intercession. i will put my trust in Christ alone and live to see all things under His feet, singing with joy in my heart all the while!

"is any merry? let him sing psalms" 

 

Psalm 2

1 Why do the heathen rage,

and the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves,

and the rulers take counsel together,

against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder,

and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh:

the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath,

and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me,

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,

and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;

thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings:

be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry,

and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.

Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

♪  ♫