Animal Sacrifice Restored

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You said "Jewish priesthood is officially recognized by LDS theology"

 

So you believe that people who are not LDS, do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and have not even been baptized have the authority to restore an ordinance of God?

Yup that is it. What of it?

Edited December 19, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Robert F. Smith]

You said "Jewish priesthood is officially recognized by LDS theology"

 

So you believe that people who are not LDS, do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and have not even been baptized have the authority to restore an ordinance of God?

The lineal descent of priests among the Jews (specifically the kohens) is recognized officially in LDS theology in the Doctrine and Covenants.  This is so to the extant that such a priest from the tribe of Levi can become a Mormon and claim his right to be a ward bishop (subject to approval and ordination by the First Presidency) without counselors, i.e., to hold the presidency of the Aaronic Priesthood in that ward.  Since the language is so clear, it is also certain that such priests and Levites also have lineal authority to act in an official capacity (as they do now) in Jewish congregations, and at any future Jewish temple.  Within Judaism, rabbis are ordained, but Jewish priests are not.  Thus, it is only Jewish priests functioning in a future Jewish temple who will perform animal sacrifice (and other types of sacrifices).  That has nothing to do with LDS temple practice.

[Canadaigua]

The lineal descent of priests among the Jews (specifically the kohens) is recognized officially in LDS theology in the Doctrine and Covenants.  This is so to the extant that such a priest from the tribe of Levi can become a Mormon and claim his right to be a ward bishop (subject to approval and ordination by the First Presidency) without counselors, i.e., to hold the presidency of the Aaronic Priesthood in that ward.  Since the language is so clear, it is also certain that such priests and Levites also have lineal authority to act in an official capacity (as they do now) in Jewish congregations, and at any future Jewish temple.  Within Judaism, rabbis are ordained, but Jewish priests are not.  Thus, it is only Jewish priests functioning in a future Jewish temple who will perform animal sacrifice (and other types of sacrifices).  That has nothing to do with LDS temple practice.

So you believe that Jews who deny Christ, have never been baptized nor received the gift of the Holy Ghost have authority that is recognized by the LDS church and can restore official ordinances?

[pogi]

So you believe that people who are not LDS, do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and have not even been baptized have the authority to restore an ordinance of God?

 

So you believe that Jews who deny Christ, have never been baptized nor received the gift of the Holy Ghost have authority that is recognized by the LDS church and can restore official ordinances?

 

This is starting to remind me of my dementia patients -

 

"Are you married?" 

"yes"

"Are you married?"

"yes"

"Are you married?"

"Yes"

[Calm]

It is a Levitical ordinance.  Why wouldn't Levitical priests have the official standing to perform it?

 

As far as whether or not at the time the Levitical priests accept Christ as their God or not, it seems to me the way the scripture is phrased it may very well be that they do.  Or it may be meant as a ritual opening to prepare them to receive their Messiah at this time even if in the past they had in ignorance rejected him.  Perhaps in many ways the Jews have broken their covenant with God but in others they have been very steadfast (at least a good segment of them), and past errors shouldn't prevent them from renewing their commitment to their covenants in the best way they know how and having that be acceptable to God, who is infinitely merciful and imo looking for opportunities to teach those who seek him out no matter how they do so.

 

It is not an ordinance that LDS have been called to perform…at least not yet (and probably won't imo).

 

Canadaigua, do you believe that the sacrifices performed in the temple at the time of Christ (and after his death for the short time they continued) were invalid because those performing them did not believe Christ was the Messiah or lacked baptism or anything else?

Edited December 19, 2014 by calmoriah

[pogi]

Canadaigua, do you believe that the sacrifices performed in the temple at the time of Christ (and after his death for the short time they continued) were invalid because those performing them did not believe Christ was the Messiah or lacked baptism or anything else?

Good question!

[3DOP]

So you believe that Jews who deny Christ, have never been baptized nor received the gift of the Holy Ghost have authority that is recognized by the LDS church and can restore official ordinances?

 

Canadaigua,

 

It appears I defended my Mormon friends from something I thought rather absurd, which on the contrary, they accept. I have been here since 2004 and other LDS sites before this one. This one is new on me. I didn't know.

 

I am sorry to say that there are a few Catholic bishops, of whom one is probably the pope, who favor this idea that Jews can reject Christ and be saved under the Mosaic Law. For anyone who believes this, I wonder how it would work for the offspring of two Gentiles who converted to Judaism a thousand years ago. My question now is about whether the covenant spoken of is ethnic in nature, or about religious affiliation. Could any of us who should convert to Judaism qualify for this privilege, even if we hadn't a drop of Jewish blood in our veins?

[3DOP]

Cal...good question...Before Christ, and during His life...valid...if that is the correct word. Pleasing to God certainly, with the right spirit (not like those Malachi complained about). After Christ's death when the veil of the temple was rent in two? Not so much.

[Calm]

 Jews can reject Christ and be saved under the Mosaic Law

 

Jews, like everyone else, must eventually accept Christ as their Redeemer and participate in all ordinances commanded by God.  Even if LDS accept that the Levitical Priesthood still exists and that a Levitical ordinance may still be valid does not mean that such an ordinance substitutes for other ordinances or that the Law of Moses is any more sufficient to salvation or exaltation now then it was before Christ came.

Edited December 20, 2014 by calmoriah

[Flyonthewall]

Canadaigua,

 

It appears I defended my Mormon friends from something I thought rather absurd, which on the contrary, they accept. I have been here since 2004 and other LDS sites before this one. This one is new on me. I didn't know.

 

I am sorry to say that there are a few Catholic bishops, of whom one is probably the pope, who favor this idea that Jews can reject Christ and be saved under the Mosaic Law. For anyone who believes this, I wonder how it would work for the offspring of two Gentiles who converted to Judaism a thousand years ago. My question now is about whether the covenant spoken of is ethnic in nature, or about religious affiliation. Could any of us who should convert to Judaism qualify for this privilege, even if we hadn't a drop of Jewish blood in our veins?

I am sure you are aware that the Mosaic law did not have the power of salvation - that is in the higher law in Jesus Christ. That does not mean that all the Jews that practiced the Mosaic law could not be saved. We believe that they will be given the opportunity and be able to accept the higher law.

Animal sacrifice did not originate with the Mosaic law, it began with Adam.

So far as I can find, there has only been one modern day prophet to address this specifically -

Joseph Fielding Smith stated that animal sacrifice would happen again to fulfill a symbolic role as part of the restoration of all things in this dispensation:

Now in the nature of things, the law of sacrifice will have to be restored, or all things which were decreed by the Lord would not be restored. It will be necessary, therefore, for the sons of Levi, who offered the blood sacrifices anciently in Israel, to offer such a sacrifice again to round out and complete this ordinance in this dispensation. Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored.

The sacrifice of animals will be done to complete the restoration when the temple spoken of is built; at the beginning of the millennium, or in the restoration, blood sacrifices will be performed long enough to complete the fulness of the restoration in this dispensation. Afterwards sacrifice will be of some other character. (Doctrines of Salvation 3:94)

As far as I know, nobody is chomping at the bit to bring it back. I don't even recall it ever coming up as a topic of discussion, except for here on this board. I would even hazard a guess that most LDS would not be aware of this as being something to be restored.

To show how central it is to us, those critical of LDS faith bring it up more than LDS do.

[ERayR]

So you believe that Jews who deny Christ, have never been baptized nor received the gift of the Holy Ghost have authority that is recognized by the LDS church and can restore official ordinances?

 

Yes to the extent of that authority if you leave out the part about denying Christ and having never been baptized and the part about not receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.  Other than that you are pretty accurate.  That authority is, however, the authority of the Aaronic priesthood and is under the direction of the Melchizedek priesthod. .

[mfbukowski]

Never backed away from it to my knowledge:  It's reiterated in Doctrine & Covenants 13: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/13?lang=eng

Interestingly, there is another interpretation to that passage, just looking at it as a statement in itself.

1 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

What THAT statement implies is that the sons of Levi will make the offering, and after that, at an unspecified time, the Aaronic Priesthood will be removed from the earth.

 

We assume that the "sons of Levi" will be holders of the Aaronic Priesthood but that is not what it says.  Suppose some now Jewish Cohens make the offering- they would be "sons of Levi" making the sacrifice.  So would it "count" if a Jewish group of Cohens offered the sacrifice?  Isn't that in fact in the works?

 

I do not pretend to be a scriptorian on this issue- I just am offering an alternate interpretation of that one scripture.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban#Future_of_sacrifices_in_Judaism

[mfbukowski]

One could also reason practices like circumcision are now restored/taught through the Endowment and other covenants received.

In fact one makes covenants regarding sacrifice there.

[mfbukowski]

They haven't backed away from anything on this matter.  This is clearly a Jewish issue, not a Mormon one, and Jews are central to the Restoration.  I take it that you understand that Jewish priesthood is officially recognized by LDS theology, and that Joseph Smith had Apostle Orson Hyde dedicate Palestine to the final gathering of the Jews in 1841 (Hyde's dedicatory prayer on Mount Olivet is available in English & Hebrew on a monument there).  Most Mormons are wholly ignorant of the fact that the Jews are still the covenant people of God.  See Article of Faith #10.

There you go- thanks Bob!

[mfbukowski]

Perhaps it would be to the point to look at Malachi 1, the last book of the Protestant and LDS Old Testaments. In the first part of the chapter, the prophet speaks to the priests who offer "'polluted bread' upon my altar". It seems that this is in reference to the offering of animals in sacrifice that are blind, lame, and sick. The prophet chides them by asking if they would offer such a gift to their political leader, the prince. Obviously not. Then God, speaking by the mouth of the prophet proclaims a future time when there will be a great and purest, most perfect sacrifice, that will be offered the world round, and not by the Levitical priests, because it will be an offering made by the nations:

 

"For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts." (Mal. 1:11)

 

I do not insist here that this passage must refer to the Eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass, which is how it is interpreted by my fellow Catholics and me. I could be gratified if anyone might see how this view fits very well into what Malachi was saying. But the main point all could take would be that nearly four hundreds of years before the birth of God's Son, there was a prophet pointing to a different and superior kind of sacrifice, then offering up the best of our herds and the fruits of the field. I would suggest that if we fast with good cheer, or we give alms to the poor willingly, in fulness of faith, for the sake of God and His Christ, hoped to be our reasonable service, it is a spiritual sacrifice acceptable to God.

 

According to how I understand it, there is an ordained priesthood, in which both Catholics and Mormons believe, according to the order of Melchisedec, but every true believer is a priest according to St. Peter, and obliged to make spiritual sacrifices, carrying our own crosses. Figuratively speaking, when we bite our tongues for the sake of God and His Christ at someone who irritates us, when we fulfill sometimes onerous duties of our state in life without complaint, believing it is the will of God, we are carrying OUR crosses, and are uniting ourselves with that Holy Cross which redeems the world. 

 

I hold that in addition to the holiest priestly Sacrifice of the Mass, these sacrifices of the Gentiles spoken of, offered unceasingly, "from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof", "great among the Gentiles", "in every place" refers to those sacrifices which are offered up by the priesthood of believers when like their Lord before them, they offer up everything to God, not excluding our very bodies, WHICH IS OUR REASONABLE SERVICE (Rom 12:2). It is unreasonable to offer the Lord of Hosts and King of kings, our Creator and Father anything less than everything we are and have. After all, he gave us every talent and gift and good thing. He will return us a bountiful reward, and more abundantly than we can imagine if we offer our sacrifices faithfully, willingly, with joy and good cheer, like Jesus, who endured the Cross, "for the joy that was set before Him" (12:2 again! Hebrews).

 

God help us who understand and reverence the Cross of Jesus, the only saving and ultimate sacrifice, to be more and more faithful as priests, by the grace of the Holy Ghost, and through the Lord Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father.

 

Rory

Thanks for that Rory.

In fact it can just as well refer to the offering of a "broken heart (broken in obedience, like a 'broken horse') and contrite spirit" in sacrifice through temple covenants, but I had never seen that scripture as an LDS temple scripture before. And now of course it is true that temples can be found around the world.

But indeed I have no problem accepting both interpretations.

Edited December 20, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

You said "Jewish priesthood is officially recognized by LDS theology"

 

So you believe that people who are not LDS, do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and have not even been baptized have the authority to restore an ordinance of God?

Was partaking of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil an "ordinance"?

The fall enabled us to be able to reach exaltation- without it, we would be stuck in the Garden forever and not have the gift of choice. We would never sin, but on the other hand, goodness would have no merit. We would be spiritually stuck in neutral.

Edited December 20, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I am sorry to say that there are a few Catholic bishops, of whom one is probably the pope, who favor this idea that Jews can reject Christ and be saved under the Mosaic Law. For anyone who believes this, I wonder how it would work for the offspring of two Gentiles who converted to Judaism a thousand years ago.

Easy.

The could accept the gospel in the spirit world. No problem.

[3DOP]

Easy.

The could accept the gospel in the spirit world. No problem.

 

Yes. That works Mark, for LDS. Forgive me, I forget that option in your paradigm. But in my opinion, it doesn't seem to work for Cardinal Kasper...who hasn't spoken in favor of repentance after this mortal life.

Edited December 20, 2014 by 3DOP

[Canadaigua]

Was partaking of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil an "ordinance"?

The fall enabled us to be able to reach exaltation- without it, we would be stuck in the Garden forever and not have the gift of choice. We would never sin, but on the other hand, goodness would have no merit. We would be spiritually stuck in neutral.

I wasn't speaking about the fall rather I was speaking about animal sacrifice.

 

You said "Jewish priesthood is officially recognized by LDS theology"

 

Do you believe that people who are not LDS, do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and have not even been baptized have the authority to restore an ordinance of God?

[Canadaigua]

Yes to the extent of that authority if you leave out the part about denying Christ and having never been baptized and the part about not receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. . .

 

So belief in Christ, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost are not a requirement for a person to have authority from God?

[Calm]

Do you deny that the Jews and Israelites in the past lacked authority from God because they did not have a belief in Christ as Christ, baptism or the Gift of the Holy Ghost?

 

Was the Law of Moses of authority from God or not?

 

You can add those question to this one you didn't respond to as of yet:

 

Canadaigua, do you believe that the sacrifices performed in the temple at the time of Christ (and after his death for the short time they continued) were invalid because those performing them did not believe Christ was the Messiah or lacked baptism or anything else?

 

Edited December 20, 2014 by calmoriah

[Canadaigua]

Do you deny that the Jews and Israelites in the past lacked authority from God because they did not have a belief in Christ as Christ, baptism or the Gift of the Holy Ghost?

 

Was the Law of Moses of authority from God or not?

 

You can add those question to this one you didn't respond to as of yet:

Do you deny that the Jews and Israelites in the past lacked authority from God because they did not have a belief in Christ as Christ, baptism or the Gift of the Holy Ghost?  No

 

Was the Law of Moses of authority from God or not? Yes

 

Prior to the death of Christ they were under the Law which was given by God.  After the death of Christ we are no longer under the Law.

 

Now that I have answered your questions perhaps you could tell us about animal sacrifice and when LDS plan on starting up this OT ordinance?

[thesometimesaint]

Do you deny that the Jews and Israelites in the past lacked authority from God because they did not have a belief in Christ as Christ, baptism or the Gift of the Holy Ghost?  No

 

Was the Law of Moses of authority from God or not? Yes

 

Prior to the death of Christ they were under the Law which was given by God.  After the death of Christ we are no longer under the Law.

 

Now that I have answered your questions perhaps you could tell us about animal sacrifice and when LDS plan on starting up this OT ordinance?

 

We believe the Jews and Israelites' had the authority from God to the Priesthood. That authority was removed by God because of Apostasy.

 

Jesus the Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses making animal sacrifice no longer needed.

 

We are under the Law of Christ now.

 

The LDS have no plans to restart animal sacrifice for sin. Our sacrifice now is a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

[Calm]

 

Now that I have answered your questions perhaps you could tell us about animal sacrifice and when LDS plan on starting up this OT ordinance?

Apparently you don't actually read much of what others respond.  

 

You can find the answer in previous posts.  I see no reason to repeat what has already been stated more than sufficiently by myself and others.

[Robert F. Smith]

So you believe that Jews who deny Christ, have never been baptized nor received the gift of the Holy Ghost have authority that is recognized by the LDS church and can restore official ordinances?

In a future Jewish temple, yes.  Even Jesus recognized the authority of the High Priest Caiaphas in Jerusalem, even though that Priest specifically rejected Jesus as Christ during his interrogation:

Matthew 26:

62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

 

That same HP also had authority to prophesy:

John 11:

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

 

The sons of Levi still possess that lineal authority within their synagogues, and will do so in a future Jewish temple.  Thus, when on annual Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), the senior kohen in a Jewish congregation raises both hands over the congregation and gives them the official blessing, it is fully recognized by God.

Numbers 6:

24 The Lord bless thee, and keep thee:

25 The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

26 The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

Perhaps you have forgotten the context of the apocalyptic words of Zechariah about the last days, when the Jews will be beset on every side, in their greatest hour of need in Jerusalem, the Mount of Olives will be cleft in twain, and the Lord will descend unto them there (D&C 45:47-53):

Zechariah 13:

6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

 

Truly, "every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess" Jesus as Christ (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10-11), even if not according to your schedule.  For the times of the Gentiles are nearly at an end . . .