Animal Sacrifice Restored

[Vance]

"Sons of Levi" are inheritors of the Levitical Priesthood by birthright.  They do not need to be associated with the LDS church in any way.   Any "son of Levi" that is a member of the Church would be a member because they accept the validity of the final blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  They would have ZERO interest in preforming ANY more blood sacrifices.

 

It is rather obvious then, that any further animal/blood sacrifice would be,

 

1) unassociated with the LDS Church.

 

2) preformed by a non-Christian/non-LDS "son of Levi".

Edited January 1, 2015 by Vance

[Canadaigua]

You are really clueless when it comes to the LDS hierarchy of authority.

 

Scripture trumps other LDS publications, like manuals.  Especially when those manual quote non-church publications.

 

So, the scriptures I quoted trump what you quoted. 

So would you say that official LDS manuals contain false doctrine?  Is that really your position?

[mfbukowski]

So would you say that official LDS manuals contain false doctrine?  Is that really your position?

Surely you did not conclude that from what he said.

 

Read it again and figure it out.  There are other possibilities, or can't you see that?  Just want to teach you how to read critically and logically.

[Robert F. Smith]

Hello Robert,

 

If you care to, read my previous post again because I believe you misunderstood me, possibly because I didn't make myself clear enough. I do not at all believe Patriarchal Era blood sacrifices will be restored, quite the opposite. Rather, I believe the ancient sacrificial rites that we currently practice in our temples is what the prophet Joseph Smith was referring to in his statement on restored sacrifices. Whether the saints are aware of it or not, the rites of the temple are sacrificial in nature, though no actual blood is shed. The sacred rites we perform today in our temples were first practiced by the Patriarchs and by revelation they have been revealed again in our day. Additionally, I believe the offering of righteousness the sons of Levi will make will be fulfilled when they offer themselves as living sacrifices in the endowment ceremony in an LDS temple. In 3 Nephi, the Lord forcefully made it perfectly clear that He will accept no more sacrifices by the shedding of the blood of animals.

I take it that all endowed Mormons are fully aware of the Law of Sacrifice and of the Law of Consecration and Stewardship.  I can't imagine why anyone on this board would seriously believe that any blood sacrifices are in the offing for LDS temples.  At the same time, it has long been apparent to me that Mormons are generally ignorant of Jewish law and have no idea what it might mean that millions of Jews have returned to the Holy Land, or what they are going to do there.  Instead of building a Jewish temple in Jerusalem, you have them doing endowments in an LDS temple.  You leave no room for their idea of what is to take place.  You show no respect for the Sons of Levi among the Jews, even though the D&C does.  You seem blissfully unaware that Joseph sent Orson Hyde to the Holy Land, where he dedicated the land to the final gathering of the Jews in 1841.  What is that all about?  Are the Jews in your view merely a bunch of crypto-Mormons, or is something bigger taking place?

 

You are certainly entitled to any belief you choose to have, and you can exclude the Jews from a major partnership in the final, apocalyptic endeavor.  There are plenty of supercessionists within Mormonism, and they have some very narrow, selective views on what is or is not permissible.  See Steven Epperson, “Some Problems with Supersessionism in Mormon Thought,” BYU Studies, 34/4 (1994):125-136, a review of Robert L. Millet and Joseph F. McConkie, Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel (SLC: Bookcraft, 1993).  Online at https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/article/view/6222/5871.

 

Perhaps we will both have a front-row seat to such events in the future.  Then we will see how it all plays out, perhaps to the surprise of us both.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Canadaigua]

Surely you did not conclude that from what he said.

 

Read it again and figure it out.  There are other possibilities, or can't you see that?  Just want to teach you how to read critically and logically.

LDS.ORG—>Resources—>General—>Magazines and Manuals—>All Manuals—>Institute— >Doctrine and Covenants (Student Manual)—>Section 13—>D and C 13:1 

 

D&C 13:1. What Is Meant by the Sons of Levi Offering an Offering of Righteousness unto the Lord?

The Prophet Joseph Smith commented as follows on this scripture:

“It is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice [i.e.,] the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in the future; but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the Priesthood, or with the Prophets.

“The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the Priesthood. It began with the Priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. …

“These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchizedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the Holy Prophets be brought to pass. It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and variety of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the prophets; but those things which existed prior to Moses’ day, namely, sacrifice, will be continued.” (Teachings, pp. 172–73.)

President Joseph Fielding Smith further explained that “we are living in the dispensation of the fulness of times into which all things are to be gathered, and all things are to be restored since the beginning. Even this earth is to be restored to the condition which prevailed before Adam’s transgression. Now in the nature of things, the law of sacrifice will have to be restored, or all things which were decreed by the Lord would not be restored. It will be necessary, therefore, for the sons of Levi, who offered the blood sacrifices anciently in Israel, to offer such a sacrifice again to round out and complete this ordinance in this dispensation. Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored.

“The sacrifice of animals will be done to complete the restoration when the temple spoken of is built; at the beginning of the millennium, or in the restoration, blood sacrifices will be performed long enough to complete the fulness of the restoration in this dispensation. Afterwards sacrifice will be of some other character.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 3:94.)

 

 

Perhaps you could clear it up for me then.  The above quote is from an official LDS Manual.  It says "Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored."

Will the LDS church restore animal sacrifices as discussed in the above quote?

[mfbukowski]

LDS.ORG—>Resources—>General—>Magazines and Manuals—>All Manuals—>Institute— >Doctrine and Covenants (Student Manual)—>Section 13—>D and C 13:1 

 

D&C 13:1. What Is Meant by the Sons of Levi Offering an Offering of Righteousness unto the Lord?

The Prophet Joseph Smith commented as follows on this scripture:

“It is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice [i.e.,] the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in the future; but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the Priesthood, or with the Prophets.

“The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the Priesthood. It began with the Priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. …

“These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchizedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the Holy Prophets be brought to pass. It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and variety of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the prophets; but those things which existed prior to Moses’ day, namely, sacrifice, will be continued.” (Teachings, pp. 172–73.)

President Joseph Fielding Smith further explained that “we are living in the dispensation of the fulness of times into which all things are to be gathered, and all things are to be restored since the beginning. Even this earth is to be restored to the condition which prevailed before Adam’s transgression. Now in the nature of things, the law of sacrifice will have to be restored, or all things which were decreed by the Lord would not be restored. It will be necessary, therefore, for the sons of Levi, who offered the blood sacrifices anciently in Israel, to offer such a sacrifice again to round out and complete this ordinance in this dispensation. Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored.

“The sacrifice of animals will be done to complete the restoration when the temple spoken of is built; at the beginning of the millennium, or in the restoration, blood sacrifices will be performed long enough to complete the fulness of the restoration in this dispensation. Afterwards sacrifice will be of some other character.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 3:94.)

 

 

Perhaps you could clear it up for me then.  The above quote is from an official LDS Manual.  It says "Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored."

Will the LDS church restore animal sacrifices as discussed in the above quote?

I guess you are not reading what has already been said.

The sacrifices will be offered, but not by LDS. Read the thread. If you are not willing to discuss and answer what has been said, you don't belong here.

[CV75]

I'm not sure who to direct this to, since there are so many participants suggesting similar things.

But what I’m seeing discussed here is a future restoration of animal sacrifice through a literal descendant of Aaron Levi that is not LDS. If he (having a legal right to the lesser priesthood) cannot exercise it without being set apart by a High Priest (per D&C 68 and 107), I’m not sure how he could restore an ordinance independent of First Presidency keys and oversight (D&C 27:6, 132:45). Since the keys of restoration have already passed from Peter, James and John to Joseph Smith and his successors, and these keys are not inherent in the Levitical bloodline or priesthood (only the right to the priesthood is inherent), I don’t see how a restoration could occur outside the pattern we’re accustomed to.

Perhaps the phrase “until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness” refers to those literal descendants authorized to perform the restored sacrifices once they are converted to the Church, or to any who is authorized to carry out the ordinances and performances of the Aaronic / Levitical priesthood(s).

I find the idea of a parallel restoration (perhaps under its own parallel First Presidency), or an extra-First Presidency restoration interesting, but D&C 27:12-13 indicates all things will be gathered together through the First Presidency as we know it.
 
ETA:
Two other scriptures also indicate that the sons of Levi will operate under the direction of those with the restored keys. The second one in particular seems to predict that the offering will be made after the Second Coming and that the concurrent/subsequent purification of the sons of Levi is prerequisite to their being able to perform their duties "in righteousness."

D&C 124:39: “Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name. “

D&C 128:24: “Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand; and who can abide the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap; and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation.”

Edited January 3, 2015 by CV75

[mfbukowski]

I'm not sure who to direct this to, since there are so many participants suggesting similar things.

But what I’m seeing discussed here is a future restoration of animal sacrifice through a literal descendant of Aaron Levi that is not LDS. If he (having a legal right to the lesser priesthood) cannot exercise it without being set apart by a High Priest (per D&C 68 and 107), I’m not sure how he could restore an ordinance independent of First Presidency keys and oversight (D&C 27:6, 132:45). Since the keys of restoration have already passed from Peter, James and John to Joseph Smith and his successors, and these keys are not inherent in the Levitical bloodline or priesthood (only the right to the priesthood is inherent), I don’t see how a restoration could occur outside the pattern we’re accustomed to.

Perhaps the phrase “until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness” refers to those literal descendants authorized to perform the restored sacrifices once they are converted to the Church, or to any who is authorized to carry out the ordinances and performances of the Aaronic / Levitical priesthood(s).

I find the idea of a parallel restoration (perhaps under its own parallel First Presidency), or an extra-First Presidency restoration interesting, but D&C 27:12-13 indicates all things will be gathered together through the First Presidency as we know it.

 

ETA:

Two other scriptures also indicate that the sons of Levi will operate under the direction of those with the restored keys. The second one in particular seems to predict that the offering will be made after the Second Coming and that the concurrent/subsequent purification of the sons of Levi is prerequisite to their being able to perform their duties "in righteousness."

D&C 124:39: “Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name. “

D&C 128:24: “Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand; and who can abide the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap; and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation.”

I'm not locked into the position that they will or will not be LDS, but I am not sure that you refute that. I was just offering an alternate reading- if it is wrong, it is wrong, no problem. I was wrong once before in.... I think 1987... and I survived somehow.

Yes LDS ordinances must be administered by priesthood holders- no question. But where does it actually say that this is an "ordinance"? I am not sure that "keys" are necessary.

"Purification" is not ordination.

And in my opinion "memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi" happen every day in our temples. Note the word "memorial". A "memorial" is a symbolic act, not the act itself. The sacrament is "in memory" of Christ's sacrifice as well- but it does not repeat it.

But like I said, I really have no problem with it being literal- I just find it a messy idea.

[CV75]

I'm not locked into the position that they will or will not be LDS, but I am not sure that you refute that. I was just offering an alternate reading- if it is wrong, it is wrong, no problem. I was wrong once before in.... I think 1987... and I survived somehow.

I appreciate that; same here! I enjoyed the various interpretations, especially the reminder that the Lord still has an ancient chosen people He is calling forth and gathering in addition to the Lamanites… I figured I was wrong way back in post #17!

 

Yes LDS ordinances must be administered by priesthood holders- no question. But where does it actually say that this is an "ordinance"? I am not sure that "keys" are necessary.

"Purification" is not ordination.

And in my opinion "memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi" happen every day in our temples. Note the word "memorial". A "memorial" is a symbolic act, not the act itself. The sacrament is "in memory" of Christ's sacrifice as well- but it does not repeat it.

But like I said, I really have no problem with it being literal- I just find it a messy idea.

I think the animal sacrifices were part of the Levitical priesthood “performances and ordinances” under the Law of Moses as well as part of those performed by the High Priests under the authorities of prior dispensations. I Googled a number of Ensign articles about it (two good ones below):

“The primary purpose of the ordinance of sacrifice was a remembrance and recommitment…” https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/12/the-priesthood-ordinance-of-sacrifice?lang=eng

 

“The law of sacrifice was thus one of the first recorded ordinances revealed to man.” https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/09/sacrifices-and-offerings-foreshadowings-of-christ?lang=eng

 

D&C 124:39, “Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your …memorials [remembrances / reminders] for your sacrifices [performances and ordinances] by the sons of Levi …are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house…”

Everything we do by virtue of the priesthood is only possible because the keys to do them are held by the living prophets (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/the-keys-and-authority-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng). “Every act or ordinance performed in the Church is done under the direct or indirect authorization of one holding the keys for that function.”

The “purification” I refer to (from 128:24) is a purging the Lord performs upon the sons of Levi so that they can carry out their duties in righteousness, and this seems to occur in direct connection (just prior to and/or concurrent with) His Second Coming. In a sense, we could well be those sons of Levi (D&C 84: 6, 31-34).

I think it appropriate to consider the sacrament and Levite performances in terms of being memorials (reminders) of Christ’s sacrifice, albeit the sacrifices were reminders to “look forward” (2 Ne. 25: 24; Jarom 1: 11; Alma 25: 15) rather than backward. But we need to be reminded of things as they were, as they are to come, and even as they are!

 

Thanks again for your thoughts!

Edited January 3, 2015 by CV75

[Canadaigua]

"Sons of Levi" are inheritors of the Levitical Priesthood by birthright.  They do not need to be associated with the LDS church in any way.   Any "son of Levi" that is a member of the Church would be a member because they accept the validity of the final blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  They would have ZERO interest in preforming ANY more blood sacrifices.

 

It is rather obvious then, that any further animal/blood sacrifice would be,

 

1) unassociated with the LDS Church.

 

2) preformed by a non-Christian/non-LDS "son of Levi".

"Sons of Levi" are inheritors of the Levitical Priesthood by birthright.  They do not need to be associated with the LDS church in any way.  

Then priesthood authority was never lost from the earth during the "apostasy".  Is that what you believe?

 

Any "son of Levi" that is a member of the Church would be a member because they accept the validity of the final blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  They would have ZERO interest in preforming ANY more blood sacrifices.

Why did your prophet/leaders/official publications teach that animal sacrifice WILL be RESTORED?

 

 

It is rather obvious then, that any further animal/blood sacrifice would be,

1) unassociated with the LDS Church.

2) preformed by a non-Christian/non-LDS "son of Levi".

Can non-LDS (i.e. those who do not have proper authority) RESTORE ordinances?

[mfbukowski]

I appreciate that; same here! I enjoyed the various interpretations, especially the reminder that the Lord still has an ancient chosen people He is calling forth and gathering in addition to the Lamanites… I figured I was wrong way back in post #17!

 

I think the animal sacrifices were part of the Levitical priesthood “performances and ordinances” under the Law of Moses as well as part of those performed by the High Priests under the authorities of prior dispensations. I Googled a number of Ensign articles about it (two good ones below):

“The primary purpose of the ordinance of sacrifice was a remembrance and recommitment…” https://www.lds.org/ensign/1973/12/the-priesthood-ordinance-of-sacrifice?lang=eng

 

“The law of sacrifice was thus one of the first recorded ordinances revealed to man.” https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/09/sacrifices-and-offerings-foreshadowings-of-christ?lang=eng

 

D&C 124:39, “Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your …memorials [remembrances / reminders] for your sacrifices [performances and ordinances] by the sons of Levi …are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house…”

Everything we do by virtue of the priesthood is only possible because the keys to do them are held by the living prophets (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/the-keys-and-authority-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng). “Every act or ordinance performed in the Church is done under the direct or indirect authorization of one holding the keys for that function.”

The “purification” I refer to (from 128:24) is a purging the Lord performs upon the sons of Levi so that they can carry out their duties in righteousness, and this seems to occur in direct connection (just prior to and/or concurrent with) His Second Coming. In a sense, we could well be those sons of Levi (D&C 84: 6, 31-34).

I think it appropriate to consider the sacrament and Levite performances in terms of being memorials (reminders) of Christ’s sacrifice, albeit the sacrifices were reminders to “look forward” (2 Ne. 25: 24; Jarom 1: 11; Alma 25: 15) rather than backward. But we need to be reminded of things as they were, as they are to come, and even as they are!

 

Thanks again for your thoughts!

Hmmmm....

Well I will certainly concede there is enough ammo there to support your interpretation, but I can also still see it my way and am not ready to concede completely

Clearly sacrifice of animals, from your quotes "was" an "ordinance", but I am not convinced it still is.

Listen carefully next time you do initiatory ordinances some of which used to be done one way but are now done "only symbolically", and the way they used to be done makes a direct reference to the old testament. As does this.

So is that a clue that ordinances entailing sacrifice, and their "remembrance" as they are done in the temple today AND in sacrament meeting could be seen as what these quotes are referring to.

 

In fact I can interpret all these quotes my way too!

 

“The primary purpose of the ordinance of sacrifice WAS a remembrance and recommitment..."

“The law of sacrifice WAS thus one of the first recorded ordinances revealed to man."

 

 

Both these are past tense!

D&C 128:24

 

 24 Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand; and who can abide the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap; and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation.

I see this as referring to US as "sons of Levi" but it doesn't say anything about animal sacrifice- and clearly DOES refer to temple work of the kind we do today- the "offering" here is a book containing all the records or our dead.  The offering is not animal sacrifice, I would argue because this new offering has replaced it.

The “purification” I refer to (from 128:24) is a purging the Lord performs upon the sons of Levi so that they can carry out their duties in righteousness, and this seems to occur in direct connection (just prior to and/or concurrent with) His Second Coming. In a sense, we could well be those sons of Levi

Yep, we could well be those sons of Levi!  I go to the temple often.

 

And yes, of course I concede that one must have priesthood authority to perform ordinances.  I already conceded that.

 

Of course the sons of Levi in ancient Israel HAD such authority. but they do not, yet they still could be "sons of Levi" in a literal sense- a direct descendant of Levi and still offer sacrifices- which are not "ordinances" of the gospel today.

So no problem, on that view, with this:

 

D&C 124:39, “Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your …memorials [remembrances / reminders] for your sacrifices [performances and ordinances] by the sons of Levi …are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house…”

And in fact that is more evidence that the sacrifices referred to are in the temple today, done by the Priesthood "descendants" (NOT literal descendants) of Levi.

 

In fact I think you really had to do some creative editing to come up with that quote!  Pretty tricky!  read it in context!

 39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

CLEARLY this is referring to our present temple and not animal sacrifice.  AND it is referring to US as Sons of Levi!!

 

"Memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi," are done in the temples today!

 

We commemorate the law of sacrifice and take it upon us as a covenant, just as we do in Sacrament Meeting!

 

So I am still willing to think some day that the prophet is going to dress up and slice some bovine's  throat, but I really doubt it.

Edited January 4, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Can non-LDS (i.e. those who do not have proper authority) RESTORE ordinances?

1- Not "ordinances"

2- The nation of Israel was restored- and no LDS people were involved in that

 

Some argue that the entire explosion of technology- the internet etc happened because of the restoration.  No difference here.  Some Israeli Kohens kill an animal in newly built Jewish temple.  No problem.  Prophecy fulfilled just as the prophecy of the restoration of Israel was fulfilled.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

We have to find a red heifer first.

Is see no red heifer mentioned

 

In the Journal of Wandle Mace the following is recorded: "Joseph told them to go to Kirtland, and cleanse and purify a certain room in the Temple, that they must kill a lamb and offer a sacrifice unto the Lord which should prepare them to ordain Willard Richards a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" ("Journal of Wandle Mace," p. 32, microfilmed copy at Brigham Young University Library).

 

Joseph Fielding Smith said that "the law of sacrifice will have to be restored.... Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.94).

 

It is interesting to note that even though the Mormon church teaches animal sacrifice after the death of Christ, they cannot

find any support for this doctrine in the Book of Mormon. In fact, the Book of Mormon condemns it in the strongest terms.  In 3 Nephi 9:19 Jesus was supposed to have said: "And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings."

 

It will be necessary here to make a few observations on the doctrine set forth in the above quotation [Malachi 3:3], and it is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice {i.e., the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus} was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in future: but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the priesthood, or with the Prophets.

 

The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the Priesthood. It began with the Priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. We frequently have mention made of the offering of sacrifice by the servants of the Most High in ancient days, prior to the law of Moses; which ordinances will be continued when the Priesthood is restored with all its authority, power and blessings. . . .

 

These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchisedic Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the holy Prophets be brought to pass? It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and variety of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the Prophets; but those things which existed prior to Moses' day, namely, sacrifice, will be continued.

 

It may be asked by some, what necessity for sacrifice, since the Great Sacrifice was offered? In answer to which, if repentance, baptism, and faith existed prior to the days of Christ, what necessity for them since that time? The Priesthood has descended in a regular line from father to son, through their succeeding generations. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 Vols. 4:211-12)

 

3 Words of Oliver B. Huntington: I heard the Prophet reply to the question: "Will there ever be any more offering of sheep and heifers and bullocks upon altars, as used to be required of Israel?"

 

He said: "Yes, there will; for there were never any rites, ordinances of laws in the priesthood of any gospel dispensation upon this earth but what will have to be finished and perfected in this last dispensation of time—the dispensation of all dispensations." (Hyrum L. Andrus and Helen Mae Andrus, comps., They Knew the Prophet, p. 62)

 

1844. Letter to the brethren scattered from Zion, Kirtland, 22 January 1834.

 1845. Article on priesthood read at general conference, Nauvoo, 5 October 1840.

 1846. Recollection of Oliver B. Huntington, published in the Young Woman's Journal, March 1893.

 

RESTORATION OF BLOOD SACRIFICES. We are living in the dispensation of the fulness of times into which all things are to be gathered, and all things are to be restored since the beginning. Even this earth is to be restored to the condition which prevailed before Adam's transgression. 44 Now in the nature of things, the law of sacrifice will have to be restored, or all things which were decreed by the Lord would not be restored. It will be necessary, therefore, for the sons of Levi, who offered the blood sacrifices anciently in Israel, to offer such a sacrifice again to round out and complete this ordinance in this dispensation. Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored. 45

 

The sacrifice of animals will be done to complete the restoration when the temple spoken of is built; at the beginning of the millennium, or in the restoration, blood sacrifices will be performed long enough to complete the fulness of the restoration in this dispensation. Afterwards sacrifice will be of some other character.

 

Doctrine of Salvation vol 3 page 94 Joseph Field Smith

 

Didn't Joseph Fielding Smith read Hebrews 7?

 

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. 

[Calm]

Cut and pasting from an antimormon work without attribution (plagiarism) is supposed to impress us?

Edited January 4, 2015 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

Is see no red heifer mentioned

 

In the Journal of Wandle Mace the following is recorded: "Joseph told them to go to Kirtland, and cleanse and purify a certain room in the Temple, that they must kill a lamb and offer a sacrifice unto the Lord which should prepare them to ordain Willard Richards a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" ("Journal of Wandle Mace," p. 32, microfilmed copy at Brigham Young University Library).

 

Joseph Fielding Smith said that "the law of sacrifice will have to be restored.... Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.94).

 

It is interesting to note that even though the Mormon church teaches animal sacrifice after the death of Christ, they cannot

find any support for this doctrine in the Book of Mormon. In fact, the Book of Mormon condemns it in the strongest terms.  In 3 Nephi 9:19 Jesus was supposed to have said: "And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings."

 

It will be necessary here to make a few observations on the doctrine set forth in the above quotation [Malachi 3:3], and it is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away when the Great Sacrifice {i.e., the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus} was offered up, and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in future: but those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the priesthood, or with the Prophets.

 

The offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the Priesthood. It began with the Priesthood, and will be continued until after the coming of Christ, from generation to generation. We frequently have mention made of the offering of sacrifice by the servants of the Most High in ancient days, prior to the law of Moses; which ordinances will be continued when the Priesthood is restored with all its authority, power and blessings. . . .

 

These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchisedic Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the holy Prophets be brought to pass? It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and variety of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the Prophets; but those things which existed prior to Moses' day, namely, sacrifice, will be continued.

 

It may be asked by some, what necessity for sacrifice, since the Great Sacrifice was offered? In answer to which, if repentance, baptism, and faith existed prior to the days of Christ, what necessity for them since that time? The Priesthood has descended in a regular line from father to son, through their succeeding generations. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 Vols. 4:211-12)

 

3 Words of Oliver B. Huntington: I heard the Prophet reply to the question: "Will there ever be any more offering of sheep and heifers and bullocks upon altars, as used to be required of Israel?"

 

He said: "Yes, there will; for there were never any rites, ordinances of laws in the priesthood of any gospel dispensation upon this earth but what will have to be finished and perfected in this last dispensation of time—the dispensation of all dispensations." (Hyrum L. Andrus and Helen Mae Andrus, comps., They Knew the Prophet, p. 62)

 

1844. Letter to the brethren scattered from Zion, Kirtland, 22 January 1834.

 1845. Article on priesthood read at general conference, Nauvoo, 5 October 1840.

 1846. Recollection of Oliver B. Huntington, published in the Young Woman's Journal, March 1893.

 

RESTORATION OF BLOOD SACRIFICES. We are living in the dispensation of the fulness of times into which all things are to be gathered, and all things are to be restored since the beginning. Even this earth is to be restored to the condition which prevailed before Adam's transgression. 44 Now in the nature of things, the law of sacrifice will have to be restored, or all things which were decreed by the Lord would not be restored. It will be necessary, therefore, for the sons of Levi, who offered the blood sacrifices anciently in Israel, to offer such a sacrifice again to round out and complete this ordinance in this dispensation. Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored. 45

 

The sacrifice of animals will be done to complete the restoration when the temple spoken of is built; at the beginning of the millennium, or in the restoration, blood sacrifices will be performed long enough to complete the fulness of the restoration in this dispensation. Afterwards sacrifice will be of some other character.

 

Doctrine of Salvation vol 3 page 94 Joseph Field Smith

 

Didn't Joseph Fielding Smith read Hebrews 7?

 

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. 

None of these are doctrinal sources, and all but the Joseph Fielding Smith statement mention animal sacrifice directly.

 

The law of sacrifice HAS been restored, symbolically.  Perhaps this was not fully understood in the early church.

 

Isolated statements by prophets are not doctrinal.  Publication by the church does not create doctrine.

 

The nature of "doctrine" has been debated forever on this board, and many think that such a thing does not exist for LDS. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/04/is-there-any-mormon-doctrine/

 

Like it or not, that's the truth.

 

Our beliefs are highly variable and governed largely by "orthopraxis" which essentially means living within a certain lifestyle, which includes some broad beliefs about the Joseph being a prophet, the belief in Jesus Christ, etc.

 

None of these statements are necessarily "doctrine"

• • Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
  • Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

   

  http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

Even though this is itself published on the church website, it fits none of the criteria for "doctrine" it mentions, so many debate if these statement is itself even "doctrine"

 

Go ahead and search this forum to see how many threads have debated what doctrine is.

 

But clearly this discussion by ANY measure is

The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

 

So I would suggest that if you do not even understand this starting off, you have no business on this thread.

 

This thread is for LDS who are familiar with these issues.

Edited January 4, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Cut and pasting from an antimormon work without attribution (plagiarism) is supposed to impress us?

Unfortunately even that doesn't make the point he thought it did.

[Robert F. Smith]

I appreciate that; same here! I enjoyed the various interpretations, especially the reminder that the Lord still has an ancient chosen people He is calling forth and gathering in addition to the Lamanites… I figured I was wrong way back in post #17!

 

.........................................................................  

 

...........................................................   

But what I’m seeing discussed here is a future restoration of animal sacrifice through a literal descendant of Aaron Levi that is not LDS. If he (having a legal right to the lesser priesthood) cannot exercise it without being set apart by a High Priest (per D&C 68 and 107), I’m not sure how he could restore an ordinance independent of First Presidency keys and oversight (D&C 27:6, 132:45). Since the keys of restoration have already passed from Peter, James and John to Joseph Smith and his successors, and these keys are not inherent in the Levitical bloodline or priesthood (only the right to the priesthood is inherent), I don’t see how a restoration could occur outside the pattern we’re accustomed to.

Perhaps the phrase “until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness” refers to those literal descendants authorized to perform the restored sacrifices once they are converted to the Church, or to any who is authorized to carry out the ordinances and performances of the Aaronic / Levitical priesthood(s).

I find the idea of a parallel restoration (perhaps under its own parallel First Presidency), or an extra-First Presidency restoration interesting, but D&C 27:12-13 indicates all things will be gathered together through the First Presidency as we know it.

 

ETA:

Two other scriptures also indicate that the sons of Levi will operate under the direction of those with the restored keys. The second one in particular seems to predict that the offering will be made after the Second Coming and that the concurrent/subsequent purification of the sons of Levi is prerequisite to their being able to perform their duties "in righteousness."

D&C 124:39: “Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name. “

D&C 128:24: “Behold, the great day of the Lord is at hand; and who can abide the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fuller’s soap; and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation.”

 

The “purification” I refer to (from 128:24) is a purging the Lord performs upon the sons of Levi so that they can carry out their duties in righteousness, and this seems to occur in direct connection (just prior to and/or concurrent with) His Second Coming. In a sense, we could well be those sons of Levi (D&C 84: 6, 31-34).

I think it appropriate to consider the sacrament and Levite performances in terms of being memorials (reminders) of Christ’s sacrifice, albeit the sacrifices were reminders to “look forward” (2 Ne. 25: 24; Jarom 1: 11; Alma 25: 15) rather than backward. But we need to be reminded of things as they were, as they are to come, and even as they are!

..................................................

Of course, you are correct about the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper being a memorial, the table on which it is offered being a stand-in for the sacrificial altar at the Temple in Jerusalem, the bread and water being emblems of the body and blood of the sacrificial Lamb of God, offered at Passover.  This is also generally true of the Roman Catholic Mass, and of the Protestant communion table.

 

However, we are not discussing Christian rites, but Jewish ones.  You find the notion "interesting," but see only an LDS fulfillment of all things, no matter what.  You may have on a set of blinders or suffer a blind spot (not so strange within the LDS communion) which ignores the wise words of the Brethren.

 

Orson F. Whitney:

"[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves."

 

Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Fielding Smith (SLC: CJCLDS, 2013), 272, citing Conference Report, Oct 1919, pages 89-90,

"I am in full accord with the idea that has been expressed that the Lord is using many agencies; his work is not confined to the Latter-day Saints, for he has called many to his service outside of the Church and has endowed them with power, has inspired them to do his work. … However, my brethren and sisters, do not let us lose sight of the fact that we are a power in the earth for good and for the spread of the truth and the establishment of peace among all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples."

 

As pointed out in 2013, at a BYU symposium, Mormon exegesis of Isaiah 2:2-3 is frequently in error:  Jeffrey R. Chadwick, “The Great Jerusalem Temple Prophecy–Latter-day Context and Likening Unto Us,” in David Rolph Seely, Jeffrey R. Chadwick, and Matthew J. Grey, eds., Ascending the Mountain of the Lord: Temple, Praise, and Worship in the Old Testament (BYU Religious Studies Center, 2013),

 

By the way, CV75, in your comment on "a future restoration of animal sacrifice through a literal descendant of Aaron Levi that is not LDS," you appear not to understand that there are levels of priesthood within the Tribe of Levi, Aaron being the source of the top level (kohen "priest"), his descendants being  among those allowed to be "high priests," i.e., the chief priests.  The rest of the Levites are assistants to those descendants of Aaron.  However, all are Sons of Levi.  LDS members who function in the Aaronic Priesthood do so through ordination, which is never required for members of the tribe of Levi functioning on behalf of the Jewish people.  Also the LDS hold such jobs instead of Levites -- in the stead of Levites, who would otherwise be entitled to it by literal descent.

 

You clearly believe that all priesthood power was removed from the Levites long ago, and that they possess no more priesthood authority than Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Anglican priests.  I just don't believe that that is the way God sees it (the D&C singles out the literal descendants of Aaron).  The two traditions will eventually run together, but not in the way you see it.

[CV75]

So I am still willing to think some day that the prophet is going to dress up and slice some bovine's  throat, but I really doubt it.

You clearly believe that all priesthood power was removed from the Levites long ago, and that they possess no more priesthood authority than Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Anglican priests. I just don't believe that that is the way God sees it (the D&C singles out the literal descendants of Aaron). The two traditions will eventually run together, but not in the way you see it.

Here is what I first wrote:

I do, but I may be mistaken! I'm sure there are ways for the “sons of Levi [to] offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness" outside of animal sacrifice. But I don't see a restoration of animal sacrifice as inconsistent with the reason for our not practicing animal sacrifice today (the Lord having accomplished the anticipated Sacrifice); He may well command that it be practiced again with retroactive recognition of His Sacrifice, or with additional significance.

With that in mind:

Well I will certainly concede there is enough ammo there to support your interpretation, but I can also still see it my way and am not ready to concede completely

Don’t get me wrong—I can see it both ways too and am not asking you to think one way or the other.

Clearly animal sacrifice it is not a currently authorized LDS ordinance under the law of sacrifice and others have replaced it. But the discussion is about the sons of Levi again offering them, suggesting a restoration. This leads to questions of exactly what is to be restored; what “in righteousness” means in terms of current Jewish and LDS priesthood structures; and the Aaronic Priesthood being taken from the earth (in connection with the earthly kingdom giving way to the Church of the Firstborn, including subordinating bloodline to sealing).

This is why either way, D&C 124:39 -- my edit (not to use it out of context but to show that animal sacrifice was an ordinance) or the verse in full -- doesn’t preclude the restoration of animal sacrifice during the rest of the Restoration as the OP suggested. Given the nature of how things are restored and also given new meaning, maybe there is something to it.

 

However, we are not discussing Christian rites, but Jewish ones. You find the notion "interesting," but see only an LDS fulfillment of all things, no matter what. You may have on a set of blinders or suffer a blind spot (not so strange within the LDS communion) which ignores the wise words of the Brethren.

*Ahem* My conversion to the LDS faith is a by-product of the Lord using non-LDS instruments to carry out His work. No members, no missionaries, no Church “agents” involved in my introduction and indoctrination during the many years leading to my adult baptism (I first read Alma 29:8 as a 13-year old boy). I now associate with non-LDS agencies that I believe carry out the Lord’s work. But I maintain the Church is the only place I can find a legitimate temple, the base of operations for all I hope to become (the Lord’s House).

I do believe a fulfillment of "LDS prophecy" would be an "LDS fulfillment," no matter who fulfills it. I hadn't thought of that in terms of the LDS co-opting the Old and New Testament prophecies as solely our own, as we do have the other standard works that prophesy many of the same things...

With regards to my understanding that the current traditional Levitical priesthood also has an “in” with or an “option” within the LDS priesthood structure, I take that allowance as akin to the liberality with which the Spirit of Elijah operates through more than one agency, Jew and Gentile. And some agencies carry out the Lord’s work more peripherally, and some more intentionally than others. My remarks are not meant to contest which agency is more important to whom or for what purpose, only to identify the route or point of restoration in the event one would be made. Do you believe the Lord will restore some keys outside of the Restored Church (that is where I am coming from)?

Edited January 4, 2015 by CV75

[Hestia]

Do not cut and paste without giving the source material.

[mfbukowski]

You clearly believe that all priesthood power was removed from the Levites long ago, and that they possess no more priesthood authority than Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Anglican priests.  I just don't believe that that is the way God sees it (the D&C singles out the literal descendants of Aaron).  The two traditions will eventually run together, but not in the way you see it.

I see that as analogous to the "Blessings of Abraham" and the Abrahamic covenant.

 

We still see Israel as the "promised land" and believe that the blessings of Abraham have now gone throughout humanity.  WE see ourselves as descendants of Ephraim and as being blessed for that and being a covenant people.

 

My no means have those blessings from the Old Testament been removed from the earth.

[mfbukowski]

Here is what I first wrote:

With that in mind:

Don’t get me wrong—I can see it both ways too and am not asking you to think one way or the other.

Clearly animal sacrifice it is not a currently authorized LDS ordinance under the law of sacrifice and others have replaced it. But the discussion is about the sons of Levi again offering them, suggesting a restoration. This leads to questions of exactly what is to be restored; what “in righteousness” means in terms of current Jewish and LDS priesthood structures; and the Aaronic Priesthood being taken from the earth (in connection with the earthly kingdom giving way to the Church of the Firstborn, including subordinating bloodline to sealing).

This is why either way, D&C 124:39 -- my edit (not to use it out of context but to show that animal sacrifice was an ordinance) or the verse in full -- doesn’t preclude the restoration of animal sacrifice during the rest of the Restoration as the OP suggested. Given the nature of how things are restored and also given new meaning, maybe there is something to it.

 

*Ahem* My conversion to the LDS faith is a by-product of the Lord using non-LDS instruments to carry out His work. No members, no missionaries, no Church “agents” involved in my introduction and indoctrination during the many years leading to my adult baptism (I first read Alma 29:8 as a 13-year old boy). I now associate with non-LDS agencies that I believe carry out the Lord’s work. But I maintain the Church is the only place I can find a legitimate temple, the base of operations for all I hope to become (the Lord’s House).

I do believe a fulfillment of "LDS prophecy" would be an "LDS fulfillment," no matter who fulfills it. I hadn't thought of that in terms of the LDS co-opting the Old and New Testament prophecies as solely our own, as we do have the other standard works that prophesy many of the same things...

With regards to my understanding that the current traditional Levitical priesthood also has an “in” with or an “option” within the LDS priesthood structure, I take that allowance as akin to the liberality with which the Spirit of Elijah operates through more than one agency, Jew and Gentile. And some agencies carry out the Lord’s work more peripherally, and some more intentionally than others. My remarks are not meant to contest which agency is more important to whom or for what purpose, only to identify the route or point of restoration in the event one would be made. Do you believe the Lord will restore some keys outside of the Restored Church (that is where I am coming from)?

I think we are pretty much on the same page really, maybe some minor differences.

 

As far as keys being restored, I have no clue.  It is perhaps a possibility.  All the tribes and records of Israel have not yet been found- who knows what blessings they have to give to us.

 

I am pretty open minded about all this stuff obviously- "continuing revelation" means what it says.

[CV75]

I think we are pretty much on the same page really, maybe some minor differences.

 

As far as keys being restored, I have no clue.  It is perhaps a possibility.  All the tribes and records of Israel have not yet been found- who knows what blessings they have to give to us.

 

I am pretty open minded about all this stuff obviously- "continuing revelation" means what it says.

Cool.

As would be expected from Handbook 2, the kingdom of God on earth is His Church, and any other agency would have to get its own keys!

“Priesthood keys are the authority God has given to priesthood leaders to direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth. The exercise of priesthood authority is governed by those who hold its keys (see D&C 65:2; 81:2; 124:123). Those who hold priesthood keys have the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction.

“Jesus Christ holds all the keys of the priesthood pertaining to His Church. He has conferred upon each of His Apostles all the keys that pertain to the kingdom of God on earth. The senior living Apostle, the President of the Church, is the only person on earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys (see D&C 43:1–4; 81:2; 107:64–67, 91–92; 132:7).” https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/priesthood-principles?lang=eng

It would be unfortunate to have a latter-day jurisdictional issue arise amongst the tribes or agencies over the keys of the kingdom (now where have I seen that before)!

[mfbukowski]

It would be unfortunate to have a latter-day jurisdictional issue arise amongst the tribes or agencies over the keys of the kingdom (now where have I seen that before)!

YEAH!

Like who is in charge of cub scouts anyway??  Primary or the Scouts?

 

Whose budget gets dinged for the Blue and Gold dinner?  

[mfbukowski]

Cool.

As would be expected from Handbook 2, the kingdom of God on earth is His Church, and any other agency would have to get its own keys!

“Priesthood keys are the authority God has given to priesthood leaders to direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth. The exercise of priesthood authority is governed by those who hold its keys (see D&C 65:2; 81:2; 124:123). Those who hold priesthood keys have the right to preside over and direct the Church within a jurisdiction.

“Jesus Christ holds all the keys of the priesthood pertaining to His Church. He has conferred upon each of His Apostles all the keys that pertain to the kingdom of God on earth. The senior living Apostle, the President of the Church, is the only person on earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys (see D&C 43:1–4; 81:2; 107:64–67, 91–92; 132:7).” https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/priesthood-principles?lang=eng

It would be unfortunate to have a latter-day jurisdictional issue arise amongst the tribes or agencies over the keys of the kingdom (now where have I seen that before)!

But what is your point then?

 

That you must have priesthood keys to be a legitimate "restoring entity" or not?

[Robert F. Smith]

..........................................................................  

.................................... Do you believe the Lord will restore some keys outside of the Restored Church (that is where I am coming from)?

I don't know the vehicle by which the Jewish end of things will come to a head, though it is clear that there are no cooperative ventures with the LDS in that arena now.  There may be some discrete action by the LDS Brethren, just as Joseph did in sending Orson Hyde to Palestine to begin the final gathering of the Jews, something which escaped notice by the Jews themselves (Theodor Herzl and Chaim Weizmann were undoubtedly unaware), until  more modern times.  Keys?  Don't know, and doubt that the Jews are interested in any way.  Mormons have a very hard time imagining that any authentic religious events can take place outside their bailiwick, and the Jews are not religious ingenues.

 

Could Apostle Hyde's words as one called to make that dedication of the Holy Land be construed as authority or keys?  He said, in part, "to dedicate and consecrate this land unto Thee, for the gathering together of Judah's scattered remnants, according to the predictions of the holy Prophets -- for the building up of Jerusalem again after it has been trodden down by the Gentiles so long, and for rearing a Temple in honor of Thy name."  Elder Hyde also states in his account that, as had been prophesied, he performed some rite with his rod on the Temple Mount itself (anyone know what he did?).*.  Roberts, ed., History of the Church, IV:456, online at http://www.nyx.net/~cgibbons/orson_hyde_prayer.html .

 

The Mormons represent themselves as part of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, the Jews the Southern Kingdom.  We need to accept the current bifurcation with good grace.  Just let God be true.  We are sure to find out how it all works out in the end.  This is the Latter Days.  It is happening now.

 

*  Brigham Young determined the proper location for the Salt Lake Temple by using Oliver Cowdery's rod, on July 28, 1847 (Wilford Woodruff was present).