Canadaigua Posted January 14, 2015 Author Posted January 14, 2015 This thread is unreal.From your perspective why do you think that this thread is unreal? From my perspective it is unreal because you have several LDS leaders telling us that animal sacrifice will be restored and LDS are going out of their way to try an deny this fact.
Mars Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) My perspective is you don't give two squirts about anything other than my saying "Dude you're totally right. Mormon prophets is cray-cray. I'm quittin' the Mormon Church, like right now." That's why this thread is unreal. Normally I'm interested in finding middle ground and understanding one another. Not in this thread. Threads get to run their own course, and by no means do you (or anyone) require my approval to talk about a certain subject, but if I were mod for a day, I'd close this one down as being utterly unproductive. I swear... If I ever throw in the towel with Mormons, American Evangelical Christianity is the last place I'm headed. Edited January 14, 2015 by Mars 2
mfbukowski Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Vance obviously hasn't keep up with the thread. He said "You have one, single, solitary, lonely source." But anyone who has followed along knows that what he said was not true--except Vance of course--which is why I posted the quotes again for him. Oh gosh, no no no. I can't believe it. What Vance said was exactly right. Calling white black a million times does not make it so. Absolutely ridiculous.
mfbukowski Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 So, you finally found a second mention of animal sacrifice which is a second hand, unofficial source at best. Plus you missed a very important point. What part of "[Floor plandrawings done during construction of the Salt Lake Temple do not indicate such a room.]. . ." Obviously, Brigham Young didn't feel strongly enough about the topic to move it beyond merely being "discussed", IF such discussion occurred at all. What an epic fail.Exactly It proves that it was never implemented. And why? Because it was not an inspired use of the temple. This actually proves that he is wrong and he cannot even see that. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 My perspective is you don't give two squirts about anything other than my saying "Dude you're totally right. Mormon prophets is cray-cray. I'm quittin' the Mormon Church, like right now." That's why this thread is unreal. Normally I'm interested in finding middle ground and understanding one another. Not in this thread. Threads get to run their own course, and by no means do you (or anyone) require my approval to talk about a certain subject, but if I were mod for a day, I'd close this one down as being utterly unproductive. I swear... If I ever throw in the towel with Mormons, American Evangelical Christianity is the last place I'm headed.Agreed. They have no basis. They accept half of Catholic theology- the trinity and Nicene Creed but have no theology of their own to back it up. They end up citing Aquinas on the Trinity. Uh, sorry, Aquinas was not an Evangelical. Then they throw out transubstantiation even though Aquinas preached it. Go figure. 2
Vance Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 President Joseph Fielding Smith's quoter IS from an official source. It is in an OFFICIAL LDS MANUAL. So I hope that you are not going to try and claim that an official LDS manual is an unofficial source.It is quoting an unofficial source, so it is not official doctrine. Get it? It is NOT official doctrine. Was President Joseph Fielding Smith wrong in what he said above?It was his opinion. We (all of us with half a brain) know that it isn't official doctrine. And your feeble attempts to make it so are laughable. If so why would the LDS church include it in an official manual?I already answered that question. For informational purposes. And that doesn't make it official doctrine. It is simply letting people know what JFS's opinion was on the matter. So, you are back to a single, lonely, solitary first hand opinion. And nothing more. 1
Vance Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 From my perspective it is unreal because you have several LDS leaders telling us that animal sacrifice will be restored and LDS are going out of their way to try an deny this fact.Back to your false narrative I see. Reminds me of Proverbs 26:11 and 2 Pet 2:22.
intra Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 show of hands: who has been instructed by a bishop or other human authority to lie to non-mormons about animal sacrifice?
Robert F. Smith Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 show of hands: who has been instructed by a bishop or other human authority to lie to non-mormons about animal sacrifice? That is a scurrilous and highly inappropriate comment, intra. Is that vengeance for all the inappropriate comments made about you on this board?Shall we all wallow in the mire? Or would you prefer rational, mutually respectful discourse?It is your call, but an apology is in order at least. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 President Joseph Fielding Smith's quoter IS from an official source. It is in an OFFICIAL LDS MANUAL. So I hope that you are not going to try and claim that an official LDS manual is an unofficial source. Now back to my questions. Was President Joseph Fielding Smith wrong in what he said above? If so why would the LDS church include it in an official manual?So-called "official manuals" are merely manuals published by the LDS Church in order to edify the membership. They carry no canonical authority and are frequently changed.Hugh Nibley wrote the official 1957 Melchizedek Priesthood Manual, and I considered it a great piece of work for its time. Hugh was a friend of mine, a great man, a genius no doubt, and we had some interesting conversations, but his manual is not infallible and inerrant. Nor are the Brethren. If you seek certainty, I recommend that you go to the Lord in prayer. Let the Holy Spirit guide you. If that is not good enough, I can recommend some churches which insist on inerrancy and infallibility . . . 2
mfbukowski Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 show of hands: who has been instructed by a bishop or other human authority to lie to non-mormons about animal sacrifice? Just unbelievable. If it was in my power I would throw you off the board for that. Ridiculous.
mfbukowski Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Intra has been banned from the thread. SkyllaThat's a start.
Canadaigua Posted January 15, 2015 Author Posted January 15, 2015 My perspective is you don't give two squirts about anything other than my saying "Dude you're totally right. Mormon prophets is cray-cray. I'm quittin' the Mormon Church, like right now." That's why this thread is unreal. I think there are lots of writings--especially from the early prophets--particularly Joseph Smith and Brigham Young that are clearly false teachings that modern LDS absolutely disagree with. That leaves LDS with a dilemma, admit that the early prophets who supposedly spoke with God taught false doctrine OR try to downplay the false teachings in some way such as "nobody is perfect" or the source of the material is questionable. The problem with the former is that it brings into question all of Joseph's other prophecies and whether or not he was really a true prophet of God.
Canadaigua Posted January 15, 2015 Author Posted January 15, 2015 Just unbelievable. If it was in my power I would throw you off the board for that. Ridiculous.You have to admit that this teaching is taught in a modern official LDS manual. If it was false like you say why on earth would it be included by the LDS church in one of its manuals?
Vance Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 I think there are lots of writings--especially from the early prophets--particularly Joseph Smith and Brigham Young that are clearly false teachings that modern LDS absolutely disagree with. That leaves LDS with a dilemma, admit that the early prophets who supposedly spoke with God taught false doctrine OR try to downplay the false teachings in some way such as "nobody is perfect" or the source of the material is questionable. The problem with the former is that it brings into question all of Joseph's other prophecies and whether or not he was really a true prophet of God.False dichotomy. There are other options. I could explain it to you, but you aren't interested in really understanding, so I won't waste my time.
Mars Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 I think there are lots of writings--especially from the early prophets--particularly Joseph Smith and Brigham Young that are clearly false teachings that modern LDS absolutely disagree with. That leaves LDS with a dilemma, admit that the early prophets who supposedly spoke with God taught false doctrine OR try to downplay the false teachings in some way such as "nobody is perfect" or the source of the material is questionable. The problem with the former is that it brings into question all of Joseph's other prophecies and whether or not he was really a true prophet of God. We read the same words. We know the history better. We understand the messages better. You are not the authority. You keep trying to show that you know better and you are getting - metaphorically speaking - smacked around with your shallow understanding of Mormon theology, belief, culture, and practice. You do not get to sail in with a few sliced and diced quotes, point out the inconsistency, and wait for us to leave - to do what, exactly? Follow you? Psh. It's fine that you see it as disagreement. It's fine that you are not compelled to believe Mormonism's take on God, the universe, and everything in between. What is not fine is that you have the arrogance to assume you can take such a stilted and shallow view and then foist it on us after dozens of pages (each thread you start goes pretty long) of Mormon responses trying to show you that you it's not the way you think it is. 4
Vance Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) You have to admit that this teaching is taught in a modern official LDS manual.You just can't give up your OBVIOUSLY false narrative, can you? It is not "taught" in that manual, it is simply quoted. No elaboration nor explanation nor clarification nor assent was added. The single, lone, quote was simply provided. If it was false like you say why on earth would it be included by the LDS church in one of its manuals?This was answered several days ago. Are you having trouble grasping the concept? Edited January 15, 2015 by Vance
mfbukowski Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 You have to admit that this teaching is taught in a modern official LDS manual. If it was false like you say why on earth would it be included by the LDS church in one of its manuals?Because we are not robot fundamentalists, as it appears you are. Why do you believe in the bible? You have not answered that. Why should we believe YOU?
thesometimesaint Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) I have no knowledge of what if any religion Canadaigua is or was. But atheists can and do make the same arguments as he is. Take a sentence from here or there and claim it represents what the other person believes. IE; The Bible clearly claims that the earth is flat. So every believer in the Bible(Old and/or New Testament) must believe the earth is flat. Edited January 15, 2015 by thesometimesaint
Canadaigua Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 False dichotomy. There are other options. I could explain it to you, but you aren't interested in really understanding, so I won't waste my time.You said "I could explain it to you, but you aren't interested in really understanding". I would love to hear how you could explain it. Your leaders have said that there will be animal sacrifice RESTORED at some point in the future. An official LDS manual teaches that animal sacrifice will be RESTORED using the quotes from LDS leaders. Yet nobody on this board seems to want to accept that this is a true teaching--including yourself. Could you explain it from your point of view?
Vance Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) You said "I could explain it to you, but you aren't interested in really understanding". I would love to hear how you could explain it.No, you really aren't interested. It it obvious because you haven't listened yet. Your leaders have said that there will be animal sacrifice RESTORED at some point in the future.See, you haven't been listening, but continue to put forth a falsehood. ONLY ONE leader has opined that animal sacrifice you be done again. SOOOO. It is NOT a teaching of the Church. It is NOT doctrine of the Church. The sooner you can get that through your head the sooner you will understand. But your really aren't interested in understanding. An official LDS manual teaches that animal sacrifice will be RESTORED using the quotes from LDS leaders.Another falsehood. The manual does NOT teach it, it simply provide the opinion of ONE person on the subject. Therefore, it is NOT a teaching of the Church nor is it doctrine of the Church. Yet nobody on this board seems to want to accept that this is a true teaching--including yourself.That should give you a clue that it is NOT a true teaching of the Church, NOR is it a doctrine of the Church. YOU are the ONLY ONE attempting to present it as such. That alone should be a clue to you. But alas, you do not want to understand because that would require you to give up your false narrative. Could you explain it from your point of view?Been there, done that. Several times. Edited January 16, 2015 by Vance
Tacenda Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 No, you really aren't interested. It it obvious because you haven't listened yet.See, you haven't been listening, but continue to put forth a falsehood. ONLY ONE leader has opined that animal sacrifice you be done again.SOOOO.It is NOT a teaching of the Church. It is NOT doctrine of the Church. The sooner you can get that through your head the sooner you will understand. But your really aren't interested in understanding. Another falsehood. The manual does NOT teach it, it simply provide the opinion of ONE person on the subject. Therefore, it is NOT a teaching of the Church nor is it doctrine of the Church.Been there, done that. Several times.I've been a member all my life and don't recall a lesson ever taught that animal sacrifice will be restored again, ever. But just like Pres. Uchtdorf has said, leaders get it wrong, not in those words but that was the gist if it. This argument/thread would go away if the LDS members would agree that it was taught in a few places, and that's why our church is open to new revelation and it can change because of it. Did you all forget...MF, Vance, Mars etc.? That's all you needed to say really. It's quite embarrassing that you denied it so much, it's all there in black and white, a church manual for goodness sakes.
Mars Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Tacenda... I never said a word on animal sacrifice. Let alone denied it. 1
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