Animal Sacrifice Restored

[teddyaware]

Again, two temples.

One Jewish, one LDS.

No conflict, no discussion.

 

How will the Jews who build this non-LDS Jerusalem temple be able to make an animal sacrifice in righteousness if they continue uo reject Jesus Christ as the Saviour? There are abundant verses throughout all the Standard Works (many of them in the Book of Mormon) that indicate the Jews of the latter-days will continue under the general curse (I mean this in a purely technical sense) that was pronounced upon them by the Saviour Himself (a curse that began in earnest when the second temple was totally torn down and Jerusalem destroyed) until they come unto Him. It's extremely hard to imagine any Levite descendants making a truly righteous and acceptable (by God) sacrifice unless the participants in the rite fully understand that the blood animal sacrifice they perform is symbolic of the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ.  

Edited January 8, 2015 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

The sacrifice in righteousness is done in the LDS temple,by us as proxies for the literal sons of Levi,we who hold the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood. Two temples. Some verses apply to us, some apply to them, just as prophets see the end times and the old destruction of Jerusalem at once,mixed together.

[CV75]

The sacrifice in righteousness is done in the LDS temple,by us as proxies for the literal sons of Levi,we who hold the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood. Two temples. Some verses apply to us, some apply to them, just as prophets see the end times and the old destruction of Jerusalem at once,mixed together.

I find it inconsistent that Elder Hyde would dedicate and consecrate the land for one temple that doesn’t perform sacrifices in righteousness and another that does.

[mfbukowski]

I find it inconsistent that Elder Hyde would dedicate and consecrate the land for one temple that doesn’t perform sacrifices in righteousness and another that does.

So you think that Elder Hyde, IF HE WAS RIGHT, has the power to cloud the agency of the Jewish people to build a temple if they like?

Or perhaps all the other prophecies about animal sacrifices being offered again in Jerusalem were wrong? Elder Hyde dedicated the land for our temple- to offer sacrifices- now performed symbolically- "in righteousness" and that will happen, perhaps even in the present Jerusalem center which could be dedicated (or a portion of it) as an LDS temple. The Manhattan NY temple exists in a building used for other purposes as well, including a chapel, and we know that temples do not have to be very large.

On the other hand the Jewish people could build their own temple- as some are now planning- and perform the sacrifices.

To fulfill the prophecies two things have to happen: 1- Sacrifices offered in righteousness- which phrase is clearly applied to what happens in LDS temples today- so we need an LDS temple over there.

2- The Jews who are literal descendants of Levi (ie: Cohens) have to offer animal sacrifices- which is already in the works.

The two events do not have to be performed by the same people in the same place at the same time.

This is not complicated. AND Robert and I have been saying this now for the whole bloomin thread as I understand Robert.

It is prideful on our part to think that only LDS are "God's covenant people" when clearly the blessings of Ephraim are on Ephraim, and Ephraim was not LDS. Hate to break it to you.

Further, we had nothing to do with the creation of the modern nation of Israel, one of the signature events of the latter days. WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

What gives us the right to think we will have to sacrifice cattle to fulfill the prophecy?? It's just pride to think so. As long as it happens- cattle get slaughtered, AND there is an "offering in righteousness" both prophecies are fulfilled.

Edited January 8, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

All I am saying is that these are possibilities.

We have no idea how God will see fit to work his plan- and speculation is worthless, including this speculation.

The entire point is that we need not worry about how it will happen. It WILL happen- that's all that matters.

I just hate it when we think we have the answers for everything when in fact we don't have bupkis.

(That's a theological technical term that you need not look up, and if anyone wants to debate it, I will yield to their better understanding of bupkis)

Edited January 8, 2015 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

So you think that Elder Hyde, IF HE WAS RIGHT, has the power to cloud the agency of the Jewish people to build a temple if they like?

Of course not—anyone can do whatever he pleases outside of Elder Hyde's dedication and consecration.

 

Or perhaps all the other prophecies about animal sacrifices being offered again in Jerusalem were wrong? Elder Hyde dedicated the land for our temple- to offer sacrifices- now performed symbolically- "in righteousness" and that will happen, perhaps even in the present Jerusalem center which could be dedicated (or a portion of it) as an LDS temple. The Manhattan NY temple exists in a building used for other purposes as well, including a chapel, and we know that temples do not have to be very large.

And I haven’t an issue about whether animal sacrifices will be offered, authorized by the LDS Church or not. I can envision how they might be, and it is not unreasonable, based on https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-10-to-20/section-13-the-restoration-of-the-aaronic-priesthood?lang=eng , to consider it.

 

To fulfill the prophecies two things have to happen: 1- Sacrifices offered in righteousness- which phrase is clearly applied to what happens in LDS temples today- so we need an LDS temple over there.

2- The Jews who are literal descendants of Levi (ie: Cohens) have to offer animal sacrifices- which is already in the works.

To me, it is perfectly possible that the prophecies can additionally be fulfilled by animal sacrifices offered in righteousness (and not under the Law of Moses) by converted (I didn't say "perfected"!) Jews who are literal descendants of Levi in an LDS temple of some future design. If we can become “them,” they can become “us”. It is one kingdom.

 

This is not complicated. AND Robert and I have been saying this now for the whole bloomin thread as I understand Robert.

Frustration makes it difficult to communicate and discuss ideas, especially when it fuels charges of pride as the basis of other considerations and points of view. It is unfortunate that entertaining speculation (giving the benefit of of a doubt, in a good way) of the details in the process of understanding the fulfillment of a common point of faith is cause for vexation.

 

It is prideful on our part to think that only LDS are "God's covenant people" when clearly the blessings of Ephraim are on Ephraim, and Ephraim was not LDS. Hate to break it to you.

Further, we had nothing to do with the creation of the modern nation of Israel, one of the signature events of the latter days. WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

What gives us the right to think we will have to sacrifice cattle to fulfill the prophecy?? It's just pride to think so. As long as it happens- cattle get slaughtered, AND there is an "offering in righteousness" both prophecies are fulfilled.

I never suggested the LDS are the only covenant people. The Book of Mormon makes that perfectly clear. But it also makes clear that there is only one kingdom under which the remnants will be restored and gathered, and that kingdom of God on earth is the LDS Church. The D&C scriptures attest to the fulfillment of that.

 

I agree that the LDS Church (“we?”) has nothing to do with the creation and development of the modern nation of Israel, just as it has nothing to do with the immigration of other remnants of Jacob into the United States (from Columbus onward let's say). The gentiles also, for that matter. I understand these movements to be examples of God’s personal work through His children irrespective of what is done through His restored kingdom on earth, the Church.

 

I think there are countless divinely-inspired longings and passions everyone acts on—love, freedom, familial (and broader) identity and connection, exploration, the spirit of Elijah, the Light of Christ, etc.; these are just some of the forces bringing about the gathering of the Jews in Israel and the melting pot in America. While these drives are divine, the implementation and practice of them are as imperfect and anyone can imagine (D&C 123:12). That is why there are prophecies about the g/Gentiles just as there are about the remnants of Jacob in the Book of Mormon, and I view them as a “covenant” of sorts with the g/Gentiles. Yet the Lord will show grace in the long run in the fulfillment of the end of these prophecies through the mechanism of restoring and directing the use of His keys through His authorized servants in the Restored Church.

[mfbukowski]

Of course not—anyone can do whatever he pleases outside of Elder Hyde's dedication and consecration.

 

And I haven’t an issue about whether animal sacrifices will be offered, authorized by the LDS Church or not. I can envision how they might be, and it is not unreasonable, based on https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-10-to-20/section-13-the-restoration-of-the-aaronic-priesthood?lang=eng , to consider it.

 

To me, it is perfectly possible that the prophecies can additionally be fulfilled by animal sacrifices offered in righteousness (and not under the Law of Moses) by converted (I didn't say "perfected"!) Jews who are literal descendants of Levi in an LDS temple of some future design. If we can become “them,” they can become “us”. It is one kingdom.

 

Frustration makes it difficult to communicate and discuss ideas, especially when it fuels charges of pride as the basis of other considerations and points of view. It is unfortunate that entertaining speculation (giving the benefit of of a doubt, in a good way) of the details in the process of understanding the fulfillment of a common point of faith is cause for vexation.

 

I never suggested the LDS are the only covenant people. The Book of Mormon makes that perfectly clear. But it also makes clear that there is only one kingdom under which the remnants will be restored and gathered, and that kingdom of God on earth is the LDS Church. The D&C scriptures attest to the fulfillment of that.

 

I agree that the LDS Church (“we?”) has nothing to do with the creation and development of the modern nation of Israel, just as it has nothing to do with the immigration of other remnants of Jacob into the United States (from Columbus onward let's say). The gentiles also, for that matter. I understand these movements to be examples of God’s personal work through His children irrespective of what is done through His restored kingdom on earth, the Church.

 

I think there are countless divinely-inspired longings and passions everyone acts on—love, freedom, familial (and broader) identity and connection, exploration, the spirit of Elijah, the Light of Christ, etc.; these are just some of the forces bringing about the gathering of the Jews in Israel and the melting pot in America. While these drives are divine, the implementation and practice of them are as imperfect and anyone can imagine (D&C 123:12). That is why there are prophecies about the g/Gentiles just as there are about the remnants of Jacob in the Book of Mormon, and I view them as a “covenant” of sorts with the g/Gentiles. Yet the Lord will show grace in the long run in the fulfillment of the end of these prophecies through the mechanism of restoring and directing the use of His keys through His authorized servants in the Restored Church.

Yep.

See post 205

[CV75]

Yep.

See post 205

Oh... have a great weekend!

[Canadaigua]

The sacrifice in righteousness is done in the LDS temple,by us as proxies for the literal sons of Levi,we who hold the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood. Two temples. Some verses apply to us, some apply to them, just as prophets see the end times and the old destruction of Jerusalem at once,mixed together.

But the sacrifices spoken about are animal sacrifices--not"sacrifice in righteousness".

[mfbukowski]

But the sacrifices spoken about are animal sacrifices--not"sacrifice in righteousness".

Sorry, yet again you did not understand and I am tired of repeating it.  I cannot help you.

[Canadaigua]

Sorry, yet again you did not understand and I am tired of repeating it.  I cannot help you.

You seem to want and change what your leaders have said--perhaps you should just accept it as being the truth OR simply say that what they said was false.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Canadaigua

[Canadaigua]

Canadaigua

If you really think about your position you know that it can't possibly be right because it would mean that two contradictory beliefs are both true.  Perhaps we can test it out.

 

You believe that Mormonism is true because of your personal testimony

I believe that Mormonism is false because of my personal testimony

 

 

BTW the following statements from your last post I think best describes your position on truth--that it is relative to the observer.

"We acknowledge that "official manuals" may be wrong.  Prophets may be wrong."

"No, I am not "wrong"."

 

 

Mfbukowski

Yep. And...?

Relativism--Wikipedia

"Relativism is the concept that points of view have no absolute truth or validity, having only relative, subjective value according to differences in perception and consideration. . ."

 

What are you doing is slipping down to path of relativism, which seems to be fairly common among Mormons these days.  There is no absolute truth rather truth is in the eye of the beholder.  But this seems to be an odd position for a Mormon to hold since the truth claims of Mormonism are that they have restored to truth to the world and that they are the one truth church on the face of the earth.

[mfbukowski]

Relativism--Wikipedia

"Relativism is the concept that points of view have no absolute truth or validity, having only relative, subjective value according to differences in perception and consideration. . ."

 

What are you doing is slipping down to path of relativism, which seems to be fairly common among Mormons these days.  There is no absolute truth rather truth is in the eye of the beholder.  But this seems to be an odd position for a Mormon to hold since the truth claims of Mormonism are that they have restored to truth to the world and that they are the one truth church on the face of the earth.

There are many definitions for the word truth.

 

Ours is found in Alma 32.  I will let you have the practice in looking it up for yourself.

 

Creedal Christians derive their definition of truth from Platonic Greek, (pagan) philosophy but don't seem to ever be aware of that.

 

What theory of truth do you subscribe to?  http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth/

[Vance]

You seem to want and change what your leaders have said--perhaps you should just accept it as being the truth OR simply say that what they said was false.

As far as I recall seeing, you have only shown one leader (not leaders) that has mentioned animal sacrifice.  Everything else you have shown is just that quote being repeated.  So, this is a stretch.

 

Do you not know that;

Matt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

 

So, other than that single source that everything you have referenced goes to, where is that second and/or third witness that is required for something to even have a chance of being doctrine?

Edited January 10, 2015 by Vance

[Robert F. Smith]

But the sacrifices spoken about are animal sacrifices--not"sacrifice in righteousness".

I don't understand why you think the two are incompatible.  Why can't the sons of Levi offer a blood sacrificial offering in righteousness before the Day of the Lord arrives?  The notion that no more animal sacrifices can be offered is not something that the Jews believe, and I doubt that they are interested in the opinions of some goyim somewhere.  You need to take a parallactic view, Canadaigua.

[Robert F. Smith]

To fulfill the prophecies two things have to happen: 1- Sacrifices offered in righteousness- which phrase is clearly applied to what happens in LDS temples today- so we need an LDS temple over there.

2- The Jews who are literal descendants of Levi (ie: Cohens) have to offer animal sacrifices- which is already in the works.

 

Of course not—anyone can do whatever he pleases outside of Elder Hyde's dedication and consecration.

 

And I haven’t an issue about whether animal sacrifices will be offered, authorized by the LDS Church or not. I can envision how they might be, and it is not unreasonable, based on https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-10-to-20/section-13-the-restoration-of-the-aaronic-priesthood?lang=eng , to consider it.

 

To me, it is perfectly possible that the prophecies can additionally be fulfilled by animal sacrifices offered in righteousness (and not under the Law of Moses) by converted (I didn't say "perfected"!) Jews who are literal descendants of Levi in an LDS temple of some future design. If we can become “them,” they can become “us”. It is one kingdom.

 

.....................................................................  

 Yet the Lord will show grace in the long run in the fulfillment of the end of these prophecies through the mechanism of restoring and directing the use of His keys through His authorized servants in the Restored Church.

The Jews already have their separate authority to gather and to build the temple, from Orson Hyde's dedication to both objectives.  The Jews are not under the aegis of the LDS Church, and would certainly not allow the Mormons to control their religious actions.  Indeed, they do not officially recognize the right of the LDS Church to operate independently in Israel.  We were allowed to build a BYU center there only with their permission, and they would certainly not allow us to build a temple there.

 

Whether and under what conditions God will allow the sons of Levi to offer an offering in righteousness is between God and His covenant people in Israel.  The Prophet Zechariah and the D&C both make it clear that the Jews will be surprised when the Messiah comes again when they are gathered at the Mount of Olives and see Him come down from the heaven, and they will look at the wounds in his hands and ask where He got them:  He will tell them that He got them in the house of his friends, and they will comprehend who crucified him, and every knee will bow to Him then.  It will not be a Mormon moment.  It will be a Jewish moment.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[ERayR]

The Jews already have their separate authority to gather and to build the temple, from Orson Hyde's dedication to both objectives.  The Jews are not under the aegis of the LDS Church, and would certainly not allow the Mormons to control their religious actions.  Indeed, they do not officially recognize the right of the LDS Church to operate independently in Israel.  We were allowed to build a BYU center there only with their permission, and they would certainly not allow us to build a temple there.

 

Whether and under what conditions God will allow the sons of Levi to offer an offering in righteousness is between God and His covenant people in Israel.  The Prophet Zechariah and the D&C both make it clear that the Jews will be surprised when the Messiah comes again when they are gathered at the Mount of Olives and see Him come down from the heaven, and they will look at the wounds in his hands and ask where He got them:  He will tell them that He got them in the house of his friends, and they will comprehend who crucified him, and every knee will bow to Him then.  It will not be a Mormon moment.  It will be a Jewish moment.

 

I have wondered just who of all the Jewish people which of them will be gathered at the Mount of Olives?  I think it is not feasible that the entire population of Israel to be there.

[Canadaigua]

I don't understand why you think the two are incompatible.  Why can't the sons of Levi offer a blood sacrificial offering in righteousness before the Day of the Lord arrives?  The notion that no more animal sacrifices can be offered is not something that the Jews believe, and I doubt that they are interested in the opinions of some goyim somewhere.  You need to take a parallactic view, Canadaigua.

My statement was in response to the post below by mfbukowski

mfbukowski (post 202)

"The sacrifice in righteousness is done in the LDS temple,by us as proxies for the literal sons of Levi,we who hold the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood."

 

 

I think that is exactly what your prophets have said that they are compatible and that animal sacrifices with occur again within the LDS church. But it doesn't appear that mfbukowski believes that will ever happen--he disbelieves what his own prophets have said.  BTW many Christians--myself included--believe that the Jews will rebuilt the Jewish temple and resume animal sacrifices.  The Jews have everything ready to go to resume these sacrifices--the only thing lacking is the rebuilt temple.  But the Jews at this point still reject Christ.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Canadaigua

[Vance]

I think that is exactly what your prophets have said that they are compatible and that animal sacrifices with occur again within the LDS church.

You just can't yourself from putting forth falsehood as fact.

 

it is not true that our "prophets have said" "that animal sacrifices with occur again within the LDS church."

 

You just can't give up your false narrative, can you.

[mfbukowski]

I have wondered just who of all the Jewish people which of them will be gathered at the Mount of Olives?  I think it is not feasible that the entire population of Israel to be there.

TV and the internet??

[mfbukowski]

You just can't yourself from putting forth falsehood as fact.

 

it is not true that our "prophets have said" "that animal sacrifices with occur again within the LDS church."

 

You just can't give up your false narrative, can you.

Exactly.

[Canadaigua]

You just can't yourself from putting forth falsehood as fact.

 

it is not true that our "prophets have said" "that animal sacrifices with occur again within the LDS church."

 

You just can't give up your false narrative, can you.

Sure it is true and I have given you the quote--perhaps you should read it again if you haven't already.

[mfbukowski]

Sure it is true and I have given you the quote--perhaps you should read it again if you haven't already.

Facepalm.

[Vance]

Sure it is true and I have given you the quote--perhaps you should read it again if you haven't already.

Even here you admit that it is a false narrative.  You have one, single, solitary, lonely source and you falsely ascribe it to our "prophets have said".  And even though that one, single, solitary, lonely source provides no detail on the how or when, you falsely ascribe that it "with [sIC] occur again within the LDS church."

 

So, like I said, you just can't give up the OBVIOUSLY false narrative you have fabricated.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Vance

[Robert F. Smith]

I have wondered just who of all the Jewish people which of them will be gathered at the Mount of Olives?  I think it is not feasible that the entire population of Israel to be there.

True, but at that apocalyptic moment, the Jewish leaders may be there, just as they were on the fateful day when the Israeli Army took the Old City of Jerusalem on June 7, 1967.  The Israeli Army attacked from Mt Olivet and marched in through the eastern gate of the City, photos showing the Minister of Defense (Moshe Dayan), the Army Chief (Yitzhaq Rabin), and the Jerusalem Commander (Uzi Narkis) coming through the Lion's Gate together in full battle dress.  See here: http://www.israelidecorations.net/Other/SixDayWarCommemorativeMedals.htm .