4 Questions Currently On My Mind

[DBMormon]

It is always easier to look at things dispassionately from a distance when we are not involved.  The trust you speak of that was destroyed, was it somehow naive?  Also personal choice, how you choose ro respond and what you choose to believe and do played/play a big role in your attitude.  Just hang in there and work on it.  

Erayr, again thank you.  I often feel we butt heads but really felt your genuineness tonight.  I mean that as a compliment.  I feel like we might be on a different track.  Thanks again and have a great day.  It was naive, but it was as advanced and as informed as anyone in my ward.  It is like being the fastest kid in a group of slow kids.  You think your onto something but in reality your behind the curve.  My ward in many ways set me up for a giant fall.  They were a very rigid dogmatic ward and had many ideas wrong.

Edited September 5, 2014 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

Thank you for this, although I wish someone other than Orson Hyde had said it.

I've been in a situation for several years now that many members wouldn't feel right about which I still think is okay for the time being. I got into debt being stupid with credit cards, even getting equity loans a few times to pay off the max 20k limit balance each time, and for the last year or so I haven't paid tithes so that I can pay off the credit card and equity loans quicker. It would take me a lot, lot longer to pay off the debt while paying a tithe and I would also be paying a lot, lot more interest that way, so I feel this is the best way to get out of this mess that my stupidity got me and my wife into. The best way, I say, although I would much rather be able to comfortably pay tithes.

ETA: We shredded the credit cards soon after we stopped paying tithes.

your welcome.  You also have the JST of Genesis 14:39

Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

[DBMormon]

your welcome.  You also have the JST of Genesis 14:39

Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

Also you have D&C 119:5

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

[DBMormon]

Also you have D&C 119:5

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

You also have Elder Talmadge

 

"You have need of many things in this world-food, clothing, and shelter for your family AND YOURSELF, the common comforts of life, AND THE THINGS THAT SHALL BE CONDUCIVE TO REFINEMENT, TO DEVELOPMENT, TO RIGHTEOUS ENJOYMENT. YOU DESIRE MATERIAL POSSESSIONS TO USE FOR THE ASSISTANCE OF OTHERS AND THEREBY GAIN GREATER BLESSINGS FOR YOURSELF AND YOURS. Now, you shall have the means of acquiring these things; but remember they are mine, and I require of you the payment of a rental upon that which I give into your hands. However, your life will not be one of uniform increase IN SUBSTANCE AND POSSESSIONS; YOU WILL HAVE YOUR LOSSES, AS WELL AS YOUR GAIN; YOU WILL HAVE YOUR PERIODS OF TROUBLE AS WELL AS YOUR TIMES OF PEACE. SOME YEARS WILL BE YEARS OF PLENTY UNTO YOU, AND OTHERS WILL BE YEARS OF SCARCITY.  AND, NOW, instead of doing as mortal landlords do-require you to CONTRACT WITH THEM to pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or your prospects may be-you shall pay me NOT IN ADVANCE, BUT when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then YOU CAN AFFORD TO PAY ME a little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then YOU SHALL PAY ME LESS; AND SHOULD IT BE THAT YOU ARE REDUCED TO THE UTMOST PENURY SO THAT YOU HAVE NOTHING COMING IN, YOU WILL PAY ME NOTHING."

 

This one can be taken all three ways and proves nothing but find it interesting in its wording.  I also find "Not in Advance" interesting as only "NOT" paying in advance makes sense in light of surplus.  You can not know your surplus in advance especially when combined with "paid annually"

 

EDITED TO ADD:  Let me be clear, I am only showing room for Surplus as a genuine interpretation of the Doctrine and of Scripture.  I am not making the case that it is the only interpretation, only that it is a valid one.  The decision is between the member and the LORD and I respect each person's decison and personal revelation

 

Edited September 6, 2014 by DBMormon

[ERayR]

Erayr, again thank you.  I often feel we butt heads but really felt your genuineness tonight.  I mean that as a compliment.  I feel like we might be on a different track.  Thanks again and have a great day.  It was naive, but it was as advanced and as informed as anyone in my ward.  It is like being the fastest kid in a group of slow kids.  You think your onto something but in reality your behind the curve.  My ward in many ways set me up for a giant fall.  They were a very rigid dogmatic ward and had many ideas wrong.

 

I know that ward.  I have attended a couple of them.  The problem is when all is said and done it is not going to matter what that ward was or did but rather what you chose to do with it.  As I said I have been there and done that and had to choose where I was going from there.

[DBMormon]

I know that ward.  I have attended a couple of them.  The problem is when all is said and done it is not going to matter what that ward was or did but rather what you chose to do with it.  As I said I have been there and done that and had to choose where I was going from there.

I have moved forward.  I am better now than 6 months ago better then than I was a year ago.  And better then, than 3 years ago.  I am always getting better though there is a ebb and flow and one back and two forward.

[ERayR]

I have moved forward.  I am better now than 6 months ago better then than I was a year ago.  And better then, than 3 years ago.  I am always getting better though there is a ebb and flow and one back and two forward.

 

Good.  God bless you brother.  Just keep your eye on the ultimate goal.

[Rivers]

1. This had been answered by the church regarding the whole Kate Kelly fiasco. We are entitled to our own opinions but we shouldn't be actively trying to bring others to our point of view if it goes against church policy or doctrine.

2. This is answered in mormonsandgays.org

3. The Gospel Principles manual simply says to pay on your increase. It doesn't give any more specifics. I pointed this out in a Gospel Principles class and it was well received. Personally it makes the most sense for me to pay on the money I directly receive.

4. Yes this is annoying. But it is based on something in scripture. The interpretation may be wrong but church members viewed it this way for about a century. I'll cut Elder Bednar some slack on this one.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Rivers

[Brian 2.0]

On tithing... I've always felt that the net vs gross question was up to me and The Lord and either is fine. I never got the impression that the surplus method was on the table though.

Whenever net vs gross was breached in Sunday school or anything it was never "net vs gross vs surplus" and it's between you and The Lord on those three.

Maybe it's me, but I get the impression that the surplus method is very non-kosher in today's church. And the only ones doing it are the very well read and researched as to how the law had been implemented in the past, and they are not vocal at all in church meetings that the surplus option is out there.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[DBMormon]

On tithing... I've always felt that the net vs gross question was up to me and The Lord and either is fine. I never got the impression that the surplus method was on the table though.

Whenever net vs gross was breached in Sunday school or anything it was never "net vs gross vs surplus" and it's between you and The Lord on those three.

Maybe it's me, but I get the impression that the surplus method is very non-kosher in today's church. And the only ones doing it are the very well read and researched as to how the law had been implemented in the past, and they are not vocal at all in church meetings that the surplus option is out there.

Well, I am telling you, it's out there brother

[DBMormon]

Good.  God bless you brother.  Just keep your eye on the ultimate goal.

thank you!  I am and will

[Brian 2.0]

Well, I am telling you, it's out there brother

I've found it plentiful out here on the boards, blogs, and podcasts... But is it in the pews? In Sunday school class?

[Tacenda]

I know that ward. I have attended a couple of them. The problem is when all is said and done it is not going to matter what that ward was or did but rather what you chose to do with it. As I said I have been there and done that and had to choose where I was going from there.

I wish we were all in a ward together on this board, for just one day. Wait that's another thread!

[DBMormon]

I've found it plentiful out here on the boards, blogs, and podcasts... But is it in the pews? In Sunday school class?

That's my point... If people are unaware that surplus is an option on the table, then of course in the pews there will be no view on surplus.  I am simply asking why we don't empower members to know that the decision is theirs and they have options and they ought to seek revelation on the matter..... rather than simply assume there is one true and living definition of tithing.

Edited September 6, 2014 by DBMormon

[CV75]

I am simply asking why we don't empower members to know that the decision is theirs and they have options and they ought to seek revelation on the matter

But we do!

[Tacenda]

But we do!

CFR of a teaching in the last century please.

[Grudunza]

#4 - forget the april 6th issue. Let me ask it this way. Why at times does the Church choose to defend a false assumption rather than acknowledge it may have misspoke after the fact?

Because, as someone else intimated, it creates a problem for the church if they have to correct it, when there is an increasing list of entrenched supporters. It's not just correcting Elder Bednar, but also the many before him.

A bigger and more egregious example of that kind of thing, IMO, is the idea that BY was transfigured into JS at the succession meeting... There is no evidence or indication of that happening from the dozens of sources reporting on that day immediately thereafter, and the first reference came 13 years later and probably grew and morphed from there like a "telephone game" thing ("BY reminded me of JS that day" becomes "BY turned into JS"), but it is now not only pervasive in our cultural history, but still referenced in many of our official manuals. At this point, though, to correct that error not only requires many manual changes but also could cast doubt on BY's "divine appointment" (which it needn't do, of course). But if I have any distasteful opinion of our church (which I love and fully support, otherwise), it's when things like that are done which would seem to prefer perpetuating falsehoods for the sake of faith promotion, as opposed to correcting them, or at least discontinuing them. It is very Orwellian, and reminds me of another example (a certain conference talk from 1984).

Not only is a surplus (after expenses) tithing method one of the three valid options, it is in my personal feeling the only truly fair option that accounts for all different family circumstances (e.g., a family with six children and greater expenses does not deserve further financial burden by paying the same amount of tithing as a family with no kids and the same net income). I believe my God to be fair and just... paying on gross or even net (before expenses) does not comport with a fair and uniform ideal. Tithing before expenses also creates windows for debt (e.g., a person's take-home income is $2,000/month and legitimate living expenses are $1,900), which creates a conundrum with the church so strongly advising against debt and for personal responsibility. If that person pays $10 of tithing instead of $200, all is right and there is no debt. Where the scriptures say we should be especially generous in a personal way is in charitable giving. Even then, as King Benjamin says, if we do not have anything to give, then we are "guiltless" if we would have given.

Btw, I agree with those who say that it's fine for us to have whatever opinions on issues as long as we aren't promoting them widely or with a sense of demanding change, but I am particularly grateful for forums like this where we can come and hash out these kinds of thoughts and ideas. Gospel Doctrine and Priesthood/RS don't usually seem like the right place/time to do so, but I think it is an important function and outlet to have.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

That's my point... If people are unaware that surplus is an option on the table, then of course in the pews there will be no view on surplus.  I am simply asking why we don't empower members to know that the decision is theirs and they have options and they ought to seek revelation on the matter..... rather than simply assume there is one true and living definition of tithing.

The problem is the average member doesn't study, so they don't really know what the D&C says concerning tithing, consecration, etc... can't blame the leaders for that, really.

It is the responsibility of the members to be like the Bareans and study everyday to "know whether these things are so".

[ERayR]

That's my point... If people are unaware that surplus is an option on the table, then of course in the pews there will be no view on surplus.  I am simply asking why we don't empower members to know that the decision is theirs and they have options and they ought to seek revelation on the matter..... rather than simply assume there is one true and living definition of tithing.

 

In thinking about this it seems to me if you are going to use the surplus method then instead of a tithe you are required to give all your surplus every year.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

In thinking about this it seems to me if you are going to use the surplus method then instead of a tithe you are required to give all your surplus every year.

 

That is if you consecrate. The tithe is a 10th of your yearly increase/surplus. But there is no reason one couldn't consecrate of their own accord, just give all your increase/surplus to the Bishop. Don't know if they would see it as consecration, though.

[Rain]

Ok, being lazy this morning. Has anything coming from the church said, "net" or "gross" in the last 25 years or so? Or is this wording all from general members? Because if they aren't mentioned I can see a reason surplus isn't mentioned either.

I can see some reasons why the words haven't been used.

1. Other things said in the talk may be felt to be of more importance than discussing the different ways, especially when we say it is between us and and the Lord and there may be limited time.

2. Some may hold fast to a particular method mentioned when they should be paying something else - someone wants to be obedient so without going to the Lord latches onto paying gross when he should be paying surplus or someone who has a money weakness latched onto net when he should be paying gross.

3. There are so many different situations. Some may not fit under any of the 3 exactly. Where do we limit it?

4. Some languages, customs and countries may not have the language and understanding to be able to translate the 3 words and mean the same thing.

So rather than give the 3 options the Lord/church gives most basic and we take it to the Lord being willing to pay more or less according to his will.

[DBMormon]

In thinking about this it seems to me if you are going to use the surplus method then instead of a tithe you are required to give all your surplus every year.

10% of my surplus is my tithe.  Again, It is a viable option in interpreting 10% of my increase(income) annually.  I am comfortable with my answer between me and God and yet you seem not to be.

[rodheadlee]

Re #2: Do we really need a GA to tell us not to shun people regardless of the reason? This is my pet peeve as my brother has been shunned his whole life living on the Mormon front.

[ERayR]

10% of my surplus is my tithe.  Again, It is a viable option in interpreting 10% of my increase(income) annually.  I am comfortable with my answer between me and God and yet you seem not to be.

 

It is not for me to be comfortable or uncomfortable with the way others live or perceive things but only their effects.  As for your tithing choices no problem as long as you don't start teaching it as doctrine.  I was just a bit bemused in your mingling of consecration and tithe.  It just seemed to me that if you are going to use the consecration model you would then consecrate and not tithe.  The two are not the same. 

 

Carry on.

Edited September 6, 2014 by ERayR

[Glenn101]

   On the issue of tithing. It became a non-issue for me when I decided to become a full tithe payer instead of doing the hit or miss method that I had used for so very long. I decided to pay on my gross income. It was a personal decision and have tried to follow it faithfully for the duration. I don't worry about it any longer, i.e what it means by "increase". It is only a small test after all, and the Lord has promised us some great blessings if we are faithful in paying our tithing. I think that if a person can honestly answer "yes" to the full tithe question, after clearing it with the Lord in humble prayer,  all of the other issues will be moot. If a person has been assured by the Lord that their tithe is accepted, then who am I to try to dissuade him or her that my way is correct? It all goes back to the spirit of the law. We are not living the Mosaic law of exactitude in everything.

 

On the dissent question, there is no clear cut answer about the lines. There is none drawn in the sand. But I still think that a person can get a lot more done by fervent prayer than with fervent dissent.

 

On the LGBT issue. The lines have been drawn in the sand for many years as to acceptable moral behavior. I emphasize the word behavior. Because how we treat others can be moral or immoral behavior.

 

As far as the birth date of the Christ, it is irrelevant to my salvation, a non-issue. It may well have been a revelation. Or not. It does not matter.

 

Glenn