4 Questions Currently On My Mind

[DBMormon]

Sounds like you answered 3 yourself.

What does it mean to pay tithing on surplus? You mean after you pay all your necessities you give a tenth of what's left to the Church or that you give all your extra to the Church?

it doesn't answer 3.  My question is not if I can pay on surplus but rather why don't we teach outwardly in public that members have a choice and it is between them and the Lord.

I pay 10% of my surplus

[ERayR]

If they won't correct the irrelevant when it would be easy, and it took forever to correct the serious (race theories and perhaps the ban itself) how can we be sure they will be willing to acknowledge truth and error on everything in between?  thank you for your response by the way.

 

I guess I just do not look for the Church leaders nor the Church organization to be infallible nor perfect and as long as they are headed in the right direction and leading me that way I believe we will make it some day and these things just lose their importance.

[Scott Lloyd]

it doesn't answer 3.  My question is not if I can pay on surplus but rather why don't we teach outwardly in public that members have a choice and it is between them and the Lord.

I pay 10% of my surplus

I, like stemelbow, wonder what you mean by pay tithing on the surplus.

 

If I did that, I would scarcely pay any tithing at all, as I rarely have surplus. Even when I try to save, it eventually gets eaten up by emergencies that come along.

 

I'm wondering if, instead of "pay tithing on the surplus," you mean pay tithing on the net income, or what is left over after taxes are taken out.

 

The definition given by the First Presidency and cited in the Sunday School Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Teachers Manual does not say "surplus":

 

The First Presidency gave the following definition of tithing: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970).

 

Edited September 5, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

 

VideoGameJunkie, on 05 Sept 2014 - 3:17 PM, said:

 

I pay tithing on Surplus.

 

I pay tithing and fast offerings.  It is between God and me what method I use as long as I can tell my bishop I pay a full and honest tithe.

 

Edited to add: Like the others above I wonder what you mean by surplus.  I am living off social security and have no "surplus" but I do have income.

Edited September 5, 2014 by ERayR

[VideoGameJunkie]

I agree with ERay, it's all about being honest with ourselves.

[stemelbow]

nevermind. wasn't comfortable with what I said after all.

Edited September 5, 2014 by stemelbow

[Scott Lloyd]

I pay tithing and fast offerings.  It is between God and me what method I use as long as I can tell my bishop I pay a full and honest tithe.

 

Edited to add: Like the others above I wonder what you mean by surplus.  I am living off social security and have no "surplus" but I do have income.

Even the money I have currently in savings I don't consider surplus, as all of it and more will eventually go toward paying for children's higher education and missions.

 

"Paying on the surplus" is simply not a workable definition for tithing. It sounds more like a rationalization for not paying anything.

[Scott Lloyd]

nevermind. wasn't comfortable with what I said after all.

I wish you hadn't deleted it. It made a lot of sense.

 

I even gave you a rep point for it.

[Paddy]

My issue with

#1 is how much room to I have to dissent without no longer being in the fold. The line is what I look for.

#2 My issue is why don't leaders say formally "no one should kick out their child becuase they are gay", "no one should shun their child because they are gay" ?

#3 my issue is why don't leaders help members better realize the choice is theirs and they have more than one option to consider and revealtion is available to them rather than being commended in all things.

#4 - forget the april 6th issue. Let me ask it this way. Why at times does the Church choose to defend a false assumption rather than acknowledge it may have misspoke after the fact?

The common thread seems to be that there is way to much investment in the authority of the church leadership. Maybe this is because the closer you are to the "centre" of church leadership the more the influence. I think there are great blessings associated with being geographically close but there are some cultural pecularities that come with it. It may be easier said then done, but don't let the church hold so much weight in your spiritual development. Finding the balance though can be hard.

[DBMormon]

I guess I just do not look for the Church leaders nor the Church organization to be infallible nor perfect and as long as they are headed in the right direction and leading me that way I believe we will make it some day and these things just lose their importance.

I dont expect perfection either, But I do expect when they realize they erred or that the Church collectively realizes it erred that it would frankly acknowledge such and not defend a bad position to save face 

[DBMormon]

I, like stemelbow, wonder what you mean by pay tithing on the surplus.

 

If I did that, I would scarcely pay any tithing at all, as I rarely have surplus. Even when I try to save, it eventually gets eaten up by emergencies that come along.

 

I'm wondering if, instead of "pay tithing on the surplus," you mean pay tithing on the net income, or what is left over after taxes are taken out.

 

The definition given by the First Presidency and cited in the Sunday School Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Teachers Manual does not say "surplus":

No, What I am saying is that I now pay for food, modest housing, modest transportation, along with modest clothes, utilities, fuel, etc... and then I pay 10% of what is left after that.  I meant what I said

[DBMormon]

I, like stemelbow, wonder what you mean by pay tithing on the surplus.

 

If I did that, I would scarcely pay any tithing at all, as I rarely have surplus. Even when I try to save, it eventually gets eaten up by emergencies that come along.

 

I'm wondering if, instead of "pay tithing on the surplus," you mean pay tithing on the net income, or what is left over after taxes are taken out.

 

The definition given by the First Presidency and cited in the Sunday School Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Teachers Manual does not say "surplus":

except that the word income can and has both legally and culturally been interpreted as Gross, net, and surplus.  Sorry not convinced.  I see all three options on the table and I took it to the Lord.  It is between him and I and not you and me right?

[ERayR]

I dont expect perfection either, But I do expect when they realize they erred or that the Church collectively realizes it erred that it would frankly acknowledge such and not defend a bad position to save face 

 

I don't know that they do that.  It is not a perception that I have but one that you seem to nurture.  You seem to always suspect the worst motivation.  That approach always leads to dissatisfaction.  No offense meant.

[DBMormon]

Even the money I have currently in savings I don't consider surplus, as all of it and more will eventually go toward paying for children's higher education and missions.

 

"Paying on the surplus" is simply not a workable definition for tithing. It sounds more like a rationalization for not paying anything.

except the commandment is to pay on each "increase" annually.  hence it is not future years payouts but this years.  again, don't have me yet.  I have prayerfully selected surplus.  Continue to subtly denounce it. 

[stemelbow]

I wish you hadn't deleted it. It made a lot of sense.

 

I even gave you a rep point for it.

if someone, like DBMormon, feels comfortable with it, then so be it. It's not my place to question. I don't get it, but what works for some people, I've noticed, is quite often something I can't seem to wrap my head around. Maybe others look at what works for me in life and think I'm crazy.

So whatever. I re-read what I wrote and decided the tone wasn't in keeping with what I wanted to convey--perhaps a little too sarcastic.

[ERayR]

No, What I am saying is that I now pay for food, modest housing, modest transportation, along with modest clothes, utilities, fuel, etc... and then I pay 10% of what is left after that.  I meant what I said

 

If I did that I would not pay any tithing.  Should I ask for a refund?

[DBMormon]

The common thread seems to be that there is way to much investment in the authority of the church leadership. Maybe this is because the closer you are to the "centre" of church leadership the more the influence. I think there are great blessings associated with being geographically close but there are some cultural pecularities that come with it. It may be easier said then done, but don't let the church hold so much weight in your spiritual development. Finding the balance though can be hard.

That is where I am now.  I am personally firmly in the church as I see it.  I wend my own way after consulting God and exploring the data.  I do not feel bound to nonsense in any way.  If I find some to be nonsense I discard it and move on.  I am by all defintions a "cafeteria" mormon, who also has a tesitimony.  I see myself along the lines of Terry Givens and how he makes sense of it.  It works for me and so I am still Mormon and happy to be so.  

[DBMormon]

I don't know that they do that.  It is not a perception that I have but one that you seem to nurture.  You seem to always suspect the worst motivation.  That approach always leads to dissatisfaction.  No offense meant.

no offense, I totally agree.  That is the in some cases the lens I see through.  My faith crisis damaged me.  It took the trust I had in the Church and stomped on it.  So on some issues I see things in a jaded way.  I hope it gets better, I hope I can restore that trust completely.  I trust Christ 100% (even after exploring deeply the historical jesus) and I have a testimony of the Church, but I do not trust the Churchj completely to do what is best for me.  Erayr, thank you for how you worded this.  I appreciate your comment

[DBMormon]

if someone, like DBMormon, feels comfortable with it, then so be it. It's not my place to question. I don't get it, but what works for some people, I've noticed, is quite often something I can't seem to wrap my head around. Maybe others look at what works for me in life and think I'm crazy.

So whatever. I re-read what I wrote and decided the tone wasn't in keeping with what I wanted to convey--perhaps a little too sarcastic.

It has precedent by the way

 

• "The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

[DBMormon]

If I did that I would not pay any tithing.  Should I ask for a refund?

It is between you and the Lord.  I took it to him.  We have an understanding.  I can do nothing more than what I feel to do.

[Scott Lloyd]

except the commandment is to pay on each "increase" annually.  hence it is not future years payouts but this years.  again, don't have me yet.  I have prayerfully selected surplus.  Continue to subtly denounce it. 

It does strikes me as a hinky definition of tithe paying, one fraught with problems, as has already been pointed out here. And no, I don't believe it accords with the First Presidency definition I cited.

 

But I really don't care what you do, and I'm not denouncing you for your personal decision. If anything, it seems you are the one with the chip-on-the-shoulder mentality, repeatedly raising this issue and criticizing the Church for not telling people they are free to apply your quirky definition of tithing.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

no offense, I totally agree.  That is the in some cases the lens I see through.  My faith crisis damaged me.  It took the trust I had in the Church and stomped on it.  So on some issues I see things in a jaded way.  I hope it gets better, I hope I can restore that trust completely.  I trust Christ 100% (even after exploring deeply the historical jesus) and I have a testimony of the Church, but I do not trust the Churchj completely to do what is best for me.  Erayr, thank you for how you worded this.  I appreciate your comment

 

It is always easier to look at things dispassionately from a distance when we are not involved.  The trust you speak of that was destroyed, was it somehow naive?  Also personal choice, how you choose ro respond and what you choose to believe and do played/play a big role in your attitude.  Just hang in there and work on it.  

[Ahab]

<p>

It has precedent by the way

• "The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

Thank you for this, although I wish someone other than Orson Hyde had said it.

I've been in a situation for several years now that many members wouldn't feel right about which I still think is okay for the time being. I got into debt being stupid with credit cards, even getting equity loans a few times to pay off the max 20k limit balance each time, and for the last year or so I haven't paid tithes so that I can pay off the credit card and equity loans quicker. It would take me a lot, lot longer to pay off the debt while paying a tithe and I would also be paying a lot, lot more interest that way, so I feel this is the best way to get out of this mess that my stupidity got me and my wife into. The best way, I say, although I would much rather be able to comfortably pay tithes.

ETA: We shredded the credit cards soon after we stopped paying tithes.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Ahab

[VideoGameJunkie]

I hope you get out of debt soon! Debt must be very frustrating and scary.

[Ahab]

I hope you get out of debt soon! Debt must be very frustrating and scary.

Yes, so please do as our Church leaders counsel us to do and do your very best to stay out of debt, especially from credit cards. THOSE things are scary for people like me, like gambling is for others, I suppose. I started out thinking I would pay off the balance each month, and then a small monthly payment seemed okay, and then the payment just gradually kept getting bigger. So easy to use, but not nearly as easy to pay off unless you're financially able to pay it off every month.