JAHS Posted September 1, 2014 Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) In 2 Tim 3: 1-7 the Apostle Paul said:"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." And Jesus said:“And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.” Matthew 24:6-7 There are other similar scriptures that prophesy of the conditions in the end times. The Proclamation on the Family states:"Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon the individuals, communities and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets." As church members we are warned of these things so we will recognize them for what they are when they happen and so we can defend ourselves against them, and I believe we should stand up for what we believe is right. And there may be a few individuals who might heed the warnings and save themselves. But with regards to the world, no matter what we do the end result will be the same. If those things were prophesied to happen, they are going to happen. What good does it do to warn the communities and nations if they are going to happen regardless of what they or we do? Edited to add:The point I am trying to make is that the quote from the "Proclamation on the Family" seems to imply that if the nations of the world would try to do something to prevent the disintegration of the families, that the end of the world calamities foretold by the prophets would not happen. But the prophesies tell us they are going to happen anyway, otherwise they would be false prophesies. Edited September 1, 2014 by JAHS
teddyaware Posted September 1, 2014 Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) In 2 Tim 3: 1-7 the Apostle Paul said:"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." And Jesus said:“And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.” Matthew 24:6-7 There are other similar scriptures that prophesy of the conditions in the end times. The Proclamation on the Family states:"Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon the individuals, communities and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets." As church members we are warned of these things so we will recognize them for what they are when they happen and so we can defend ourselves against them, and I believe we should stand up for what we believe is right. And there may be a few individuals who might heed the warnings and save themselves. But with regards to the world, no matter what we do the end result will be the same. If those things were prophesied to happen, they are going to happen. What good does it do to warn the communities and nations if they are going to happen regardless of what they or we do?In his October 1987 General Conference address, "Come unto Christ," President Ezra Taft Benson helps to answer your question:"In the final letter recorded in the Book of Mormon from Mormon to his son Moroni, he gave counsel that applies to our day. Both father and son were seeing a whole Christian civilization fall because its people would not serve the God of the land, even Jesus Christ. Mormon wrote, “And now, my beloved son, notwithstanding their hardness, let us labor diligently; for if we should cease to labor, we should be brought under condemnation; for we have a labor to perform whilst in this tabernacle of clay, that we may conquer the enemy of all righteousness, and rest our souls in the kingdom of God” (Moro. 9:6). You and I have a similar labor to perform now—to conquer the enemy and rest our souls in the kingdom." (Ezra Taft Benson) So even though, as we know, Mormon had zero hope for success in reconverting the totally hardened Nephites, the prophet solemnly warns his son Moroni that if either of them do give up in courageously upholding the truth they will be under condemnation and lose their own souls. But why? Were not these Nephites so hardened against God's truth that they had placed themselves beyond the ability to repent? Why should they have bothered to continue in their prophetic warnings to their countrymen? Samuel the Lamanite provides the answer:28 And the angel said unto me that many shall see greater things than these, to the intent that they might believe that these signs and these wonders should come to pass upon all the face of this land, to the intent that there should be no cause for unbelief among the children of men—29 And this to the intent that whosoever will believe might be saved, and that whosoever will not believe, a righteous judgment might come upon them; and also if they are condemned they bring upon themselves their own condemnation. (Heleman 14) Edited September 1, 2014 by teddyaware
Rain Posted September 1, 2014 Posted September 1, 2014 Because nations are made of individuals who may listen when nations don't. Because parents who do not warn children are abusive by their neglect. 1
Alan Posted September 1, 2014 Posted September 1, 2014 No they're not. They're neglectful, but not abusive.
longview Posted September 1, 2014 Posted September 1, 2014 . . .. . .But with regards to the world, no matter what we do the end result will be the same. If those things were prophesied to happen, they are going to happen. What good does it do to warn the communities and nations if they are going to happen regardless of what they or we do?Because nations are made of individuals who may listen when nations don't. We should never cease to labor. We are in a contest for the souls of men. If we can pull away a few from the rabble . . . Doctrine and Covenants 18:15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father! 16 And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me! 1
JAHS Posted September 1, 2014 Author Posted September 1, 2014 In his October 1987 General Conference address, "Come unto Christ," President Ezra Taft Benson helps to answer your question:"In the final letter recorded in the Book of Mormon from Mormon to his son Moroni, he gave counsel that applies to our day. Both father and son were seeing a whole Christian civilization fall because its people would not serve the God of the land, even Jesus Christ. Mormon wrote, “And now, my beloved son, notwithstanding their hardness, let us labor diligently; for if we should cease to labor, we should be brought under condemnation; for we have a labor to perform whilst in this tabernacle of clay, that we may conquer the enemy of all righteousness, and rest our souls in the kingdom of God” (Moro. 9:6). You and I have a similar labor to perform now—to conquer the enemy and rest our souls in the kingdom." (Ezra Taft Benson) So even though, as we know, Mormon had zero hope for success in reconverting the totally hardened Nephites, the prophet solemnly warns his son Moroni that if either of them do give up in courageously upholding the truth they will be under condemnation and lose their own souls. But why? Were not these Nephites so hardened against God's truth that they had placed themselves beyond the ability to repent? Why should they have bothered to continue in their prophetic warnings to their countrymen? Samuel the Lamanite provides the answer:28 And the angel said unto me that many shall see greater things than these, to the intent that they might believe that these signs and these wonders should come to pass upon all the face of this land, to the intent that there should be no cause for unbelief among the children of men—29 And this to the intent that whosoever will believe might be saved, and that whosoever will not believe, a righteous judgment might come upon them; and also if they are condemned they bring upon themselves their own condemnation. (Heleman 14)I agree with all this. I guess the point I am trying to make is that the quote from the "Proclamation on the Family" seems to imply that if the nations of the world would try to do something to strengthen the families, that the end of the world calamities foretold by the prophets would not happen. But the prophesies tell us they are going to happen anyway, otherwise they would be false prophesies.
Guest Posted September 1, 2014 Posted September 1, 2014 People are "warned" that they may be judged righteously.
JAHS Posted September 1, 2014 Author Posted September 1, 2014 People are "warned" that they may be judged righteously. I agree that we should warn people of the immediate personal consequences of the disintegration of the family and if they don't heed the warning, they will suffer those consequences and God will judge them accordingly. But even if they do change their ways that is not going to stop the end of the world destruction and calamities foretold by prophesy. The proclamation of the family statement implies that if they change their ways the calamities will not happen. Is that true?Why not just tell them that their lives will benefit now by making changes to strengthen the family, so they can survive in this world when the end calamities do come? That makes more sense to me.
CV75 Posted September 1, 2014 Posted September 1, 2014 The point I am trying to make is that the quote from the "Proclamation on the Family" seems to imply that if the nations of the world would try to do something to prevent the disintegration of the families, that the end of the world calamities foretold by the prophets would not happen. But the prophesies tell us they are going to happen anyway, otherwise they would be false prophesies.It says, “Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.” This means the disintegration of the family is one of many forms of wickedness that will result in the foretold calamities. The same could be said of any other form of wickedness, but it is interesting to me that there is no form of wickedness that does not affect the family of God and one’s standing within it. Also, "it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" So of course the consequences of those "offences" follow.
Guest Posted September 1, 2014 Posted September 1, 2014 I agree that we should warn people of the immediate personal consequences of the disintegration of the family and if they don't heed the warning, they will suffer those consequences and God will judge them accordingly. But even if they do change their ways that is not going to stop the end of the world destruction and calamities foretold by prophesy. The proclamation of the family statement implies that if they change their ways the calamities will not happen. Is that true?Why not just tell them that their lives will benefit now by making changes to strengthen the family, so they can survive in this world when the end calamities do come? That makes more sense to me.True it will not stop what is to come....but oh the joy that will come after.
Hamba Tuhan Posted September 2, 2014 Posted September 2, 2014 If those things were prophesied to happen, they are going to happen. What good does it do to warn the communities and nations if they are going to happen regardless of what they or we do? For some reason I'm reminded of Nineveh. 1
JAHS Posted September 2, 2014 Author Posted September 2, 2014 For some reason I'm reminded of Nineveh.Yes I thought of Nineveh as well, but that was the possible destruction of only one city; we are talking about the end of the world calamities and destruction, which I'm pretty sure is going to happen no matter what we do,
Sevenbak Posted September 2, 2014 Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) Yes I thought of Nineveh as well, but that was the possible destruction of only one city; we are talking about the end of the world calamities and destruction, which I'm pretty sure is going to happen no matter what we do,First, I don't think the Proclamation on the Family, as stated in your OP says that the destruction is conditional. I think this is what you are talking about?? "Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets." To me, that reads that it will happen, and that the Church has warned the world and set a standard. I think part of that is not hiding light under a bushel, but is all part of the sifting and gathering. I would also think D&C 1, the preamble to the D&C, is the answer. Here's a chunk, but the whole thing seems to be about your OP as well. It's going to happen, but the gospel will gather out those who wish to avoid it. That's my take. 17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments; 18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets— 19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh— 20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; 21 That faith also might increase in the earth; 22 That mine everlasting covenant might be established; 23 That the fulness of my gospel might be proclaimed by theweak and the simple unto the ends of the world, and before kingsand rulers…... 31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; 32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven; 33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strivewith man, saith the Lord of Hosts. 34 And again, verily I say unto you, O inhabitants of the earth: I the Lord am willing to make these things known unto all flesh; 35 For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and thedevil shall have power over his own dominion. 36 And also the Lord shall have power over his saints, and shallreign in their midst, and shall come down in judgment uponIdumea, or the world…. Edited September 2, 2014 by Sevenbak
Hamba Tuhan Posted September 2, 2014 Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) We are talking about the end of the world calamities and destruction, which I'm pretty sure is going to happen no matter what we do, But to which individuals? To which communities, which cities, and which nations? Before the Bad Ship Babylon goes down, I'd like as many passengers as possible to have got off -- or at least to have had some notice to head to the life boats. Whole decks, even. Wouldn't you? Edited September 2, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan 1
JAHS Posted September 2, 2014 Author Posted September 2, 2014 But to which individuals? To which communities, which cities, and which nations? Before the Bad Ship Babylon goes down, I'd like as many passengers as possible to have got off -- or at least to have had some notice to head to the life boats. Whole decks, even. Wouldn't you?Yes I would. The main point I am making is the seemingly cause and effect nature of the Proclamation on the Family statement, which seems to imply that if the nations heed our warning the end time calamities won't happen.
Hamba Tuhan Posted September 2, 2014 Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) The main point I am making is the seemingly cause and effect nature of the Proclamation on the Family statement, which seems to imply that if the nations heed our warning the end time calamities won't happen. Any individual, community, or nation that heeds the Lord's warnings will indeed be spared the prophesied calamities. Edited September 2, 2014 by Hamba Tuhan
Avatar4321 Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 We warn the nations because we are commanded to. If the world doesn't know the consequences for their actions, their punishment would not be just.
stemelbow Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 The problems described in these passages have always been. at what era were the inhabitants of the world the least righteous? Some may say now. but we don't know that. We have more people than ever before living on this planet, it seems. Perhaps in that sense there is more evil than ever before--more people doing the stuff listed. We should always preach against evil, in hopes we change. Problem remains, the members are no more righteous than anyone else.
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