Does Heavenly Mother Sustain Ow?

[mfbukowski]

Just thought I would ask any supporters of OW if Heavenly Mother feels oppressed by the Priesthood.

 

I am trying to figure out how I would handle that question if I were an OW sympathizer.

 

 

[Calm]

I would assume they believe she has the Priesthood fully.

[sethpayne]

I would assume they believe she has the Priesthood fully.

 

Give the nature of the Temple's highest ordinances and I'd say that's a safe bet.

[JAHS]

She has now what every living worthy endowed female member of the church will have some day. I very much doubt she was involved in any protesting in Her previous life. 

[sethpayne]

She has now what every living worthy endowed female member of the church will have some day. I very much doubt she was involved in any protesting in Her previous life. 

 

So anyone who is part of OW has forfeited their exaltation?  If we are to believe Joseph, God himself lived like we do now.  I'm assuming the same would be true of Heavenly Mother.

 

Why would we think that they lived lives where they didn't advocate -- rightly or wrongly -- for a given particular viewpoint?  There is no scripture or prophetic statement that I know of -- which indicates that our HF and HM were sinless beings.  If so, we should all just give up now because we have no hope.

[Buckeye]

Just thought I would ask any supporters of OW if Heavenly Mother feels oppressed by the Priesthood.

 

Not such much oppressed as repressed .... by the violence inherent in the system. 

[thesometimesaint]

So anyone who is part of OW has forfeited their exaltation?  If we are to believe Joseph, God himself lived like we do now.  I'm assuming the same would be true of Heavenly Mother.

 

Why would we think that they lived lives where they didn't advocate -- rightly or wrongly -- for a given particular viewpoint?  There is no scripture or prophetic statement that I know of -- which indicates that our HF and HM were sinless beings.  If so, we should all just give up now because we have no hope.

 

I'm in no position to judge the OW members as to the possibilities in their exaltation. Some of their members status as members of the Church however is now a matter of public record. God himself did live like we do now. But that does not indicate any sin. The same does apply to HM.

 

Having a different viewpoint is not a matter of sin. We are all entitled to our opinions on any subject. Christ himself didn't want to partake of that bitter cup. However he did do the will of his father. The sin comes in when continuing to teach as Church doctrine after being corrected by the Church. Otherwise known as open rebellion.

 

We are all totally dependent on the Atonement of Christ.

[sethpayne]

I'm in no position to judge the OW members as to the possibilities in their exaltation. Some of their members status as members of the Church however is now a matter of public record. God himself did live like we do now. But that does not indicate any sin. The same does apply to HM.

 

Having a different viewpoint is not a matter of sin. We are all entitled to our opinions on any subject. Christ himself didn't want to partake of that bitter cup. However he did do the will of his father. The sin comes in when continuing to teach as Church doctrine after being corrected by the Church. Otherwise known as open rebellion.

 

We are all totally dependent on the Atonement of Christ.

 

I agree with you but I'm not clear on why you think that sin would not apply to HF or HM.  I know we have very little information but why would we think that they were sinless?  I would think that Joseph's comments on God being like we are now means just that.  He suffered the same problems -- including sin -- that we do.

 

As I say we know almost nothing about this but I've heard this idea before, that HF was sinless -- and I'm just not sure where it comes from.

[JAHS]

So anyone who is part of OW has forfeited their exaltation?  If we are to believe Joseph, God himself lived like we do now.  I'm assuming the same would be true of Heavenly Mother.

 

Why would we think that they lived lives where they didn't advocate -- rightly or wrongly -- for a given particular viewpoint?  There is no scripture or prophetic statement that I know of -- which indicates that our HF and HM were sinless beings.  If so, we should all just give up now because we have no hope.

There's always repentance for everyone who makes mistakes. This only works though if after we have been told by church leaders that what we believe in or have done is a mistake, we repent from believing in the incorrect doctrine. 

[Erin15]

So anyone who is part of OW has forfeited their exaltation? If we are to believe Joseph, God himself lived like we do now. I'm assuming the same would be true of Heavenly Mother.

Why would we think that they lived lives where they didn't advocate -- rightly or wrongly -- for a given particular viewpoint? There is no scripture or prophetic statement that I know of -- which indicates that our HF and HM were sinless beings. If so, we should all just give up now because we have no hope.

KK can become a member of the church again. All she has to do is repent.

It is up to her.

[Buckeye]

I'm in no position to judge the OW members as to the possibilities in their exaltation. Some of their members status as members of the Church however is now a matter of public record. God himself did live like we do now. But that does not indicate any sin. The same does apply to HM.

 

Having a different viewpoint is not a matter of sin. We are all entitled to our opinions on any subject. Christ himself didn't want to partake of that bitter cup. However he did do the will of his father. The sin comes in when continuing to teach as Church doctrine after being corrected by the Church. Otherwise known as open rebellion.

 

We are all totally dependent on the Atonement of Christ.

 

Since we're wildly speculating ...... it seems that a sinless HF and HM would mean that HF and HM experienced a fundamentally different plan of salvation than we do.  In our plan, only one person is sinless - Christ - and he alone is the intercessor for all men and women.  If the plan in which HF and HM operated allowed for them both to be sinless, it seems that they both would have been saviors for their people.  That doesn't strike me as impossible, but it does seem significantly different than our plan.

 

I guess another way of getting at this is by asking, "do you believe that Christ's wife(s)" are sinless?  If so, where the heck do they come from?  If not, then why would we need suppose that HM was sinless?

 

In other news, the angel which had fallen off of the pinhead has now gotten back on top, so the number of angels on the pinhead is once again seven.  You can all rest at ease. 

[thesometimesaint]

I agree with you but I'm not clear on why you think that sin would not apply to HF or HM.  I know we have very little information but why would we think that they were sinless?  I would think that Joseph's comments on God being like we are now means just that.  He suffered the same problems -- including sin -- that we do.

 

As I say we know almost nothing about this but I've heard this idea before, that HF was sinless -- and I'm just not sure where it comes from.

 

The only earthly example we have is Christ. So going beyond what he said and did present problems for both sides. The Scriptures say that Christ did nothing that he didn't see his father do. Christ was sinless.

 

Suffering problems is not the same as sinning. Christ certainly had plenty of problems, undoubtedly made mistakes in learning to be a carpenter, but was still sinless.

[Jeanne]

She is carrying a sign in the Celestial Kingdom as we speak...

[thesometimesaint]

Since we're wildly speculating ...... it seems that a sinless HF and HM would mean that HF and HM experienced a fundamentally different plan of salvation than we do.  In our plan, only one person is sinless - Christ - and he alone is the intercessor for all men and women.  If the plan in which HF and HM operated allowed for them both to be sinless, it seems that they both would have been saviors for their people.  That doesn't strike me as impossible, but it does seem significantly different than our plan.

 

I guess another way of getting at this is by asking, "do you believe that Christ's wife(s)" are sinless?  If so, where the heck do they come from?  If not, then why would we need suppose that HM was sinless?

 

In other news, the angel which had fallen off of the pinhead has now gotten back on top, so the number of angels on the pinhead is once again seven.  You can all rest at ease. 

 

In the Book of Job, Job was perfect in his generation. Whatever that means.

 

I see no reason to claim Christ wife(s ) were sinful or sinless. I see no reason to claim that HM was sinful or sinless. Growing up I considered my mom practically perfect in every way. Now as a father and grandfather myself I know she was just a very good woman trying to do her best for her God and her children.

 

That 's either one very big pinhead or some very small angels.

[sethpayne]

There's always repentance for everyone who makes mistakes. This only works though if after we have been told by church leaders that what we believe in or have done is a mistake, we repent from believing in the incorrect doctrine. 

 

But you said HM would not have done something like OW.  So could she have and repented?

[ERayR]

Just thought I would ask any supporters of OW if Heavenly Mother feels oppressed by the Priesthood.

 

I am trying to figure out how I would handle that question if I were an OW sympathizer.

 

Of course she does.  She is just afraid to say so. 

[JAHS]

But you said HM would not have done something like OW.  So could she have and repented?

Yes she could have, but it is my opinion that she would have been smart enough and faithful enough to not do something like that in the first place.

[sethpayne]

Yes she could have, but it is my opinion that she would have been smart enough and faithful enough to not do something like that in the first place.

 

Ok.  

 

But I'm genuinely curious as to why you have this opinion.  It certainly could be true and I'm not doubting that.  

 

Are we -- speaking generally -- uncomfortable with the fact that exalted beings may, in their temporal state, have committed sin -- even serious sin.

 

And just for the record, I don't think being a part of OW -- in itself -- is in any way sinful.

[mfbukowski]

Give the nature of the Temple's highest ordinances and I'd say that's a safe bet.

I read that to imply that OW ("they") sustains the temple's highest ordinances which I understand to imply that women participate as a "Divine Pair" with their husbands in the Priesthood.

 

But somehow I think I didn't get what you meant on that point.  Could you clarify?  Is "they" OW?

[ERayR]

Ok.  

 

But I'm genuinely curious as to why you have this opinion.  It certainly could be true and I'm not doubting that.  

 

Are we -- speaking generally -- uncomfortable with the fact that exalted beings may, in their temporal state, have committed sin -- even serious sin.

 

And just for the record, I don't think being a part of OW -- in itself -- is in any way sinful.

 

I think that is probably the reason.  I am not uncomfortable with what might have been.  It is what is now that is important.

[mfbukowski]

I would assume they believe she has the Priesthood fully.

So HM then, according to your speculation on the position of OW, would agree with OW in that at present women do not have the "Priesthood fully"?

 

My mission in life is to clarify language continually.  Sorry to pin you down, but I want to know what you think they think I guess.

[mfbukowski]

She has now what every living worthy endowed female member of the church will have some day. I very much doubt she was involved in any protesting in Her previous life. 

Implying that women do not now have all that they will have?

 

Or that our interpretation of what they now have will change as we learn more about what they have now?

[mfbukowski]

Not such much oppressed as repressed .... by the violence inherent in the system. 

So she feels repressed by the violence inherent in God's system?

 

Surely she would not feel repressed in an earthly system which is presently incorrect?

[Buckeye]

So HM then, according to your speculation on the position of OW, would agree with OW in that at present women do not have the "Priesthood fully"?

 

 

I think it's a safe bet that none of us in the earthly church have the "priesthood fully."  As one example, Elder Oaks said in the last conference that the church does not have keys to perform resurrections. 

[mfbukowski]

I agree with you but I'm not clear on why you think that sin would not apply to HF or HM.  I know we have very little information but why would we think that they were sinless?  I would think that Joseph's comments on God being like we are now means just that.  He suffered the same problems -- including sin -- that we do.

 

As I say we know almost nothing about this but I've heard this idea before, that HF was sinless -- and I'm just not sure where it comes from.

I guess some of this goes to the definition of sin.

 

I thought that sin is enmity toward God- and putting one's will ahead of God's will.

 

How would it be possible for God, including HM as a Divine Pair, have enmity toward himself/herself?