cdowis Posted August 12, 2014 Posted August 12, 2014 Someone posted this question on the Google+ forum (youtube) Does your God and your Jesus warn you of false prophets and how to spot them and what to do when you spot one? What is the method for spoting a false prophet? How do you go about doing that? Are there not false teachers and prophets all around us? What did God tell you to do to spot one? This is a thoughtful question. How would you answer it?
mfbukowski Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) I would question why he thinks the Bible's prophets were "true" and why he believes in Jesus at all. Could they all not be "false prophets"? Our answer to that of course is testimony- which all Christians must have to know that Jesus is the Christ. If you answer an altar call, and declare Christ to be your savior, you are doing it because of a feeling in your heart. That is a testimony. That is the only way you can know that Jesus is the Christ in the first place. A testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy. History is irrelevant- because no one can verify the atonement historically. Even if we had a time machine and went back and took videos of Gethsemane and the crucifixion and saw with our own eyes exactly what happened minute by minute- we still would not know that Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins. Think of all the passers by who saw the crucifixion and thought nothing of it. That is the direction I would take. And yes, different people get different "true" testimonies because God leads us all to Christ in the way that is best for us. If history and tradition are important to you, God could direct you to Catholicism. If the Bible is important to you, perhaps he would direct you to be an EV. But my understanding of our beliefs is that eventually nearly all of us will end up on the same road and "every knee bow and every tongue confess" etc. That's my story and I'm stickin to it! Edited August 13, 2014 by mfbukowski
rameumptom Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 Revelation tells us that the "testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy", and is the only way to know whether someone is speaking truth or lies.
Kevin Christensen Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 I answered it by compiling a list of 28 Biblical Tests for Discerning True and False Prophets, a list of things the Bible says that you should do in order to see truth, along with a complimentary list of things not to do, and a list of arguments given by Biblical peoples in defense of the rejection of true prophets, as examples of what not to do. The overall picture includes all three elements—tests to apply, actions and attitudes to demonstrate, and mistakes to avoid—and reveals an organic interaction between them. That is, those who use the appropriate tests for prophets also demonstrate the behavior recommended for seeing truth. Those who reject true prophets fall short of the recommended behavior. In consequence, they miss or misapply the actual tests for true prophets, and repeat the kinds of arguments used by those who rejected true prophets anciently. This shows why Jesus said “He that receiveth you receiveth me.” (Matthew 10:40). Despite the passage of millennia, that same issues arise. We too quickly congratulate ourselves for being modern. http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets There are a few formatting issues in the conversion from my source to the current html, but the information is there. The whole essay may have some relevance. FWIW Kevin Christensen Pittsburgh, PA 1
JAHS Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7: 17-20) By their fruits and what they say must not contradict scripture or established doctrine. After this test it is a matter of faith and confirmation from the Holy Ghost.
Ahab Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 Yes and the Bible has scripture stating that when we ask God for something with faith that he will answer us that he will answer us so we can ask him if what someone says is true and is saying what God would say or has said.
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 Does your God and your Jesus warn you of false prophets and how to spot them and what to do when you spot one? Not really. God and Jesus haven't warned me of that personally. There are some folks who claim to be prophets saying that we ought to be concerned about false ones. It can make sense, depending on how you define prophet. I think a message has come down that suggests I should stone a false prophet when I spot him. I tried that when I was 7 but the 13 year old socked me and I cried. What is the method for spoting a false prophet? Binoculars is best, that ensures you stay a safe distance. Luck often is such, though, they are right on ya before you know it. How do you go about doing that? Spotting one? I go about it by peering deeply into his/her eyes. Are there not false teachers and prophets all around us? Certainly there are. What did God tell you to do to spot one? Not a thing. He seems more concerned I learn to take thoughts and ideas as spewing out of people and learn to discern whether they are good or bad things. I admit I ain't the best at it. 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 Really the question should be "How do we tell who is a true prophet". If all they want to know is who is false they are asking the wrong questions and looking at things from the wrong perspective.
stemelbow Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) Really the question should be "How do we tell who is a true prophet". If all they want to know is who is false they are asking the wrong questions and looking at things from the wrong perspective.Take a million people. Pick one of these people to be a true prophet only speaking truths. Get some other person to dive into this group of a million and ask them to derive the prophet. Tough stuff. No wonder why Mormons are only .1% of the world's population.Read the board rules again. Edited August 13, 2014 by Nemesis
Zakuska Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) Well we could have our prophet cut up one of our politici... err enemies into 12 pieces and FedEx each piece around the country as a testimony to his "true prophet" status. That's what Samuel did to the King Saul failed to follow the Lord's instructions with. Edited August 13, 2014 by Zakuska
Darren10 Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 I just did a Bing search on "False prophet detective kit" and came up with nothing. I think one needs to keep in tune with the Holy Spirit as to who is a false prophet and who is a real prophet / who are false prophets who are real prophets. After gaining a testimony of Joseph Smith I earnestly sought a spiritual witness that today's prophets are true. The happened and then I turned attention to living apostles being true prophets. On that regard God gave me an experience I'll never forget. Yes, these are true and living prophets.
Darren10 Posted August 13, 2014 Posted August 13, 2014 Not a thing. He seems more concerned I learn to take thoughts and ideas as spewing out of people and learn to discern whether they are good or bad things. I admit I ain't the best at it. Based on your other responses I'll completely vouch for your not being "the best at it". keep trying though and insert "being considerate". That should help.
Kevin Christensen Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) Perhaps I need to be a bit more explicit. The Bible certain is far more explicit on how to discern true and false prophets than we give it credit it for. My essay gives the references. http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests Here is the summary Bible Tests for True and False Prophets Of True Of False Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Also Revelation 19:10, Ephesians 4:13, Psalms 25:, Psalms 24:, Jeremiah 3:15, Numbers 11:2 Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly, they are ravening wolves. Also Matthew 24:11, 2 Timothy 3:1-9 and 2 Timothy 4:3-4. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 and 2 Thessalonians 4:1-3 Wherefore, by their fruits shall ye know them. —Matthew 7:20 Claims a True Prophet must make Revelation and Vision Witnesses Chosen by God Ordained by prophesy and the laying on of hands by those in authority Teaching of Christ Christ ordained by God to judge all men, and Teaches belief on him for remission of sins Testifies that Jesus is "come in the flesh" Apostles and prophets given "till we all come in a unity of the faith" Accepts the Biblical God Character of Teaching Preaches Repentance Teaches of one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all Teaches by the spirit, so that your faith stands in the power of God Opens understanding of the scriptures Teaching consistent with scripture Provides knowledge of the heavenly council Provides knowledge of the Lord's covenant They teach their followers to expect trials in this life Personal Character Seeks to please God, not men Teaches with authority, and not as a scribe They lead as willing ensamples to the flock, not for filthy lucre Recognizes and is united with authorized prophets They admit to being men of passion, like us, liable to sin Evidences provided God bears them witness with signs and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to his own will A prophet may do works none other man did. Teaches that the investigators must keep his words to learn the truth of them. Prophecy Teaches that we must pray Over time, arguments against a prophet fail, and demonstrate confusionThe essay also includes a brief comparison with Joseph Smith: A Preliminary Test of Joseph Smith Those familiar with even Joseph Smith's 1838 testimony, as published in the Pearl of Great Price, the Articles of Faith, and the Book of Mormon should see much that indicates that his claims should be taken seriously in light of the Bible tests. Claims a True Prophet must make He recounts his first vision of deity He reports that he has been visited by an angel and called by God for a work. His most important claims come with witnesses, not just people he convinced, but people who have seen what he had seen. This includes the three witnesses of the angel and the plates, the eight formal witnesses of the plates, other informal witnesses, and the important shared visions with Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery. He reports ordinations to the priesthood following the pattern of Aaron. Teaching of Christ He testifies that Jesus is the Christ, that he came in the flesh., that he will judge all men. He talks about faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism. He affirms the need for apostles and prophets. He affirms the Bible witness in his use of the Bible, his prayers, his identification with Paul, his fulfillment of the Bible prophecy of the sealed book. Character of Teaching He teaches belief in God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and that these constitute in unity One God. He teaches the need for faith, repentance, baptism, and the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost. He restores knowledge of the covenants and ordinances. (See D&C 1) He teaches about the heavenly council. His revelations teach us to expect trials, and that our sufferings can be “consecrated to our gain” (2 Nephi 2:2). Personal Character He lived his life in the face of constant, often violent, and ultimately fatal opposition, demonstrating that he learned by experience (D&C 3, D&C 121-2, and D&C 135) to fear God more than men. He led by example, including working with his own hands, facing danger, placing himself in danger rather expending his followers for his benefit. He freely admitted his own personal weakness, even including, in his official history, his involvement in money digging. Evidences provided He reports a prophecy, now unambiguously fulfilled, that his name should be had for good and evil among all nations. He produced the Book of Mormon He admits his own personal weakness, including his celebrated money digging. He provides accounts and revelations of the secrets of the divine council in 1 Nephi 1:, Moses 4:1-4, Abraham 3:19-28, and DC 76:. Many of his prophecies have been fulfilled. He provides knowledge about the ordinances and covenants. He provides insights opening understanding of the scriptures. He makes impressive predictions about the Book of Mormon (such as D&C 3) and in the Book of Mormon. Many of the objections raised against him and against the Book of Mormon have been superseded by later events and discoveries. A recent example has been the recent collapse of the claims for DNA evidence against the Book of Mormon. He teaches by example and precept that we should pray to find the truth for ourselves. In comparison with the Biblical standard, all of this invites further consideration. Not only does Joseph Smith impress compared to the Biblical standard, but I have found no rival candidates that come close. This does not prove his claims, nor exhaust the testing that can and should be done. It should invite us to take Joseph Smith seriously, to consider his works, such as the Book of Mormon, to explore the testimony of the witnesses, to try living the gospel, to carefully compare LDS teaching with the scriptures, and to pray.We can ignore all of this as too difficult, or esoteric, or Biblical. We can decide that a true prophet is one who tells me what I want to hear, or one who teaches the orthodox religion, orthodoxy being whatever a preferred social group thinks is so. We can decide that false prophet is one who I can associate with anything of which I disapprove or do not want to hear, or who is unorthodox relative to the standards of my society. But my point in collecting and publishing them was to demonstrate that they exist in abundance, and that their existence has implications for not only the claims of Joseph Smith, but the claims of a great many people. I could not help but notice that anyone could have done what I had done, and yet, as far as I can see, no one had. Also notice that the passage on "by their fruits ye shall know them" is preceded by a comparison of figs and thistles. That is, a tree that produces figs rather than thistles should not be dismissed because you can find a worm eaten fig on a branch, or a rotten one on the ground by the tree. A lovely thistle is not a fig. And no matter how many thistles a plant produces, even of high quality, that does not make it a fig. The Bible also has many passages that describe what a person should do to see truth in terms of actions to perform and attitudes to embrace: It includes, but is a bit more complex than "seek the spirit." http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Seeing_the_truth I have compiled principally Biblical scriptures that describe both the means to see truth, and contrary passages that describe how to avoid it. These should serve as common ground for discussion. Be interested Listen with Purposeful Intent: Seeking Knowledge of God Study with Open Minds and with Faith (where faith is hope for that which is not seen) Examine the works Listen to all the witnesses (not selecting to justify a desired result) Consider the credentials and motives of the authorities and witnesses involved Be as concerned with measuring yourself as with measuring the prophets Receive the prophets and their followers for what they are, not requiring them to be something else Pray Persist whatever the cost Taken together, these show the sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. FWIW Kevin Christensen Pittsburgh, PA Edited August 18, 2014 by Kevin Christensen 1
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Take a million people. Pick one of these people to be a true prophet only speaking truths. Get some other person to dive into this group of a million and ask them to derive the prophet. Tough stuff. No wonder why Mormons are only .1% of the world's population.Read the board rules again. There appears to be no substance in your post. What you said is completely irrelevant.
boblloyd91 Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Hey Kevin, thanks for the info, I know you have shown that before. Out of curiosity, which scriptures are you referring to when you refer to the divine council being taught?
cinepro Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Someone posted this question on the Google+ forum (youtube) This is a thoughtful question. How would you answer it? It's an interesting question, because the problem isn't a lack of data, it's having too much data. There are billions of people who have their "True Prophet Detectors" pointing towards different people, and their "False Prophet Detectors" pointing towards other people (usually the same people that other people are pointing their TPD's towards). If you look at the current and historical ways in which people make these decisions, I doubt you could ever find a consistent and reliable methodology. Even in the LDS Church there's a great degree of variation in how people detect true and false "prophets".
CV75 Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Someone posted this question on the Google+ forum (youtube) This is a thoughtful question. How would you answer it?The attributes of Christ, which the Holy Ghost encourages, is not consistent with the spirit of witch hunts. So we don't approach the problem that specifically or proactively. Pure religion and undefiled is something else altogether (James 1:27; Ephesians 4;11-14). An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is our prevention. If we store up the words of life--and there are many scriptural instructions about false prophets--and are quick to observe, it will be given to us in the hour of need what to do if/when false prophets come our way (D&C 84:85). 1
Kind Debater Posted August 14, 2014 Posted August 14, 2014 Claims a True Prophet must make He recounts his first vision of deity He reports that he has been visited by an angel and called by God for a work. His most important claims come with witnesses, not just people he convinced, but people who have seen what he had seen. This includes the three witnesses of the angel and the plates, the eight formal witnesses of the plates, other informal witnesses, and the important shared visions with Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery. He reports ordinations to the priesthood following the pattern of Aaron. Newbie question here...where would I find the official records of these things, especially the witnesses' testimonies?
cdowis Posted August 14, 2014 Author Posted August 14, 2014 (edited) The Book of Mormon is a great commentary on this subject on true vs false prophets. For example, Hel 13 [26] Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.[27] But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth -- and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.[28] Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him. It talks about priestcraft, the order of Nehor, etc. Edited August 14, 2014 by cdowis
Kevin Christensen Posted August 15, 2014 Posted August 15, 2014 Newbie question here...where would I find the official records of these things, especially the witnesses' testimonies?Try https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=8694 for Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestations. Plus FAIRMormon.org has many useful sources. Best, Kevin ChristensenBethel Park, PA
Kevin Christensen Posted August 15, 2014 Posted August 15, 2014 Hey Kevin, thanks for the info, I know you have shown that before. Out of curiosity, which scriptures are you referring to when you refer to the divine council being taught?You are welcome. I refer to several Biblical verses in my essay, including Amos 3:7. The consensus of current Biblical scholarships that the word translated as "secret", sod, refers to the council. Of course, one true measure of curiosity might be a willingness to click on the links and actually explore my essay at the FAIR Wiki. FWIW, Kevin ChristensenBethel Park, PA 1
boblloyd91 Posted August 15, 2014 Posted August 15, 2014 You are welcome. I refer to several Biblical verses in my essay, including Amos 3:7. The consensus of current Biblical scholarships that the word translated as "secret", sod, refers to the council. Of course, one true measure of curiosity might be a willingness to click on the links and actually explore my essay at the FAIR Wiki. FWIW, Kevin ChristensenBethel Park, PAI think I get a different version on my smart phone and couldn't find the part about the divine council
Kevin Christensen Posted August 16, 2014 Posted August 16, 2014 (edited) http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests/Heavenly_council Character of Teaching Provides knowledge of the heavenly council Of True Of FalseAmos 3:7Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret [sod] unto his servants the prophets.Jeremiah 23:22But if they stood in my council [sod], and caused my people to hear my words, they should have turned them from their evil way and the evil of their doings.Here “secret” is a translation of the Hebrew sod. Professor Daniel Peterson has explained that “an understanding of the Hebrew term sod is crucial for appreciating these passages. In the Old Testament, that word denotes confidential discussions or secrets (as at Proverbs 3:32 and 11:13). It also refers to the council setting in which such confidential discussions are conducted.”[1] Notes↑ Daniel C. Peterson, "'Ye Are Gods': Psalm 82 and John 10 as Witnesses to the Divine Nature of Human Kind," in The Disciple As Scholar: Essays on Scripture and the Ancient World in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson, edited by Richard Lloyd Anderson, Stephen D. Ricks, Donald W. Parry, and Andrew H. Hedges, (Provo, Utah: FARMS, 2000), 506-507. Edited August 16, 2014 by Kevin Christensen 1
Tiki Posted August 16, 2014 Posted August 16, 2014 Someone posted this question on the Google+ forum (youtube) This is a thoughtful question. How would you answer it?Jacob 7:1111 And I said unto him: Then ye do not understand them; for they truly testify of Christ. Behold, I say unto you that none of the prophets have written, nor prophesied, save they have spoken concerning this Christ.Heading to Helaman Chapter 8Corrupt judges seek to incite the people against Nephi—Abraham, Moses, Zenos, Zenock, Ezias, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lehi, and Nephi all testified of Christ—By inspiration Nephi announces the murder of the chief judge. About 23–21 B.C.
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