Freedom Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 I have attended a few evangelical services where people would stand up and start speaking in tongues. To me it seemed to be babbling, repeating the same syllables over and over the way many people do when pretending to speak a different language. That is the way I perceive it anyways and I do not doubt that my own doctrinal biases have tainted my observing skills. The only record of speaking in tongues recorded in the bible is when the apostles spoke in the languages of those present. I am not aware of any biblical examples of speaking a mysterious dialect that nobody understood. In the early years of the church, there are records of people speaking in unknown tongues and another person would stand to interpret it but such a manifestations stopped occurring within a generation as far as I am aware. One of the institute manuals states the following "D&C 46:24–25. The Gift of TonguesThis is one of the most misunderstood gifts. The Lord may grant the gift of speaking in tongues to give an unusual message or communicate with those who speak a different language, as on the day of Pentecost (seeActs 2:4–12). But newly-called missionaries who quickly grasp a foreign language may also be experiencing the gift of tongues.Because this gift is often counterfeited and used to deceive, the Prophet Joseph Smith warned: “Be not so curious about tongues, do not speak in tongues except there be an interpreter present; the ultimate design of tongues is to speak to foreigners, and if persons are very anxious to display their intelligence, let them speak to such in their own tongues. The gifts of God are all useful in their place, but when they are applied to that which God does not intend, they prove an injury, a snare and a curse instead of a blessing.” (History of the Church, 5:31–32; see also1 Corinthians 14:1–25.)"My question is:What is the evangelical explanation for speaking in unknown tongues, how is it justified through the scriptures, and how is it different that what we read about in early church history.
Coreyb Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 There are several, but having discussed this practice with many pentecostals (who are well know for speaking in tongues), many see the gift of tongues as a/the sign or manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Some believe that being born again must include speaking in tongues, and is therefore necessary for salvation, but this seems to be a minority view in my observation. Many believe that the "tongue" spoken is the language of angels in heaven and some believe that it is the language spoken prior to the mix up at the tower of Babel.
Freedom Posted July 20, 2014 Author Posted July 20, 2014 But what is there doctrinal justification for this? I cannot find any evidence to justify this practice in the bible.
BCSpace Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) The only Bible example I know of is the Day of Pentecost in which the other tongues spoken were real languages. The Bible says speaking in tongues is for a sign to those who don't believe or for personal edification, not for salvation. Those who place a premium on speaking in tongues and who wish to justify a tongue spoken that no one can understand will use 1 Cor 14:2. However, the verses following show that the Bible places the premium on interpretation, that everyone understand what is being said. Edited July 20, 2014 by BCSpace
Freedom Posted July 20, 2014 Author Posted July 20, 2014 My view is that we must rely on the day of Pentecost as the interpretation of the doctrine since this is the only application of the gift of tongues recorded in scripture. So i look at 1 Cor 14:2 as someone speaking in a language that is unknown to those around them but there is no justification to assume it refers to an otherworldly language. If someone says a prayer in Russian, when they are the only person who speaks Russian, they are edifying themselves since nobody else will understand the prayer. This may not be what it means, but if all we have to go on is the bible, we are left with only this conclusion in my opinion.
cinepro Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) I think this quote from Teryl Givens is pertinent: I think there's no question, just as the gifts faded in the primitive Church, so there seems to be a diminishment of the spiritual manifestations and gifts in the restored Church. To some extent, that's a function of any church that becomes institutionalized...normatized over time. And to some extent that was a deliberate strategy on the part of Church leaders who wanted to de-emphasize spiritual gifts.I think it's a natural process, I think Mormons have accommodated themselves in some ways by changing the lexicon of scriptural resources that they use to identify or define the nature of spiritual experience. For example, instead of focusing on those Book of Mormon episodes where we have angelic visitations or interaction with angelic beings, we emphasize those verses that originally were given to Joseph Smith to describe the translation process, that have to do with feelings and impressions and stupors of thought.And that has become the template, if you will, for revelation. So that's one way Mormons have accommodated themselves to a less charismatic church.(15:18) Early Church members were familiar with "glossolalia" or speaking in unknown tongues. Here's what one late 19th century LDS had to say about it: James X. Allen, an early Utah physician, expressed his concerns in an Improvement Era article entitled "Passing of the Gift of Tongues":I was somewhat startled a few days ago, while in conversation with a young brother who had just returned from a mission to Scandinavia, by hearing him remark that he had never in his life heard anyone speak in tongues.... He has filled an honorable mission, and is today strong in the faith, and yet, he has never heard and experienced one of the most common gifts of the gospel, as enjoyed years ago.The remark was somewhat of a shock to me; because in the early days of the Church--where I was reared—there were so many of the Saints who enjoyed the gifts, and there were none among my acquaintances who had not heard the sweet sound of the gift of tongues. Many times there would be both speaking and singing in tongues, in the same sacrament meeting. The interpretation of tongues was equally as common as the tongues themselves. In fact, we were wont to regard the speaking in tongues, the interpretation of tongues, the relating of dreams and prophesying, as an essential part of the latter-day gospel.If men now think they can get along without the gifts of the gospel, may not the time come when they may believe they can get along without its ordinances? (Allen 1904, 109, 111)Dialogue, Vol.24, No.1, p.25Also this: We saw brother Joseph Smith and had a glorious time; during which Brother Brigham spoke in tongues before Joseph, this being the first time he (Joseph) had heard anyone speak in tongues. He (Joseph) rose up and testified that the gift was from God, and then the gift fell upon him and he spoke in tongues himself. He afterwards declared it was the pure, or Adamic language that he spoke. Soon after this the gift of tongues commenced in the Church at Kirtland generally.(Life of Heber C Kimball, 28) Edited July 20, 2014 by cinepro 3
Tiki Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 "The purpose of the gift of tongues is to teach the gospel to others."https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-33?lang=eng&query=Joseph+smith+speaking+in+tonguesThe Prophet spoke at an 1834 conference of elders: “Joseph Smith then gave an explanation of the gift of tongues, that it was particularly instituted for the preaching of the Gospel to other nations and languages, but it was not given for the government of the Church.”6“As to the gift of tongues, all we can say is, that in this place, we have received it as the ancients did: we wish you, however, to be careful lest in this you be deceived. … Satan will no doubt trouble you about the gift of tongues, unless you are careful; you cannot watch him too closely, nor pray too much. May the Lord give you wisdom in all things.”7“I read the 13th chapter of First Corinthians [at a meeting held on December 26, 1841], also a part of the 14th chapter, and remarked that the gift of tongues was necessary in the Church; … the gift of tongues by the power of the Holy Ghost in the Church, is for the benefit of the servants of God to preach to unbelievers, as on the day of Pentecost.”8“Tongues were given for the purpose of preaching among those whose language is not understood; as on the day of Pentecost, etc., and it is not necessary for tongues to be taught to the Church particularly, for any man that has the Holy Ghost, can speak of the things of God in his own tongue as well as to speak in another; for faith comes not by signs, but by hearing the word of God.”9“The gift of tongues by the power of the Holy Ghost in the Church, is for the benefit of the servants of God to preach to unbelievers.”“Be not so curious about tongues, do not speak in tongues except there be an interpreter present; the ultimate design of tongues is to speak to foreigners, and if persons are very anxious to display their intelligence, let them speak to such in their own tongues. The gifts of God are all useful in their place, but when they are applied to that which God does not intend, they prove an injury, a snare and a curse instead of a blessing.”10“We have also had brethren and sisters who have had the gift of tongues falsely; they would speak in a muttering, unnatural voice, and their bodies be distorted … ; whereas, there is nothing unnatural in the Spirit of God.”11“Speak not in the gift of tongues without understanding it, or without interpretation. The devil can speak in tongues; the adversary will come with his work; he can tempt all classes; can speak in English or Dutch. Let no one speak in tongues unless he interpret, except by the consent of the one who is placed to preside; then he may discern or interpret, or another may.”12“If you have a matter to reveal, let it be in your own tongue; do not indulge too much in the exercise of the gift of tongues, or the devil will take advantage of the innocent and unwary. You may speak in tongues for your own comfort, but I lay this down for a rule, that if anything is taught by the gift of tongues, it is not to be received for doctrine.”13
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 I have attended a few evangelical services where people would stand up and start speaking in tongues. To me it seemed to be babbling, repeating the same syllables over and over the way many people do when pretending to speak a different language. That is the way I perceive it anyways and I do not doubt that my own doctrinal biases have tainted my observing skills. The only record of speaking in tongues recorded in the bible is when the apostles spoke in the languages of those present. I am not aware of any biblical examples of speaking a mysterious dialect that nobody understood. In the early years of the church, there are records of people speaking in unknown tongues and another person would stand to interpret it but such a manifestations stopped occurring within a generation as far as I am aware. One of the institute manuals states the following "D&C 46:24–25. The Gift of Tongues This is one of the most misunderstood gifts. The Lord may grant the gift of speaking in tongues to give an unusual message or communicate with those who speak a different language, as on the day of Pentecost (seeActs 2:4–12). But newly-called missionaries who quickly grasp a foreign language may also be experiencing the gift of tongues. Because this gift is often counterfeited and used to deceive, the Prophet Joseph Smith warned: “Be not so curious about tongues, do not speak in tongues except there be an interpreter present; the ultimate design of tongues is to speak to foreigners, and if persons are very anxious to display their intelligence, let them speak to such in their own tongues. The gifts of God are all useful in their place, but when they are applied to that which God does not intend, they prove an injury, a snare and a curse instead of a blessing.” (History of the Church, 5:31–32; see also1 Corinthians 14:1–25.)" My question is: What is the evangelical explanation for speaking in unknown tongues, how is it justified through the scriptures, and how is it different that what we read about in early church history. I have never been able to understand how EV's could read that part of Corinthians and still believe that speaking in tongues is of God. 1
CV75 Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 I think this quote from Teryl Givens is pertinent: Early Church members were familiar with "glossolalia" or speaking in unknown tongues. Here's what one late 19th century LDS had to say about it: Also this:I think this is a great opportunity for you to cultivate this gift and let us all know how well it went!
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) ME:Can you speak in tongues? EV:Yes, I can. ME:Can you do it right now? EV: Jibby jabba jubba. Gobeda gibada goobada. (At this point I almost burst out laughing it was really quite funny.)ME:What did you just say? EV:I dunno, the Spirit uttereth the things of the heart. ME:OK, Ill see you there. What is the point in speaking in tongues if no one even know what is being said. EV:(Silence......) Edited July 21, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 There was someone speaking in tongues last night on a famous game show on national tv to win a challenge as part of the game. She lost the challenge personally, but her team won, so she started speaking in tongues again because they had won. So does that mean that God rewarded her speaking in tongues or condemned it?
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 And why are there no defenders of the practice posting?
Ahab Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Just think, if Paul had used the words "speaking in a language other than a person's own native language" instead of using the phrase "speaking in tongues" then most people, if not all, would know what he meant, but now a lot of people don't understand what he meant, even though he was speaking or writing in his own native language.Just more proof to me that God has a sense of humor.
CV75 Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) And why are there no defenders of the practice posting?Bolape ag casarma adagita conisa t... ...Par barinu ag oreri Edited July 21, 2014 by CV75
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 And why are there no defenders of the practice posting?I defend speaking in tongues. It is something that happens. Just not the way that certain churches believe. Paul, tells us that it profit us nothing to speak in tongues if no one can understand it. sytehem kido, sido goeo!! 1
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Bolape ag casarma adagita conisa t... ...Par barinu ag oreriOh Yeah? Well &%$!# !! to you fella!
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Why do we ask missionaries who are called to foreign missions to bear their testimonies in their mission language? Does that edify anyone?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Why do we ask missionaries who are called to foreign missions to bear their testimonies in their mission language? Does that edify anyone?Not sure we ask them to do that but they do seem to do it a lot. For the most part I am not really edified when they do that.
mnn727 Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Why do we ask missionaries who are called to foreign missions to bear their testimonies in their mission language? Does that edify anyone?We have a large number of people that understand Spanish (this is Texas after all) and many missionary serve in Spanish speaking areas, so yeah.But yes, I have felt the Spirit when someone bore their testimony in Norwegian for example. Didn't understand a word, but I still felt the Spirit. Edited July 21, 2014 by mnn727
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 We have a large number of people that understand Spanish (this is Texas after all) and many missionary serve in Spanish speaking areas, so yeah.But yes, I have felt the Spirit when someone bore their testimony in Norwegian for example. Didn't understand a word, but I still felt the Spirit.Well me too, and actually that was kind of a trap I laid trying to get someone to say what you said. The reason was, if we can feel the spirit when someone speaks in a foreign language, how is that different from speaking in "tongues" that no one understands? Just stirring the pot a little...
Ahab Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Well me too, and actually that was kind of a trap I laid trying to get someone to say what you said. The reason was, if we can feel the spirit when someone speaks in a foreign language, how is that different from speaking in "tongues" that no one understands?Just stirring the pot a little... I can sometimes feel the presence of the Holy Spirit when somebody does that but that doesn't necessarily mean I understand what that person is saying. And sometimes I even feel edified by the Spirit, feeling comforted and at peace, while enjoying seeing other people sitting there and watching the person speak in that tongue, whatever it is, and whatever that person is saying. I like how Italian sounds, for example, even though I don't understand most of it.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Well me too, and actually that was kind of a trap I laid trying to get someone to say what you said. The reason was, if we can feel the spirit when someone speaks in a foreign language, how is that different from speaking in "tongues" that no one understands? Just stirring the pot a little... Well, at least one person knows what is being said at the RM testimony. That might be why you feel the spirit. Maybe I just don't buy in to the whole "speaking in tongues no one knows" bit. I just don't know what the point of that would be. I mean, I am willing to entertain that I am wrong about our EV friends that do speak in tongues on a regular basis. I just don't know why there is a reason for that. I did read the part about BY speaking in the Adamic language. And it seemed to be normal for people to do that in Kirkland, but to what point? Edited July 21, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
CV75 Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Well, at least one person knows what is being said at the RM testimony. That might be why you feel the spirit. Maybe I just don't buy in to the whole "speaking in tongues no one knows" bit. I just don't know what the point of that would be. I mean, I am willing to entertain that I am wrong about our EV friends that do speak in tongues on a regular basis. I just don't know why there is a reason for that. I did read the part about BY speaking in the Adamic language. And it seemed to be normal for people to do that in Kirkland, but to what point?Perhaps it is a form of quickening or transfiguration to endure the presence of God, except the change into a higher and more pure and undefiled state is psycholinguistic instead of physical. Those who understand each other in this state may be witnessing to each other more perfectly. I think we can feel the Spirit even if we do not understand the language, and this is a different gift or a different dynamic or aspect of the same gift than speaking the Adamic language or understanding the words of another language, or speaking it or learning it quickly, etc.
CV75 Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Oh Yeah? Well &%$!# !! to you fella! LOL I found an Enochian translator online; it means "There is none that can do it... they don't have a stone (interpreter/head)."
Stargazer Posted July 22, 2014 Posted July 22, 2014 Why do we ask missionaries who are called to foreign missions to bear their testimonies in their mission language? Does that edify anyone? Depends. After I came back from my mission, at our first family dinner my non-member father asked me to give the blessing on the food in my mission language. He wanted to hear me speak German, I guess, that's all. We normally didn't say "grace". I love to hear testimonies in the various mission languages, personally, and am always pleased when it is done. I've actually never heard anyone ask the missionary to bear testimony in their mission language -- it's always been something the missionary did from his or her own initiative. Although it would be somewhat pointless to give a long testimony. I did not bear testimony in German at my welcome home talk in Sacrament, by the way.
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