djones Posted July 18, 2014 Posted July 18, 2014 So do you think each world has it's own tempter/Satan or does Lucifer just go from world to world and that's his eternal job for each of Gods earths? I believe that each has it's own. Here's why. --W/out quoting the temple there are some hints in there that Satan is not the only one up to no good! --Question: A third of what? We know that a third of the hosts of heaven left and followed Lucifer. Ok...up to what point in time? God is always going to be creating worlds from now through eternity. So eventually all of the 2/3rds that were left in that war in heaven will have come to this earth or another one and will have moved on to resurrection. Then what? Will God's future spirits have another war in heaven? Or will he just say...."Well you can follow my proven plan or you can follow that idiot that rebelled a long time ago but who isn't here now to influence you one way or the other". --Nah...I don't think so. I think God creates billions of spirits for one particular earth. He teaches them the plan of salvation and then WHEN and only WHEN one of them decides to rise up and become a devil, that's what triggers the creation of a new world and now the system is in place and can move forward. Maybe statistically it always happens sooner or later. --Paradoxes....Satan still has agency. What if he just decided to stop being Satan? Not tempt anyone anymore. Not provide any opposition. Wouldn't that in and of itself thwart the plan? Of course to pull that off he'd have to convince all of the other devils to do the same thing. Maybe he won't ever do that though because the only little bit of pleasure he gets out of life is to cause pain in others (which is just what God needs for the opposition so it all works). Or...if he knows that this is his only chance to cause havoc and that he won't be moving onto another world that creates a sense of urgency to cause as much destruction as possible. It's now or never. That would ensure that he won't give up and quit. He's taking down as many as he can in the short time he has. --Makes you wonder what Satan was thinking. Did he really believe he could take down God? Did he know what other Satan's had done before him and that they failed? Maybe he full well did know and just didn't care. His pride was so bad that he'd rather lose it all in as big of a fashion as possible VS humbling himself and doing what God wanted. He obviously was a very good salesman and had a lot of followers. That in and of itself must provide him with some pleasure, feelings of success, etc. He didn't want to give that up to conform to the system. Who the heck knows. Brother Brigham seems to think that each earth has it's own though... JD 14:70--He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Is it so on any other earth? On every earth. How many earths are there? I observed this morning that you may take the particles of matter composing this earth, and if they could be enumerated they would only be a beginning to the number of the creations of God; and they are continually coming into existence, and undergoing changes and passing through the same experience that we are passing through. Sin is upon every earth that ever was created, and if it was not so, I would like some philosophers to let us know how people can be exalted to become sons of God, and enjoy a fullness of glory with the Redeemer. Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof, in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through.
MiserereNobis Posted July 18, 2014 Posted July 18, 2014 In the LDS worldview, how is it that Satan and his followers have so much power? Traveling from world to world, whispering in everyone's ears, knowing exactly what temptation you have a weakness for, etc. In Catholicism, Satan is a fallen angel, and angels are a different class of being than humans and thus have powers beyond a human soul. Super intelligence, incorporeality, etc. This grants the fallen angels the ability to be /really/ bad. C. S. Lewis pointed out that the greater ability a being has to be a good, the greater its ability to be bad. An example would be the differences between good and bad chickens as compared to good and bad dogs as compared to good and bad humans and then on to good and bad angels. Lucifer was one of the best angels and therefore is the worst devil. St. Michael the archangel, defend us in battle... 2
mfbukowski Posted July 18, 2014 Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) In the LDS worldview, how is it that Satan and his followers have so much power? Traveling from world to world, whispering in everyone's ears, knowing exactly what temptation you have a weakness for, etc. In Catholicism, Satan is a fallen angel, and angels are a different class of being than humans and thus have powers beyond a human soul. Super intelligence, incorporeality, etc. This grants the fallen angels the ability to be /really/ bad. C. S. Lewis pointed out that the greater ability a being has to be a good, the greater its ability to be bad. An example would be the differences between good and bad chickens as compared to good and bad dogs as compared to good and bad humans and then on to good and bad angels. Lucifer was one of the best angels and therefore is the worst devil. St. Michael the archangel, defend us in battle...I got sick once from some bad chicken. Is that what you mean? I forgot to ask her about her nature though. It was probably a natural chicken who hadn't overcome her nature yet and was still an enemy to God. She was certainly not a friend to me. Edited July 18, 2014 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted July 18, 2014 Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Or maybe it could be devil Donald Duck sitting on each of our shoulders? Edited July 18, 2014 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted July 18, 2014 Posted July 18, 2014 Do all satans share one being- kind of like the trinity?
MiserereNobis Posted July 19, 2014 Posted July 19, 2014 She was certainly not a friend to me. "Ran into the devil, babe, he loaned me twenty bills,I spent the night in Utah in a cave up in the hills.Set out runnin' but I take my time, a friend of the devil is a friend of mine,If I get home before daylight, I just might get some sleep tonight." When in Utah, if you want to avoid the devil, hide in the hills!
BCSpace Posted July 19, 2014 Posted July 19, 2014 --Question: A third of what? We know that a third of the hosts of heaven left and followed Lucifer. Ok...up to what point in time? God is always going to be creating worlds from now through eternity. So eventually all of the 2/3rds that were left in that war in heaven will have come to this earth or another one and will have moved on to resurrection. Then what? Will God's future spirits have another war in heaven? Or will he just say...."Well you can follow my proven plan or you can follow that idiot that rebelled a long time ago but who isn't here now to influence you one way or the other". --Nah...I don't think so. I think God creates billions of spirits for one particular earth. He teaches them the plan of salvation and then WHEN and only WHEN one of them decides to rise up and become a devil, that's what triggers the creation of a new world and now the system is in place and can move forward. Maybe statistically it always happens sooner or later. Are they always male? Do they have to be male? Can you imagine a female standing up against God's plan only to be ignored because she is, well...female?
Calm Posted July 19, 2014 Posted July 19, 2014 Are they always male? Do they have to be male? Can you imagine a female standing up against God's plan only to be ignored because she is, well...female? And how often is it the male who decides to be the first to partake the forbidden fruit and how would that change the consequences?
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2014 Posted July 19, 2014 "Ran into the devil, babe, he loaned me twenty bills,I spent the night in Utah in a cave up in the hills.Set out runnin' but I take my time, a friend of the devil is a friend of mine,If I get home before daylight, I just might get some sleep tonight." When in Utah, if you want to avoid the devil, hide in the hills!Ah yes, the wonderful and profound theology of St. Jerry of Garcia! 1
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2014 Posted July 19, 2014 Eve was clearly a feminist. She made the most important decision of all time and didn't even consult her husband. And a perfect decision it was! 2
BCSpace Posted July 19, 2014 Posted July 19, 2014 And how often is it the male who decides to be the first to partake the forbidden fruit and how would that change the consequences? What if Eve, knowing her husband's mindset and thought processes, made the collective decision on her own knowing Adam would agree because they were one? I think it's highly likely the butterfly stamped on this one for those of you familiar with Kipling.
Doctrine 612 Posted July 19, 2014 Posted July 19, 2014 In some jewish traditions satan works for god as his prosecution attorney. Not being a person of temptation, but holding are wrongs against us.
MiserereNobis Posted July 19, 2014 Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) Ah yes, the wonderful and profound theology of St. Jerry of Garcia! Or, to go to Buddhism: "I had already seen the scary bodhisattva grin of Mahajerry beaming down from the stage, urging me to wake up and find out that I was the eyes of the world." (From Erik Davis' article "The Paisley Gate") PS: How many Mormons are Deadheads...? Anyone go to the meetup on Thursday to see the sick Europe '72 video? Edited July 19, 2014 by MiserereNobis
Rob Osborn Posted July 19, 2014 Posted July 19, 2014 Each earth doesnt have a Satan. Satan is not required to bring about Gods plans. The logic is similar to this- we are commanded to build Zion wherever we are. This has been done before and Satan had no power there and that part of the earth was taken away and brougjt to where God resides. Let me ask- should society have porography available to tempt people to make them stronger or would we be stronger without its influence? Having evil never makes society better. Satan is a uniue situation in the history of the Gods and the countless worlds.
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2014 Posted July 19, 2014 Or, to go to Buddhism: "I had already seen the scary bodhisattva grin of Mahajerry beaming down from the stage, urging me to wake up and find out that I was the eyes of the world." (From Erik Davis' article "The Paisley Gate") PS: How many Mormons are Deadheads...? Anyone go to the meetup on Thursday to see the sick Europe '72 video?I have not found many Mormons to be fans of Hippies in general.I posted a few of my pics from my old days in a few places before and they generally cause major shocked guffaws because people think I have changed so much, but inside I am very much as I was in the old days. People don't realize how close a desire to keep "the man" out of your life and "doing your own thing" is related to being in the tea party. Tea party hippies? People don't get it for some reason, but it makes perfect sense to me! 1
janderich Posted July 19, 2014 Posted July 19, 2014 Each earth doesnt have a Satan. Satan is not required to bring about Gods plans. The logic is similar to this- we are commanded to build Zion wherever we are. This has been done before and Satan had no power there and that part of the earth was taken away and brougjt to where God resides. Let me ask- should society have porography available to tempt people to make them stronger or would we be stronger without its influence? Having evil never makes society better. Satan is a uniue situation in the history of the Gods and the countless worlds.Temptation, or the appearance that sin is desirable, is needed in order for a person to grow. Of course society does not need specific evils such as pornography to be better, but we do need evil to appear desirable and the opportunity to rise above it which promotes growth. Lehi teaches, "And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet the other bitter. ...Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other" (2 Ne 2:15-16). They had to be enticed by the sweet and the bitter or they could not act for themselves. And further, "... all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. ...wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery, doing no good, for they knew no sin" (2 Ne 2:22). Those who do not face and overcome opposition have no joy, for they do not know misery. Satan and his hosts are the ones who entice us through the natural man. If they did not entice us we would not desire to do contrary to God's will. So I believe he is needed. When the scriptures say Satan has no power over the earth, it simply means that each individual has risen above Satan's temptations and chosen good over evil. It does not mean that Satan was never needed as part of the plan.
Thinking Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 One Satan or many? :diablo: :diablo: :diablo: :diablo: :diablo: That about sums it up! 1
Robert F. Smith Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 In the LDS worldview, how is it that Satan and his followers have so much power? Traveling from world to world, whispering in everyone's ears, knowing exactly what temptation you have a weakness for, etc. In Catholicism, Satan is a fallen angel, and angels are a different class of being than humans and thus have powers beyond a human soul. Super intelligence, incorporeality, etc. This grants the fallen angels the ability to be /really/ bad. C. S. Lewis pointed out that the greater ability a being has to be a good, the greater its ability to be bad. An example would be the differences between good and bad chickens as compared to good and bad dogs as compared to good and bad humans and then on to good and bad angels. Lucifer was one of the best angels and therefore is the worst devil. St. Michael the archangel, defend us in battle...Amen, Brother.
Robert F. Smith Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 Each earth doesnt have a Satan. Satan is not required to bring about Gods plans. The logic is similar to this- we are commanded to build Zion wherever we are. This has been done before and Satan had no power there and that part of the earth was taken away and brougjt to where God resides. Let me ask- should society have porography available to tempt people to make them stronger or would we be stronger without its influence? Having evil never makes society better. Satan is a uniue situation in the history of the Gods and the countless worlds.So Lehi was wrong to insist that there must needs be opposition in all things? Because opposition and challenges never make people stronger? Adam & Eve would have been better off without any temptation. Then they would have remained in the Garden forever in perfect purity. No Fall. No Cherubim with flaming sword. No Restoration. No Redeemer. Right? So only Earthlings got it wrong. Right?
Rob Osborn Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 So Lehi was wrong to insist that there must needs be opposition in all things? Because opposition and challenges never make people stronger? Adam & Eve would have been better off without any temptation. Then they would have remained in the Garden forever in perfect purity. No Fall. No Cherubim with flaming sword. No Restoration. No Redeemer. Right? So only Earthlings got it wrong. Right?I am sure opposition and challwnges make us stronger. I just dont believe we need Satan to make us stronger. The scriptures speak of a day when Satan and his works will be destroyed. So ifSatan is so good for making us stronger then why is God in the process of trying to defeat and destroy him and his works? What then? What happens when Satan and his angels are destroyed? Will Gods works cease or will he just continue to people worlds without end? Satan is tjus not a requirement for Gods works to continue.
Freedom Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 I am sure opposition and challwnges make us stronger. I just dont believe we need Satan to make us stronger. The scriptures speak of a day when Satan and his works will be destroyed. So ifSatan is so good for making us stronger then why is God in the process of trying to defeat and destroy him and his works? What then? What happens when Satan and his angels are destroyed? Will Gods works cease or will he just continue to people worlds without end? Satan is tjus not a requirement for Gods works to continue.We only know what pertains to this world, and Satan is only doing here what he saw done on other worlds. We do not know the affairs of other worlds, we only know the destiny of souls send to this one.
djones Posted July 20, 2014 Author Posted July 20, 2014 I've always wondered if Satan were unique to our world as well. Our world is unique in that we got to have the Savior come here, maybe it's also unique in its wickedness and got Satan. Who knows.
VideoGameJunkie Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 I am very interested in knowing what goes on in other worlds.
janderich Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 I've always wondered if Satan were unique to our world as well. Our world is unique in that we got to have the Savior come here, maybe it's also unique in its wickedness and got Satan. Who knows.Of course, Brigham Young disagrees with the one Savior model also. Each world has a Savior, a Satan, and an Adam and Eve.
Freedom Posted July 20, 2014 Posted July 20, 2014 I am very interested in knowing what goes on in other worlds.Be obedient, and be patient. You too soon will know. It will be amazing, but I am afraid that our knew found knowledge will dissolution us such that all science fiction movies ever made will be thrown out. They will be so far from reality that it will be embarrassing.
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